Portable Satellite Question

[MarcRodstein]

I have always had DirecTV and there has never been any need or issue with changing satellites when changing stations. The three satellite thing with Dish always confused me, and seems to be a complication with Dish. With Direct I can tune any channel and the satellite dish does not have to change orientation. But, I don't have HD, just SD. Does the DirecTV HD system still work the same as mine?

[Bill Sprague]

Dick,

Do you have a list of the Dish Network channels that are on each of the satellites 110, 119, and 129 that you made your favorites list from? Sounds like a good idea to have a favorites channel list guide by satellite for the Carry Out when using a two tuner receiver.

Thanks Ed

Ed,

If Dick does not have the list, you can probably find it here:  http://www.dbstalk.com/.  dbstalk is a busy bunch of very technical satellite TV fans.  Subjects range from the science involved in launching a new satellite to what's on TV tonight.  I've been know to kill more than a few hours there.

When I was having trouble understanding how to get local channels in Southern California while I was there I was given expert advice.  One guy even contacted a friend deep inside DirecTV corporate headquarters to help figure out why the Terms of Service had to be changed.  

Bill

Bill

[Edward Buker]

Bill,

Thanks for the link. I had found one very long table that gave channel by channel info awhile back but I was hoping that someone had created a quick list that could be Emailed or attached to work from. If not, I will at some point build a table.

Thanks Ed

[JimCasazze]

Both DTV and Dish use 3 satellites to broadcast all the SD/HD and local channels.  This is why you will see 3 LNB's (the little white things on the arm) pointed towards the dish.  In a home system, the dish is aimed so that all three satellites are visible to the dish simutaneoulsy.  That's why you do not have to reposition the dish when changing channels.  It's all done automatically by the multiswitch, which changes the LNB in use.

This is pretty much the same with any of the portable HD or non-in motion HD system today.  They have 3 LNB's which you aim when you arrive at your destination.

For in-motion HD system, things are different.  First off, when DTV chaged there HD transmission to Ku-band, it pretty much made HD for DTV in-motion no longer a possibility.  There is no room for the additiona Ku-band LNB, nor is the dish large enough to receive the lower powered signal.  Dish does things diffrently and spreads the HD channels (and locals in some areas) across three seperate satellites.  In motion Dish HD can only lock onto one satellite at a time, so when you change channels the dish may have to re-aim, depending on which channel you have selected.  This can take a few seconds (in most cases) before the satellite re-aquires the new satellite and locks on to it.

I have found that I don't channel surf one channel at a time using Dish HD because of the delays changing channels.  Instead, I use the program guide to determine what I want to watch, then change directly to that channel.

The choice of DTV vs Dish is mostly personal preference, except for those wanting HD in-motion.  Dish is the only game for this and will be for the forseeable future.  

I've had both DTV and Dish and have switched back and forth over the years.  I don't feel there is any quality difference in the picture or sound.  Trust me when I tell you that the equipment in my home would make any such difference very visible.  IMHO Dish has much better customer service, but that's about the end of the differences.   Oh, I forgot - NFL is only on DTV.

The Dish IRD we have on the coach is a VIP211K.  This is nice unit and has a few nice features.  First, it allows OTC (over the air) reception of Digital HDTV signals and integrates them with the channel guide.  It also has a SD modulator (channel 3/4 selectable) so I can send all the HD channels over the existing coax to my basement TV and my rear stateroom (I didn't upgrade that one yet...)   One other nice thing that not too many know, but you can plug a external USB Hard Disk into the VIP211K and whala - it now becomes a DVR  No extra cost and no monthly fees!

Hope this helps.
Jim

[MarcRodstein]

[size=14]Thanks Jim, that's the kind of info I was looking for. However it raises a few questions: With the dish re-aiming on channel changes, how can you record one channel and watch another, as you can with a Direct DVR? Also, when you say it takes a few seconds to re-aim, are we talking on the order of 3 seconds, or more like 10 seconds, and does this timelag vary much or is it pretty much constant?

