Author Topic: Biodiesel Use  (Read 14734 times)

Edward Buker

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Biodiesel Use
« on: June 24, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »
We have been traveling through a lot of states from Alabama on our way to Washington State and found ourselves having to pick up some fuel at a Pilot Station in Oregon yesterday. I saw a sticker on the pump that said the fuel could be B2 to B20. We picked up about an equal amount to what was already in the tank and I chose not to fill up not having any biodiesel experience. This is the first time (knowingly) that we have met up with Biodiesel. I had them check the bill of laden for the fuel and it was actually B10 that was added to the tank. With the fuel that was already in my tank I now running about B5 or 5% biodiesel.

The question for the forum is what has the experience been with biodiesel? Have others out here used B5 to B10 and has it caused any issues? Is the generator and Aqua Hot burner also fine with biodiesel? Our next states are Washington, Oregon, and California and it would seem like it may be hard to avoid Biodiesel all the time....

Thanks Ed

Gerald Farris

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 04:17:55 PM »
Ed,
There are four states that mandate a biodiesel blend of from 2% to 20% in all highway diesel fuel. The percentage of biodiesel in the blend will vary with the time of year (higher in the summer), and the amount of biodiesel that can be produced in the state or multistate region.

The states that require a biodiesel blend are Minnesota, Washington, Pennsylvania, and Oregon with the Portland area having a higher requirement than the rest of the state. So you can see that if you travel extensively in the US, you can not avoid biodiesel.

I have used biodiesel with a blend of as high as 30%, and I could not tell any difference in coach or generator performance. I can not tell about Aqua Hot performance, since I do not have one and I do not run my Hurricane in the summer (with rare exception) when I was using the higher percentage blend. The only concerns that I have with biodiesel is that the higher percentages do not lubricate the fuel system as well as # 2 diesel does. However since I only use one or two tanks a year of biodiesel, I am not overly concerned.  

It seems to me that we are going to be forced to burn food stocks as fuel (ethanol from corn or biodiesel from vegetable oil) until the politicians see the need for more offshore oil production and the usage of the huge natural gas reserves that we have as motor fuel. However that is a Texan's viewpoint on the situation that as I know, is not universally accepted.

Gerald  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 04:28:35 PM by 235 »

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 04:58:31 PM »
Thanks Gerald.

Seems that you have led the way here using up to B30 and if you have not seen a problem then I will assume that I will not either, especially in the B5 range. I did check the visible screen filter and it is clean after running 80 miles with this blend.

 This is one of those things in life that I will try and avoid when I can and use the blended fuel if I have to.

 I also think that the U.S. should produce all the oil that it can from drilling rather than import more. I was never a fan of Ethanol and its use has affected food prices and feed stock prices. Ethanol does not have the energy that the base gas stock does. I have a marine test report where the 10% ethanol blend and non ethanol blend was used in the same craft, at the same RPM, over the same course, under the same conditions, with precise measuring instruments. After repeated runs the results were a 10% drop in mileage with the Ethanol blend which is about what I have observed in my car. The wide open throttle test was also revealing in that they lost 300 to 400 RPM of performance. Adding 10% ethanol and then getting a 10% drop in mileage is a rediculous waste of our resources. Just does not make sense....

Don't get me started on allowing Wall St. into the fuel speculation game either....

Later Ed

  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 05:19:05 PM by 910 »

LEAH DRAPER

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 06:14:05 PM »
Right on Ed, it is really a stupid idea!

Robert Mathis

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 10:11:32 PM »
I'm not nearly as concerned about a possible loss of power as much as I am about clogging filters or ruining seal. So far, I have had to rebuilt the carbs on two of my Honda 4 stroke outboards because of the damage done by ethanol blended fuel. My neioghbor has had to rebuild his carbs twice and his gas tank is degrading from the ethanol. My of my friends have had serious fuel filter problems on their inboard boats caused by "Biodiesel" dissolving built up in their tanks. I now have converted one of my portable 110 gallon tanks from deisel to gas to keep non-ethanol gas available for our boats and other gasoline powered small engines. I will aviod biodiesel as much as possible.

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 06:43:36 PM »
Robert, thanks for the info. I know the marine industry issue with ethanol. Many of the fuel tanks that were glassed had ethanol slowly dissolve some of the resins. Material incompatibility....metal tanks made out better. Some carbs have had problems with the blend as you have seen also.

I will  avoid biodiesel when I can. Better to go with what the engine was designed to use whenever possible. I was so focused on the fuel stop, driving the route, and getting through a long day on the road that I did not notice the bioblend little 2 inch by 2 inch sign placed low on the pump until after 60 gallons had been pumped. They certainly were not advertising bioblend very well...

Later Ed

LEAH DRAPER

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 08:47:00 PM »
Does anyone know what CAT's position is with  use of biodiesel?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 03:22:31 AM by 14 »

Joel Ashley

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 09:28:21 PM »
Leah, Richard Ames referred us to their position on biodiesel in a previous thread:  
Quote from: Richard And Babs Ames
http://catrvclub.org/new_fuel_recommendations[1].pdf This is the CAT side of the question.

