winterizing with Aqua Hot

[Bill Sprague]

I've been tempted to weigh in on this topic a few times this week.  Finally I couldn't resist.  Winterizing is a PITA, but not a big one.  We live near Seattle and don't get many hard freezes.  But, with climate change or bad luck, it can get cold enough to break things.

The usual AquaHot fix for freeze damage is replacing it for about $8000.   On top of that, there is a lot of plumbing in hard to reach places were fixing a fitting is hard.  The plastic "pipe" used in RVs rarely cracks from a freeze.  It is the fittings that fail.

Using the electric element to protect against freezing is not reliable.  It can burn out and mine did -- a couple days before a freeze.   And, the power can go out, especially in ice storms.

Blowing water out works for many RVs, but not AquaHot equipped RVs.  It will get most of of the water out, but not what might settle to the bottom of the Aqua Hot heat exchanger coils.  

The only 100% reliable winterizing method (other than going south like Gerald) is the pink RV propylene glycol antifreeze.  Fear of antifreeze is appropriate for the ethylene glycol we use in our radiators.   If your radiator leaks in your car or motorhome you are killing dogs and cats that like to drink it.  For that reason, there are formulations of antifreeze using propylene glycol.  They are expensive, but work.  

Incidentally, it is propylene glycol that is used in the "boiler antifreeze" we buy for the operating fluid in our AquaHots.  It is used in case a leak develops and it gets into the hot water system.  Even if it passes your lips, it won't hurt you.  

If you look up propylene glycol in Wikipedia it lists several interesting uses.  Sean may even be consuming some without knowing it!  Among the uses listed are:

• As a solvent in many pharmaceuticals, including oral, injectable and topical formulations

As an emulsification agent in Angostura and orange bitters (No more Old Fashions or Manhattens)
As a moisturizer in medicines, cosmetics, food, toothpaste, shampoo, mouth wash, hair care and tobacco products
In hand sanitizers, antibacterial lotions, and saline solutions
As a solvent for food colors and flavorings
To regulate humidity in a cigar humidor
Used in the beverage mixer Sweet N Sour (no more Whiskey Sours)
The FDA allows propylene glycol to be added to a large number of processed foods, including ice cream, frozen custard, and baked goods
[/list]

(It might be fun to find a comparison on the toxicity of ethanol compared to propylene glycol.  Some of us know ethanol can hurt us sometimes!)

If you don't have a bypass valve like Joel's, it is easy to unscrew the feed line from the water tank at the pump and attach a hose.  The fitting on the pump is standard 1/2 inch pipe.  Any hardware store can get you a female 1/2 pipe fitting and a garden hose fitting that will screw together.  While your at the hardware store, get a 1/2  plug for the tank hose.  If it is full, it will siphon out while it is not connected.

Once you have your garden hose adapter on the pump, screw your water hose to it.  It helps some if it is a short water hose.  Put the loose end in a bucket with about 4 gallons of pink propylene glycol in it.  My Beaver seems to need about 4 gallons plus a quart.  Turn the pump on and go to every plumbing fixture and run it till you see pink flow out.  Don't forget the toilet with it's spray wand and the shower.  Blowing the lines is completely unnecessary, but it might save on a quart or two of antifreeze.  You are also getting pink stuff in the drain traps, which is useful.

So far, we have only spent about $20 and taken 15 minutes.  

The hard parts are the Splendide, the ice maker and the city inlet.  The Splendide takes me about 10 minutes because I have to find, read and comply with the updated instructions that involve spinning dials and pushing buttons that I'm not normally allowed to touch.  The idea is to get the pink stuff to flow through both the hot and cold lines with enough to get to and in the outlet pump.  

The ice maker's weak spot is the plastic valve that has a hose fitting screwed to it.  There is a valve by the ice maker filter near the pump.  Turn it off and remove the filter.  Heat wires are wrapped around it for normal use in the winter.  You have to get those out of the way and unscrew the fitting.  A little water will drain out the filter end.  Pour the water out of the filter.  Put it back together with a new filter or use the old one.  The ice maker takes 10 or 15 minutes, but is well worth it during Martini season.

The last tricky spot is the city inlet.  You push on a spot in the middle and, if the pump is on, a little pink non toxic anti freeze will squirt out.  If you stand in the right place, none will get on you.  If not, it is not toxic and wipes off.  

This is only a two beer job and can potentially save you $8000!

