Author Topic: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power  (Read 1992 times)

Gene Obie

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BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« on: January 15, 2022, 08:41:34 PM »
Have the Bird Diesel 2 relay controller and a little confused on whether its ok to run engine while on shore power. Seems BigBoy relay can be closed in this state.

The documentation states when ignition is on and chassis battery voltage increase >13.3V the BigBoy relay shuts to charge house batteries with alternator. But what if I'm on shore power with inverter ON. There doesn't appear to be anyway for Bird to know this?  It seems inverter charger and alternator will both be trying to charge both batteries at this point and possibly fighting each other? So does anyone ever run engine while on shore power? I do this sometimes to charge air tanks after long time sitting (my aux compressor needs repair), but have been turning off inverter while running engine as just not sure.

The documentations also states when the genset is running that the BigBoy relay is open to isolate chassis and house batteries (even with ignition OFF). It states the reason is to prevent overloading of generator/converter. It doesn't see like generator should have any problems charging both banks with ignition OFF. It seems like a bigger problem is that gen/inverter battery charging and alternator will fight each other if engine is running. I would think alternator would be biggest risk. Any reason why generator/inverter combo couldn't charge both chassis and house batteries with ignition OFF?


A side reason for wanting to know all this I am considering reconfiguring the Bird as follows as part of my house battery lithium conversion:
1) Wire "ignition" signal to Bird "GENSET" input. This effectively should open BigBoy relay and isolate Coach and House batteries always when ignition is ON. It will prevent alternator charging of House batteries which is my desire.
2) Remove "generator" signal from Bird "GENSET" input. It should no longer be necessary since BigBoy relay is now open anytime ignition is on. And now, with ignition OFF and inverter powered by either shore power or generator the BigBoy will close relay (when house batteries are >13.3V) and inverter will charge both banks.

I plan to test this out when I can get back to the coach but wondering if anyone has thoughts or experience here? I realize I'm messing with someone's supposed well thought out design... but I really just want to disable the feature of alternator charging both banks.
-Gene

2005 Beaver Marquis, Ruby 40, C-13 Cat 525HP, Allison 4k
Towing 2018 F-150
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Bill Lampkin

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2022, 11:44:26 PM »
My coach does not have a Gen wire at the Bird controller; might double check yours to see if there is actually a wire from Gen run to the bird controller.
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Fred Brooks

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2022, 11:55:24 PM »
   Gene,
Give it a try and see how the Lipo's respond. What ever you do, please draw up a schematic and carefully document all your modifications. If the coach gets sold down the road, and there is an issue, a technician may not grasp what you have done and mis-identify a non issue. Thanks for your consideration. Fred
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Bill Lampkin

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Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2022, 05:42:02 PM »
Gene,
I think the 2nd to last paragraph in the BIRD Diesel 2 documentation addresses your concern;
"A Gen-Set Lockout is provided to isolate the batteries to prevent conflicts if both the converter/gen set and alternator are trying to charge the batteries at the same time. ....."
Steve
Steve
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Bill Lampkin

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2022, 06:05:12 PM »
On a few occasions I have run the generator for a few minutes before starting the engine, to reduce the load on the alternator. I have not noticed any ill effects. With the generator off and a normal engine start, the alternator charge amps on the aladdin drop from 90 to 20 or fewer amps within one minute or so; this is with the batteries at a normal charge level, as in when leaving a campground having shore power.
2005 Patriot Thunder Lexington, 3 slides
40' tag axle (short wheelbase)
525 hp C13

"Goin where the weather suits my clothes..."

Joel Ashley

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2022, 11:05:51 PM »
 I agree with Bill;  many of us use the genset while driving in hot weather, so as to run the roof air conditioners when dash air isn’t adequate.  There’s no ill issues.  If it’ll do fine on the genset, I’d expect no problem plugged in to shore either, and have done so on occasion.
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Gene Obie

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 02:15:32 AM »
I also see lots of other RV forums say no problem running engine while on shore power (as long as you don't drive away :) ). But Bird manual states BIRD closes isolation relay to charge both house and chassis battery on shore power, so this opens the possibility of issues with inverter and alternator fighting each other (not the case running generator if BIRD opens relay as stated in manual)? I just want to understand a little better why it's ok so I'll make some measurements when I get to the coach and see what happens to BigBoy running generator and on shore with ignition on. Maybe it's ok since in general house batteries will be generally be fully charged if on shore (and inverter in float mode) so not much possibility of large currents from inverter or alternator.
-Gene

2005 Beaver Marquis, Ruby 40, C-13 Cat 525HP, Allison 4k
Towing 2018 F-150
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Eric Maclean

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 01:24:36 PM »
There should be no problem running your engine on shore power as both the inverter and the engines alternator have built in regulators even with the battery banks combined if one unit say the alternator has a higher regulated voltage than the inverter then it will continue to charge the battery banks and the other will shut down or go into float what ever the case maybe and visa versa.

Hope this helps
Eric
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Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 02:39:23 PM »
Gene,
Please read the 2nd to last paragraph in the Bird Diesel 2 Manual and explain why you think the Gen Set Lockout doesn't apply to your situation. Suggest you consider calling BIRD to verify your approach.
Thanks, Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Gene Obie

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Re: BIRD isolator and running engine on shore power
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2022, 04:09:54 AM »
I did confirm my coach does not use the generator input on the BIRD controller as was suggested. I also confirmed the BigBoy relay on my coach is closed when running either on shore or generator with engine running. So I think as Eric described, the alternator and inverter are designed so there's no "fight" issue when both are attempting to charge both batteries (but could be problematic if coach batteries severely discharged). That said, as part of my Lithium install I really feel I don't want (or really need) the engine alternator charging my large lithium bank due to large potential alternator current and alternator voltage higher than lithium likes, so I jumpered the 12V IGNITION to the GENERATOR input on the BIRD controller and confirmed it operates as expected. I attempted to contact BIRD manufacturer but no response so just did it and tested. Now, anytime ignition is ON the BigBoy is open separating chassis and coach batteries. I have a big generator to charge my coach batteries (engine running or not) and the system still works to charge chassis from generator or shore when engine is off. They sell after market BIM that "sort of" manages lithium but they control current by duty cycling the connection or detecting overload (voltage collapse) on the alternator. That does reduce "average" heat load on alternator but still pushes it to max during the ON period- especially if you have large capacity coach bank. One popular BIM is ON 15min, OFF 20min. Also really just wanted to avoid expense and hassle of swapping out BigBoy and controller.
-Gene

2005 Beaver Marquis, Ruby 40, C-13 Cat 525HP, Allison 4k
Towing 2018 F-150
Washington