Author Topic: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing  (Read 13245 times)

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2021, 05:05:58 PM »
Carl,
       I think it was the Forum Moderator / Hurricane expert, Mr. Farris, who in a post months/years back that detailed the temps that the Comfort Hot (CH) would be effective, definitely not as effective as the Hurricane.  If I recall right, the CH was iffy at below freezing temps; satisfactory at ~40 degrees.  Recently, on 8 to 30 degree days, my limping CH (only 1 of 2 elements working) barely kept the coach temp above freezing.  On our 1 (& only) sub-freezing holiday trip years back, we stayed warm using radiator style space heaters as I had no handle on the workings of the Hurricane or CH.

nothing like a couple electric radiators in a pinch albeit still trying to figure out if what I have in the heater compart is a "comfort hot" or "aqua" or what. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be an electric DHW heater but because of the heat exchanger to warm DHW from the hurricane it can provide some heating as well if you run the heating circulation pump with that hydronic circuit running through the DHW heater.

From what I can see on my coach there is some kind of heat exchanger in the electric tank as well as an additional plate heat exchanger installed just to the outside of it. not really sure if that is meant for 'instant' DHW if the tank is leaking and you shut it off or why the hurricane is piped both through the DHW tank and what is apparently a DHW plate heat exchanger.

I'm not sure what the thermostat for the DHW is but I would imagine that (as well as total BTU input from the resistance elements) are the choke point for electric hydronic cabin heat. IF your DHW is set around 125 or even 130, you're going to loose maybe 10 degrees from the heat exhanger so you are only putting out 115 to 120 whereas the hurricane is a direct heater of the hydronic fluid and IIRC the operating temperature limit on the hurricane is in the 140 or 150 range with a 160 or 165 cutout. I read this somewhere in the manual and thought I had posted the numbers already but can't find 'em at this moment. @Eric_Maclean said approx. 180. I think that is actually hotter than the manual reset overtemp cutout. But the point is that the hurricane is perhaps 20 degrees hotter at least than the DHW and the water is directly circulated through the heating pumps, not accessing them through a heat exchanger with consequent temperature drop.

140 to 160 are rational operating temperatures in the HVAC business for fan coil units which is what the buses are heated with. cooler temps than that require a lot of  radiant mass  and baseboard (non actively blown heat) requires hotter temps generally (although any of these can work lower temps when outdoor temps are higher, thus resulting in possibly adequate 'Comfort Hot' performance above freezing). The other piece of grief to consider here is how the 'basement' heater keeps up with any of these sources. It's one thing if you gotta wear your coat in the cabin. It's another if the water or waste freezes . . .

Almost makes me wish that the 'basement heat' were on a separate loop just to give all options, engine, comfort hot or hurricane, to protect the water and waste systems from freezing. More custom work for yours truly going against the KISS paradigm or maybe KIOS (keep it original stupid) advocated by @Steve_Huber. Well, right now this is all on the drawing board and subject to critique of the collective engineering team here.

thank you

Fred Brooks

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2021, 06:30:52 PM »
   Thayden, Take a picture of the Domestic Hot Water heater and post it after reducing it down to under 300kb. We should be able to answer your questions. Fred
Fred & Cindy Brooks
2000 Marquis, Jasper
C-12 Wild Cat (U of A)
2014 Honda CRV
Proverbs 3: 5 & 6

Jim Gillespie

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2021, 12:06:18 AM »
Hi Thayden,
       The Comfort Hot (CH) is not the same as the DHW heater.  It heats the DHW through the hoses mentioned but the CH is normally under the bed on the port/driver's side high on the wall.  It is ~4 gallons & replaces the smaller stock metal expansion tank.  I guess it's like a big enclosed radiator with no coils with heating elements instead.  It does use a 7# radiator cap & has a plastic expansion tank nearby.  The coolant goes from the circulating pump to the Hurricane to the DHW then flows to the rear to the 2 valves to control summer/winter setting then back forward, if in winter mode, to the 2 heating zones (4 coils/fans) & the basement coil/fan.  Then, it returns to the engine heat exchanger to the CH & finally back to the circulating pump.  It's just 1 long run of coolant being pushed at ~4gpm.  The engine heat exchanger, CH & Hurricane provide the heat, potentially all 3 at 1 time, or any combination.  The other parts on this long run use the heat.  There is no need for a seperate loop for the basement.  If you want just the basement to energize just set your upstair's thermostats in Furnace mode & the temps set down low (~40-50 degrees) so they don't come on.
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Jim Gillespie