[Bill Jourdain]

I want to make sure I'm clear on winterizing the Aqua Hot (Hydro Hot in my coach).  If I winterize my coach with pink antifreeze, will that also provide winterization to the Aqua Hot system?  In other words, will the antifreeze introduced into the pipes through the water intake also fill the water pipes in the Aqua Hot, or do I have to fill them separately?  I assumed that the Aqua Hot receives water through the main system (city water or water tank), such that winterizing the entire system will also cover the Aqua Hot, but wanted to be sure about this.

I have winterized other, smaller RVs over the years, but this is my first time winterizing a large class A and a Beaver.

Thanks.

[Gerald Farris]

Bill,
Yes if you if you pump RV antifreeze into the system at the water pump and it comes out at the hot water facet inside the coach, the AquaHot will be winterized properly. But don't forget the toilet, washer, and icemaker.

Gerald

[Bill Sprague]

In other words, will the antifreeze introduced into the pipes through the water intake also fill the water pipes in the Aqua Hot, or do I have to fill them separately?

When you say "water intake" I assume you mean at the pump.  Some instructions I've read suggest you can do it at the city water intake.  There is even a small hand pump sold for that purpose.  That would work, but the motorhome's pump itself would not see any antifreeze if the city water intake is used.  

If you have any questions the club directory lists my cell phone number.

[Bill Jourdain]

Thanks, Gerald.  I'm sure this will be an adventure!

[Bill Jourdain]

When you say "water intake" I assume you mean at the pump.  Some instructions I've read suggest you can do it at the city water intake.  There is even a small hand pump sold for that purpose.  That would work, but the motorhome's pump itself would not see any antifreeze if the city water intake is used.  

If you have any questions the club directory lists my cell phone number.

Thanks, Bill.  I will let you know if I run into problems.  We plan to take a couple of trips between now and January, so I hope to hold off on winterizing until then.  If we see sub-freezing temps, I will bring it to the house, plug it in and keep the heat on.

By the way, where is the connection to the pump to pull the antifreeze into the water system?  Is it in the small compartment where the pump is located?

[Edward Buker]

What comes to mind setting up the RV for easy winterization is one of these three way ball valves. It is what I used in my boat in prior years. If one was to mount 1/2 inch thread to barb elbows on two of the outlets and one straight thread to barb fittings on the third outet you could mount the valve on the carpeted wood panel in the storage bay where the pump is. Secure the valve with screw eye tie wraps and bore holes in the panel to accept the barb elbow fittings. Clamp flexible water hose in proper lengths to each of the barb fittings. This valve gets plumbed into the line that feeds the pump from the water tank. You can select either the tank as an input to the pump or select the 3rd port hose which you can place in the container of non toxic antifreeze for winterizing. Basically this change gives you the ability to winterize as needed using a valve without taking anything apart.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R8EZSS/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0075DNEY4&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=09ZW0RFHGF34HZQ096VD

Later Ed

[Bill Sprague]

By the way, where is the connection to the pump to pull the antifreeze into the water system?  Is it in the small compartment where the pump is located?

Yes.  Infact you connect directly to that pump.

One post here says that some Beavers came with a valve.  In the post above, Ed shows an example of one you can install.  There are valve kits for this at Camping World.

That said, I find it very easy to unscrew the hose going into the pump from the water tank and attach a new hose to it.  In other words, if your coach did not come with the valve you can spend an hour installing one to save a 5 minute task once a year.  Besides, there is a filter screen on the pump that should be rinsed off anyway.

[Bill Jourdain]

That's great help, Bill.  I will take a look at it the next time I am at the coach.  Thanks again for your advice, and thanks to the others who contributed helpful hints in this thread.  I continue to see the great value that this forum has for its members.

[Joel Ashley]

As others indicate, some coaches came from the factory all plumbed with hose and shutoff valves, and that's how ours is - already setup to go in the water pump cubicle.  Just drain all lines at the manifold, blow lines out if you prefer, flip the valves in question at the pump, stick the clear tube in a couple bottles of RV antifreeze, and turn on the pump and each plumbing fixture until you get pink coming out, not ignoring any icemaker that you may have to manually cycle. and include the hot faucets to make sure fluid gets through the hydronic unit's tubes.  Some disassemble the icemaker solenoid in/out lines for insurance.  Our washing machine requires only a cup of antifreeze in the drum and one rinse cycle.  Of course, don't forget the drain traps.