Basically, CAT is neither pro nor con on the subject.  But they do proffer cautions and commentary on the characteristics of biodiesel.  The use of various fuel types they say does not affect the warranty, unless an engine failure is attributable to the fuel  :-/, which I take to mean the use of a fuel that doesn't meet technical guidelines.  You'll find most blended fuels do meet regulated and prescribed guidelines.  If CAT denied a warranty claim on the basis of an unprescribed fuel, then I would assume one would have a basis to sue the fuel supplier for costs, assuming the supplier was legally required to meet such guidelines.

CAT mentions also that blends with biodiesel content over 5% get into the realm of being problematic, from CAT's point of view.  So far,  Oregon is at 5%, and I don't know which others are also at 5% or higher (refer to Gerald's post above).  CAT's cautions revolve around biodiesel's 5-7% worse mileage than diesel, due to less energy content, and its higher attractiveness for water and greater tendency to gel.  My take on that is that as long as standard additives are used, either by the supplier or the owner, algae and gelling shouldn't be any more of a problem with 5% blend than pure diesel.  The mileage loss is also relatively insignificant when you factor in the 5-7% loss mitigated by the fact that only 2-5% of your fuel is affected;  ie, out of a 100 gallon tank full, no more than 5 gallons of it could suffer from the small energy deficit.  That's a mileage loss of about 0.25%, an unnoticeable drop from, say, 7mpg to 6.98mpg.  But factor in blends of 10-30% as others mention running into in prior posts, the mileage affect could be noticed;  one then has to wonder just where the "green" aspect of biodiesel is for our country if we have to buy more fuel more often.

Some car dealers have complained of additional smoking and noticeable mileage loss on their vehicles, such as Ford diesel trucks, etc.  Generally, I think the jury is still out overall on biodiesel.  But if very many more states mandate blends higher than 5%, I think there will be quite a stink (pun intended  ::)).

-Joel
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 09:39:41 PM by 77 »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Gerald Farris

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 10:31:40 PM »
The last report that I read on biodiesel from Cat stated that up to B30 was acceptable on engines built in 2006 and earlier for RVs and up to B20 for engines built in 2007 and latter would likely be recommended after more testing.

This report was dated February 2008.
http://www.biodieselconference.org/2008/post/secure/_xlI10oO/29_User%20Abi-Akar.pdf

Gerald

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2011, 01:50:18 AM »
Gerald,

Thanks for making that report available....I could not redily find a Cat position link on Biodiesel. Looks like Cat has done adequate testing to verify most available blends that we would run into. My net is I will try and avoid biodiesel and use it if I have to....at least for now.

Thanks Ed
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 04:29:11 PM by 910 »

LEAH DRAPER

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2011, 03:02:06 PM »
Joel and Gerald
Thank you for your information---you guys are such a wealth of information, am glad to hear that fuel (bio-D) in Oregon is only at 5% as it makes it less of a concern when traveling to Bend to visit BCS!
Thanks again guys!

Gerald Farris

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2011, 04:30:01 PM »
Leah,
In Oregon the exception is the Portland area (Oregon's liberal heartland) where it is mandated that diesel for highway use has be at least a 10% (B10) blend of biodiesel.  

Here is an article from the American Trucking Association that list the biodiesel mandates around the country as of now.
http://www.truckline.com/AdvIs.....20January%202010.pdf

However keep in mind that these mandates are minimal biodiesel percentages, and that some retailers may be carrying a higher percentage than the minimal as I have encountered before.

Also remember that 100% biodiesel has about 5% to 7% less heat value than diesel with the lubrication and filter clogging problems not withstanding, and therefore your fuel mileage and power will drop accordingly. A B10 blend will drop your fuel mileage and power about .5% to .7% which is not much, but every little bit counts.

Gerald

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2011, 04:45:19 PM »
Leah,

I purchased B10 at a Pilot in Ontario Oregon. What concerned me the most (besides not having any biodiesel experience) is that the pump had a little sticker on it that said fuel may be B2 through B20. The individual pumping the fuel had no idea what level of biodiesel blend that he was pumping. I went inside and had them look up the bill of lading and found that it was currently  B10. The manager indicated that blend was not a constant and it depends on what was being trucked in from the supplier at the time.

I would not assume that you are buying B5 in Oregon. My guess is that B10 is more common given they have to blend that mix for Portland anyway. It would appear that B10 should not be an issue for us but it is good to know what you are fueling up with just in case there is an issue.

Later Ed

Tom and Pam Brown

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2011, 07:11:53 PM »
my only concern about biodiesel would be how long has the fuel been in the ground.

I would make sure i bought it at a high volume fuel location to make sure there is little chance of algae growth in the undeground tanks.  I would also make sure i had spare filters just in case or contaminated fuel.
Otherwise drive on french fries!

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel Use
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 08:54:20 PM »
When you get down to it, what we get from the ground is really biodiesel. It just has been aged like fine whisky and wine. Maybe we are trying to "drink" the new stuff before it's time....

Later Ed