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2021, 12:48:04 AM »
Finally able to look at my Hurricane this afternoon to address the original issue of this post:  Main fuse blowing.  Cleaned the fuel nozzle & it's stem with 30# air pressure, which I don't think were clogged.  Started the Hurricane to see the nozzle mist: proper cone spray.  Checked the air compressor air flow:  OK.  Dropped the exhaust pipe but very clean, no buildup/blockage.  Put a stronger 15 amp fuse in since you can, alternatively, bypass the safety features per the manual for 5 minutes.  The 15A did not blow but there was a lot of white smoke for ~2 minutes while also bleeding the fuel for air (blew the hose out beforehand as it was clogged from a dirt dobber).  Ran for ~5 minutes & felt the wires for heat, all fine.  Put the correct size 10A fuse back in & it fired back up & didn't blow the fuse.  Heated up to 180 degrees & shut off, as normal.  What was the exact problem causing the fuse to blow?  I don't exactly know as I couldn't test too much more between each step above as I was down from 15 fuses to 3.  Was the excessive white smoke just from condensation?

Thanks for the help & other topics discussed in this thread. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 11:32:05 AM by Jim Gillespie »
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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2021, 01:58:59 AM »
Jim,
Glad to hear you got it working. White smoke is most often caused by unburned fuel.
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2021, 03:30:05 PM »
back from a sunday under the bus.

cannot find removable panel to access 'basement' fan. Realized the back wall of the carpeted basement that runs lengthwise with the bus butts up against the slider 'basement', so you can see all along the outside of that wall without removing it by crawling under the bus and I don't see anything there by way of fan and very few wires and mechnicals for obvious reasons because the slider moves and the main trunk of supply to it goes up over the waste tanks into the bottom of the barthroom vanity.

the crossways wall with the water pump and generator/shore power relay with the waste tanks right behind doesn't seem to have any noticeable fasteners when i groom the carpet. the pump 'box' itself covers a 'window' in that partition from the waste tanks but I'm not sure what that is meant to acccess. By opening the passengers side hatch for the waste tanks i can see pretty well that there is no fan alongside the tanks in that area, or much of anything else. And there is pipe and plywood wire routing template hung from the frame above the waste tanks with continuous maybe 2" holes drilled in it which allows me to see across the top of the waste tanks into the center between the frame rails, and at least in that area below the frames don't see anything.

 There is a very inconveniently located steel crossmember that prevents me from getting my head into the space between the frame rails at the back of the carpeted basement although I can stick a cellphone up there like a periscope and take a picture and didn't see the fan. I presume this large opening, about the height of the frame railes, maybe 12" is what is left on purpose to allow warm air to circulate to the water tank which is hung from the ceiling of the forward part of the carpeted basement and water pressure system at the back of the carpeted basement.

still interested in locating this fan if anyone can be more specific about it's location. I might be able to use a snake camera and/or make a designed access by cutting a portion of the basement wall if I knew where to cut.

as I said, this is just because I can't stand not being able to access stuff, but the fan is working. That, in a way, is part of the problem. At least during this cold season, it runs whenever the coach power is on regardless of whether the hurricane is turned on which seems a little odd to me. So I moved the lead from fan#3 to fan#4 for the time being which has no thermostat connected. I could put a cutout switch on the hurricane box for that fan or i could put a sensor inline that shuts it off unless there is warm water circulating to heating units. a few of the fan coils have these sensors, but they aren't hooked up. Again, knowledge of the system would allow me to operate this sensibly without automated switching by not turning up the thermostat until I know the hurricane is warm but automation is not a bad option for friends and family less familiar with the technical workings who might just turn up thermostat because they are cold, and blowing cold air around doesn't help at all, batteries or heat.

obviously i can leave this fan disconnected at the moment because the tanks and piping are drained. If it were parked outside with water in these systems i'd have to have some solution, either the hurricane or perhaps a space heater in the basement.

I'm also not clear since I can't find the basement fan whether there is an actual heating coil with it or it pulls air from the warmed cabin to the basement?

that's this weekend's novel. i will have pictures of the new exhaust next week. this copper union approach is working out perfectly and makes will allow hurricane to be easily removed for service, either just extended from the the vehicle by the length of the hoses which does allow access or disconnected for work on the bench from the hoses which would then require refilling/purging of this portion of the system. i'm contemplating the addition of unions (possible high quality brass hose fittings),,valves and purging ports to facilitate this for work on the hurricane or circulator pump while isolating the winter loop completely. (it does already valve off at one end in the heater compartment end, but not the other where it wyes in under the 'hood', i.e. at the front of the bus adjacent to the expansion tank.