Joel

[Bill Sprague]

Just drain all lines at the manifold, blow lines out if you prefer, flip the valves in question at the pump, stick the clear tube in a couple bottles of RV antifreeze, and turn on the pump and each plumbing fixture until you get pink coming out, not ignoring any icemaker that you may have to manually cycle. and include the hot faucets to make sure fluid gets through the hydronic unit's tubes.  Some disassemble the icemaker solenoid in/out lines for insurance.  Our washing machine requires only a cup of antifreeze in the drum and one rinse cycle.  Of course, don't forget the drain traps.

Joel,

I don't see value in draining and blowing the lines because the antifreeze is going to chase the water out anyway.

I do see value in disassembling the icemaker valve.  It is plastic, exposed to the outside air and even for normal use has heat tape wrapped around it.  

If you have a Splendide, the procedures changed from the manual that came with ours.  Throwing a little in the drum did nothing for the hot and cold lines leading to it.  It needs to be run momentarily set to both hot, then cold to get antifreeze through the coach plumbing as well as the washer/dryer itself.

Again, as Gerald recommends, going south is the better way in every case!

Bill

[Stan Simpson]

Bill,

Thanks for this valuable information. Just like Bill Jordain, I have always used a hand pump to pump the pink stuff through my lines, using the city water intake, and not thinking of the water in the water pump. My problem is that I don't know where the water pump is...

There is a pump behind a wall in the bay just to the left of the Aqua Hot bay, but I thought that was for the ice maker because it has a filter on it. I have a slide out tray in that bay, so I will likely have to remove the slide out bay to get to that pump, unless there's a way to open the door. Any way, Bill Sprague, I may be calling you...lol. I have your phone from a long time ago when you helped me with another problem. Does anyone else have an idea where the water pump is?

Stan

[Joel Ashley]

On our '06 Monterey, Stan, there is a cream colored plastic box that extrudes through the right side wall of the black and gray (waste) tank bay.  The pump and all associated items are in that box.  It sounds like you've already found the pump because you actually get to the pump and access the box by simply removing the small carpeted panel with the finger hole in the next bay forward, a storage bay in which most coaches have mounted a slide out floor.  In mine, the pump access panel is high enough on the left wall of that bay, below a couple 120v and TV outlets, that I don't have to remove the slide to get it open.

Now, if you haven't discovered the waste tank bay yet, it's probably because its door doesn't have the normal latch.  Our waste tank bay is immediately in front of the passenger side rear wheel well, and has two swing arm latches nearly hidden underneath along the front edge of the door.  Pressing on the latch's small vertical tab releases a lever which when swung down will take tension off an arm that catches and holds the door.  Inside the compartment in addition to waste tanks and piping you may find several Alladin modules, a heat exchanger to keep your basement and water fixtures from getting too cold as long as the Hydronic system is operational, a thermostat probe for it, and perhaps a solar power control model and other stuff.

The pump you found certainly sounds like your coach water pump.  It has it's own removeable screen filter on it which needs at least annual cleaning, and the filter you saw is in the line to the ice maker.  It may be due for a changeout as well.  With the access cover off you should be able to sort out what valves control what, from previous posts here, and how to use the pump to get antifreeze into your system.

Bill, blowing out and/or draining keeps water out of my empty waste tanks;  but it is certainly not a mandatory part of the job.  It keeps the antifreeze at my preferred dilution %, plus I can recapture some of it at dewinterizing in the spring and reuse it the next year.

Joel

[Stan Simpson]

Another question. I have my coach sitting in the drive way, plugged in to a 30 amp power source. The other day, I turned on the electric switch for the Aqua Hot, and then the furnace. Nothing happened. When I turned on the diesel Aqua Hot switch, and started the generator, the furnace came on. How can one keep the furnace on over night, even at a campground, if it doesn't work off of just electrical?

Stan

[Edward Buker]

Stan,

The Aqua Hot runs on 12V with the exception of the 120V element that will heat the resevoir with an AC power source. I'm not sure what happened here. You can check to be sure that the house batteries are getting charged properly and are sitting at 13V+ with the inverter charger enabled while you are plugged in. I assume that if you have a battery cut off switch to the "House" and that it was on. The most likely explanation is that the chassis batteries started the generator and then the charging system being fed by the generator (using the charger inverter) supplied voltage to a dischaged battery bank that then ran the Aqua Hot or for some reason the House batteries were disconnected by switch or other means. The good news is that the Aqua Hot is fine (they are expensive to work on) and that this is a relatively simple checking of voltages at the house battery and charging system to see what might be wrong.

Later Ed