[Dick Simonis]

Marc, I don't know that much about the tech stuff but I can tell you my Carry Out has only one LNB and I can hear it making little R2D2 noises on a regualr basis.  No idea how it allow recording of 2 programs with one LNB but it seems to do so.  Or recording one and watching one.......magic perhaps?

Dick.

[Gil_Johnson]

The DirecTV issue with small in-motion satellite systems is that they typically only have a single LNA and have to switch between satellites.  Although this is easy enough to do, DirecTV broadcast most of the HD channels on Ka band satellites  whereas DISh and SD DirecTV are broadcast on Ku band.  There are plenty of marine in motion sateliite systems that support both bands, but the smallest is about 17-18" tall.  Of course, being marine, they cost a lot more money both for the marine environment and more pitch and roll of a boat versus a land based vehicle.  So, if you want in motion or the small roof mounted systems and you want HD, then you will have to go with DISH.  I have a roof mounted system on DirecTV.  With most parks having cable and the exceptional HD and digital reception with over the air systems, I would consider going with satellite.

Gil
08 Contessa

[Edward Buker]

Dick,

There is just one LNB in the Carry Out which is a low noise block amplifier with a frequency downconverter to reduce line losses. It brings in all the channels on one satellite at a time as a" block". The receiver has multiple tuners and each tuner has access to all the channels on that satellite. I'm not sure if the channel tuning is done in the Carry Out and then downconverted or if the whole block is downconverted and tuned within the receiver. Both methods are usable. This block system is much like a terrestrial TV where the antenna brings in a batch of channels (block of frequencies) that are then available to the tuner which selects one using a local oscillator.

When you select a channel that resides on a different satellite the electronics within the Carry Out moves the dish to a "line of site" poistion aimed at the second satellite. The noise you hear while tuned to one channel is the dish being "wiggled" to verify that coordinates are still right to be a peaked signal. The limitation of this type system is living with one satellite at a time.

 The Dish 722 for example has three tuners in it. In dual mode the two satellite tuners are independant so you can watch one and record another channel on the same satellite with the other. The third tuner is a digital terrestrial antenna tuner. This allows a lot of options where you can watch a DVR or a local terrestrial channel and record two additional satellite programs at the same time....many options here. The first tuner that you turn on owns the satellite position with the satellite channel that you selected. Not perfect but quite flexible.

Later Ed

[JimCasazze]

Marc,

The VIP211K is a single tuner IRD, so it is not possible to record one channel while watching a second.  The VIP 722 and some others have that capability, but I can say for sure what to expect.  My guess is that you could watch one channel and record a second as long as they were both on the same satellite.  

The time to re-aquire and lock does vary a bit.  Typically it is about 3-5 seconds.  Sometimes it may be 10 seconds or more.  It really isn't that much of an issue as long as you use the channel guide to decide what channel you want to jump to.   Also, you can just scroll though the channels without waiting for the satellite to lock if you are just wanting to move up or down a few channels with the channel up/down buttons.  There is no delay to change channels, only to get a picture.

Jim

PS the comments on HD for marine use is correct, but there system are not really applicable to RV's because of the size of the domes (assuming cost isn't another issue)

[Michael Kauffman]

[size=14][face=Arial]Wow, there is some great info here.  Not only info on your particular favorite, but also dissertations on how they work.  Impressive!!  I went with the Carryout/Dish setup from CW because of the sale price with a 10% discount and the monthly payment option.  I have Comcast cable at home so adding to that service is not an option.  Thanks everybody for all of the input.  

One last question, when using a portable setup, what's the best way to run the wire in.  I like things neat and tidy and don't want to open a window every time.  Has anyone got any ideas?  You can't just run it to the TV jack in the utility compartment can you?  Thanks you guy's, Mike[/face][/size]

[Richard And Babs Ames]

Years ago at a Beaver Rally a Direct TV installer was camping at Tropical Palms in Kississme, FL and he sid you could use a diplexer(s)? (some type of signal splitter) on your cable hook up. I think they split the signals some way.

[JimCasazze]

I don't see why a satellite diplexer wouldn't work for combining the portable dish and cable and feeding it to the coach.  You will of course need a second diplexer inside to split the signals back out into cable and satellite.  Also, this will NOT work if you use any type of splitter in between the diplexers.