Eric Maclean

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2021, 05:11:24 PM »
Theyden
As I mentioned on an earlier post on your coach you have to remove the wet bay wall ( the one with all the water supply valves )to gain access to the heating coil and thermostat
 if you remove the trim around the wet wall it can be moved outward far enough to disconnect the supply lines to gain access.

in there you will find the gray and black tanks and related plumbing .
above them you will see all the water supply lines heading to bath room kitchen etc. At the frame rail there is a plywood blocker with holes in it the same as the other side of the coach.
 up in the right top corner of this compartment the heating unit is mounted and the thermostat is close by .the coolant lines( pex ) run off the heat unit and over into the centre between the frame rails and run forward above the inverter hanging in the cargo bay and continue forward beside the water tank on to your hurricane.
The heating unit looks like this.
https://rvappliances.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/md/M320225/s1.pl?

The small access panel behind the water pump gains access to the tank sensor connections on the first tank.
If you remove that access panel you might get a picture of the heating unit at the back of that compartment.
Hope this helps
Eric
1997 Patriot Yorktown
3126-B
2009 Chevy HHR
Roadmaster falcon tow bar
Demco Air Force one tow brake.

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2021, 05:34:05 PM »
sorry, i misunderstood which panel in the 'basement' the fan was behind. I know you talked about the wet wall but I thought that was after mentioning the other wall but the concept of 'back' gets a bit turned around here as the 'back' of the basement could be the side away from the entry door or the side to the left which is toward the back of the bus.

in that picture, looks like the fan is suspended from the ceiling of the basement in that area and from your text it sounds like it is just outside the passenger side frame rail with connected plumbing (and presumably wiring) running back inbetween the frame rails. will dutifully check this out.  thanks again

Eric Maclean

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2021, 05:54:44 PM »
Yep that's the spot the unit is mounted on brackets so that it blows air toward the front of the coach.
1997 Patriot Yorktown
3126-B
2009 Chevy HHR
Roadmaster falcon tow bar
Demco Air Force one tow brake.

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2021, 02:00:52 AM »
Hi Thayden,
       The Comfort Hot (CH) is not the same as the DHW heater.  It heats the DHW through the hoses mentioned but the CH is normally under the bed on the port/driver's side high on the wall.  .

interesting. the DHW is a Seaward 6 gallon 120V above the hurricane in the heater compart. so if you mean the comfort hot would be located under the bed as in sleeping bed on the drivers side, that's where the radiator is but no comfort hot there that I have seen and the expansion tank for the heat is at the very front of the bus so i'm thinking this is an option i don't got.

and thanks to others who were offering help. i did take some pics last night underneath, but not the hot water heater.

the thing that makes me wonder on the DHW is it can run through the electric heater or through a plate heater that works off the hurricane (or engine heat if you like to shower while you're driving) but there also seems to be a heat exchanger in the tank because the hyrdonic loop from the hurricane detours through the Seward as well as through the plate heat exhanger that is tandemed to the DHW. just seems odd to me to see two heat exhangers for that purpose. backup? 45,000 btu is dicey for ondemand hot water. most ondemands for home use are at or over 100,000. and there isn't a priority function as most combined home heating and DHW systems have so the 45,000 is only really focused to the DHW if the winter loop is closed.

i'm sure that folks who are used to the system know what they can expect for performance, shower duration, etc. and whether to turn down the thermostats just before a shower and then turn them up when done, and are sensitive to filling waste tanks with long showers anyway unless on hookups.

Jim Gillespie

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2021, 02:53:50 AM »
Thayden, our coaches must be substantially different as your's has the much sought after side radiator.  I've attached pictures of my DHW, circulation pump, and Comfort Hot.  The manual stresses the circulation pump should be below the Hurricane but my pump was even with the top of the unit wedged between it & the wall. I remounted the pump underneath the bay beside the exhaust, adding cutoff valves.  The valves make draining, purging & refilling the coolant very easy with a 5gpm transfer pump w/ 3/4" fittings & a little extra hose.
Re pre-heating the engine, I thought maybe convection might heat the engine coolant from the engiine heat exchanger (mounted below the engine, port side) but no luck, as both engine hoses exit underneath the tank forward to ???.  The manual says "gravity" circulation but the engine coolant hoses don't warm at all.  So, I guess, on my coach it's a 1 way exchange:  only the hot coolant from a running engine heating the Hurricane coolant.  Does that mean the non-momentary "Pre Heat" switch on my dash is for energizing glow plugs? 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:09:55 AM by Jim Gillespie »

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2021, 01:09:23 PM »
The manual stresses the circulation pump should be below the Hurricane but my pump was even with the top of the unit wedged between it & the wall.

another weekend, back to the bus. interesting. i didn't read that deeply into the manual. the circulator on my coach is above the hurricane by maybe 8 inches. hmm, outside the bay, that's adventuresome. I like that the way it is currently plumbed actually allows me to slide the hurricane out of the bay for service without breaking into the hydronic circuit. you could have preserved that function although at some point all the spaghetti of hoses could be a liability. I could lower the pump within the compartment although not lower than the heater but even in the present location above the heater there has been no problem with circulation. Also considered a tee on the output of the pump with a riser and a vent in case of enough air getting to the pump to cause a problem. Although generally less of a problem on these relatively level hyrdonic circuits. I see problems with air on fan coils in 4 story buildings where the air is not trapped in the pump but in the fan coils at the top of the system, and run those systems at much higher pressure, e.g. 25  psi, to make up for that.

The general notion is sound to keep the pump low, as any air in the system which could cause cavitation and failure to circulate especially if any quantity migrated to the pump, tends to go to the highest spot in the system so that caution/direction in the manual would be especially pertinent depending where the rest of the heating system/water is located. That would seem to be why they designed their air style expansion tank at the highest point, i.e. as high as it can go at the front of the coach without blocking the windshield. And all the rest of the circulating loop to the fan coils is above the hurricane (and above the circulator even if it is mounted higher than the heater). The hurricane and engine heat exchanger are the lowest components in the system sitting on the floor of the heater compartment (at least as they came to me in this coach).

still working on responding to all the appreciated information and photos in your post but you can't see the original while replying so I'm posting this and then adding on.



« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 01:38:40 PM by Thayden Waltonen »

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2021, 01:21:25 PM »
Re pre-heating the engine, I thought maybe convection might heat the engine coolant from the engiine heat exchanger (mounted below the engine, port side) but no luck, as both engine hoses exit underneath the tank forward to ???.  The manual says "gravity" circulation but the engine coolant hoses don't warm at all.  So, I guess, on my coach it's a 1 way exchange:  only the hot coolant from a running engine heating the Hurricane coolant.  Does that mean the non-momentary "Pre Heat" switch on my dash is for energizing glow plugs?

so the hyrdro hot arrangement and heat engine heat exchanger are all mounted much closer to the engine on your model, so I can see where they might have thought that they could get some gravity, i.e. convection circulation, but that can be a complicated nettlesome problem. I did just post a couple very inexpensive 12V circulator style pumps rated for these temps on another thread about circulator not working and you could add one in the engine heat loop. I was looking for these as a possible low cost replacement for the OEM circulator on the patriot but they are also perfect for applications on several other vehicles I have where convection style block heaters are not circulating well enough to heat the engine. ironically, i would have preferred these to be also available in 120 as i have a cord to the vehicle to run the block heater in the first place , but i am usually charging the vehicle at the same time so a little 12V drain to run the pump could be acceptable.

don't know re the preheat switch. I haven't gotten that far.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 01:32:33 PM by Thayden Waltonen »

Thayden Waltonen

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2021, 01:31:53 PM »
http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10473.0;attach=10704;image



and thanks for the pics. your electric DHW setup is identical to the one i've got except in one respect. the crossover tee where the cold water feeds into the plate heat exhanger and to the output of the entire DHW system is a tempering valve. I've got to look more closely at mine, but I know it has ball valve cutouts and is setup to divert the flow around the plate heat exhanged if desired which might exercise a tempering function if i think about it, but there is no tempering valve.

and, as i mentioned in the last post, if you look at the lowest connections on the seaward 120V tank  you've got a red hose on right and black on left that are part of the hurricane hyrdronic circuit and they feed into the seaward tank which suggests to me that it has an internal heat exchanger as well as the plate heat exchanger mounted outside the tank. I can't figure out why they used both. maybe they thought the exchanger in the seaward was undersized to take advantage of the heating capacity of the hurricane or engine. That is still a question mark for me.

Fred Brooks

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Re: Hurricane heater main fuse blowing
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2021, 03:53:31 PM »
    Thayden,
If you look in "coach assist" under heating and air conditioning you will find the Hurricane CO45 manual. On page 3-2 is the drawing (fig 3-1) of how the hurricane and the dwh are configured and plumbed. 3-3 shows the required elevation. Hope this helps, Fred
Fred & Cindy Brooks
2000 Marquis, Jasper
C-12 Wild Cat (U of A)
2014 Honda CRV
Proverbs 3: 5 & 6