Jim

[Edward Buker]

Mike and All,

A diplexer will not work with the carry out. If you want to use a receiver with two tuners and have them both be able to view a seperate channel, you will need two runs of RG6U Coax between the motorhome and the dish. If you use a single tuner set up in a dual tuner receiver, or a receiver with one tuner then a single coax is fine. One other thing, the LNB and some electronics are powered by the reciever through the coax. A cable with a solid copper center conductor is supplied by Wineguard. If you run a second cable or want to extend one you need to buy RG6U with a solid coppper center conductor to eliminate DC voltage loss. Belden makes one and the solid copper center conductor cable is also more flexible for coiling for storage as opposed to copper clad steel which is less expensive.

Finding pass through F type connectors is a problem. You need to use the double female blue coded type (plastic is blue around the center conductor) those are rated for high frequency. I found a marine cable pass through at West Marine made of brass. I bored out the center area to allow a double female F connector to fit. I used that as a bulkhead mount. I used a 4 pin mic. connector from radio shack for a pass through for the 12V cable which was not ideal but worked. You will not be able to use any of the current coach coax unless it is RG6U (most of the time it is RG59) and it has no splitters, diplexors etc installed.....just a straight run and it is not likely that it will run where you want it to be.

If you have a handy spot to just have cable ends all you need is a male F connector and a double female to make the connection. In my case I wanted the connections on the coach exterior so I had to create something that would work.
Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Gil_Johnson]

Ed, great solution.  However, if your coach has an exterior connection for a satellite system then you may be in luck.  My 08 Contessa came from the factory with one.  Although this was intended as feed from the indoor SatCom system to an outdoor TV, it will still work.  I need to look at how power is ran to the outdoor unit.  If it's over a common single coax, you're good to go.  There are diplexers that will also work.  They are designed to pass voltage on one of the two feeds that combine over a common piece of coax.  Why you MAY not be able to use the exterior connection for cable is that it runs through the over the air roof top antenna amplifier.  Unless you bypass this amplifier, then I doubt you'll be successful in passing the DC voltage required for the carry out SatCom system.

You can also consider an alternative to what Ed did.  Most coaches have the satellite reciver located above the passenger's front seat above the windshield.  Personally I moved mine from there.  Anyway, if that's where your indoor equipment is located it should be easy to run the SatCom cable down the windshield pillar to come out in the generator compartment.  You could coild the cable up in the front compartment when not in use.  When needed, slide the generator out, retrieve the cable, hook it up to the carry out system, and then return the xcess back to the generator compartment and slide the generator back in.  This would be simple and would not require another connection point between the coach and the outside.


Gil

[Edward Buker]

Gil,

I would think by 08 Monaco was using RG6U in all of the coach coax wiring but in my 2002 it is all RG59 which poses bandwidth and RF loss issues. It simply would not work. I actually tried using a non blue centered double female connector in my cabling and that killed my signal completly. That was hard for me to believe but I replaced it and the attenuation was gone. This block of digital satellite channels, with many in HD, is a lot of high speed bandwidth information being supplied at one time. It can be attenuated quite easily. As long as you have RG6U and digital signal bandwidth connectors in your system you should be good to go.

Unfortunately the Carry Out does not seem to tolerate diplexors and I am not sure why. I did try and it would have made life easier. You will need to run two coax cables to get the two tuner feature to work. The receiver does supply the LNA/LNB power via the coax. It may be pulling information from that cable to use in the aiming/peaking drive electronics that is not diplexor friendly. It could also be with such a small dish that the diplexor insertion losses cannot be tolerated in this application where the standard dish is designed to tolerate that loss.

There is a separate 12v, 5-7 amp line that supplies the dish drive electronics and motors. Just a two wire cable required there but if you are going beyond the supplied cable distance wise, D.C. voltage drop would need to be taken into account.

Gil, I can tell from your posts that you are knowledgable in electronics and your coach systems....thanks for sharing your knowledge with the forum, I have learned some things from your digging deep.....

Later Ed