water intrusion in sidewall

[Keith Oliver]

In between the two large windows on the passenger side, just in front of the dining table, below the wall mounted light, is a swelling of the interior finishing material.  Also, the new laminate flooring below that location is swelling along the wall and extending into the room up to 8 inches.
From the outside, there doesn't seem to be any swelling of the fibreglass of the wall, nor is there any break in the fastening of the gutter.  The location is about half way along the Girard awning, but again there doesn't seem to be anywhere that the flange attachment is separating from the outside wall.  
The only rain we have had was a three day heavy rainfall just before we left home in late October.  At that time I had a serious leak from the gutter above the driver's side window.  There the gutter was separating from the side wall by about 1/8" over a 12" length, right where the front cap and the side wall met, and the water was entering the wall and coming down the inside of the window.  At that time I checked for other leaks, but there was then no swelling of any interior finishes at that time.  I suspect things had to stay wet for quite a while to get the swelling.  That location is behind the easy chair, so rarely exposed to scrutiny.
Has anyone had similar leaking, and if so, how have you located the source of the water?
Is the Girard assembly not water tight?  Do I need to caulk the gap between the flange and the upper part of the housing?

[Tom and Pat Fudale]

I had a 98 Patriot with a giraud awning that caused sidewall delamination, also a friend had the same coach and had a continuous leak also from the awning even though he had it removed and reinstalled. I solved my problem by trading it in for a Monterey with a Carefree.

[Keith Oliver]

Tom

Thanks for the information.  I don't think the installation of the awning could be the problem, as the outside flange is flat against the fibreglass sidewall and tight all the way along, offering no opportunity for water to get behind it.  What I don't know is whether, below the top flange, there is any opening in the awning structure itself, that would allow water to come in.
I would like to get my hands on a drawing or a picture of the construction of the awning, so as to see what possibilities there are.  Once I know where the water is coming from, I am sure it will be fixable, just now though, not having any clues makes it difficult.

[Andy Clark]

Tom

Thanks for the information.  I don't think the installation of the awning could be the problem, as the outside flange is flat against the fibreglass sidewall and tight all the way along, offering no opportunity for water to get behind it.  What I don't know is whether, below the top flange, there is any opening in the awning structure itself, that would allow water to come in.
I would like to get my hands on a drawing or a picture of the construction of the awning, so as to see what possibilities there are.  Once I know where the water is coming from, I am sure it will be fixable, just now though, not having any clues makes it difficult.

...........................................................
Look higher, at the joint between the roof and the sidewall. On our '95 Beaver Pat, I found that the silicone caulking (ugh! Hate that stuff!) of the seam along the upper edge of the decorative aluminum strip covering the joint (the one with the plastic insert) had failed. It was not immediately visible until I discovered that I could gently slide a scalpel all the way under the caulking until the point touched the underlying fiberglass. Also, the screws holding this strip to the coach side are not well sealed, allowing water intrusion.
A further source of leaks is the fact that on many Beavers, the ends of the plastic insert are sealed up. Since the insert is not sealed to the decorative strip, water can and will infiltrate the cavity behind the plastic until it reaches the level of those unsealed screws, Voila! Water leaks. Don't ask how I know this!!
When I stripped out the failed caulking, resealed all the screws and replaced the decorative plastic strip, I left the ends of the strip unsealed so that any water that got behind it could either run out or evaporate. I treated it similar to the way car rocker panels are designed- open at both ends for water egress and airflow for drying.

Hope this helps
Andy

[Tom and Pat Fudale]

I know that mine was bolted to the coach with bolts that went all the way through to the inside and these bolts got a little rusty so there had to be a leak around them. Although the awning was recessed into the side of the coach on the Patriot.

[Keith Oliver]

Andy:

I share your disgust for silicone, and I have removed it wherever I have found any.  Alas, the location you describe still looks good, and has no silicone, just some old, cracking, but still holding, white caulking.  I will investigate further as I don't see where the screws you describe are.  My plastic insert is as you describe, sealed at both ends.

Tom:

The awning is inset into the side wall, as was yours.  Are you describing the bolts that attach the awning?  I have some covering boards on the inside, at both ends and in about the middle of the awning.  The ones at the front are accessible and are rusty!  I have no other signs of leakage at the front, but now I will remove the inside covering board to see what the middle bolts look like.

Thank you both for your suggestions.

Keith

[Andy Clark]

Keith, if that caulking you mentioned is old and cracking, that's where the water is getting in. Try slipping a knife blade between the caulking and the aluminum to see if the bond has separated there also. Use polysulfide to reseal after removing all the old stuff. Marine stores have good sealants, far superior to what I have found in RV stores.
The screws are behind the plastic insert. If you pull out a small section of that insert, you will likely find that the cavity behind is either partially full of water or the inner surface of the plastic is wet and covered in brown slime, and the screw heads are rusty, denoting past water. And please do unseal the ends of that strip. I cannot imagine what Beaver was thinking in sealing the ends of a leaky aluminum/plastic assembly.
Andy

Andy:

I share your disgust for silicone, and I have removed it wherever I have found any.  Alas, the location you describe still looks good, and has no silicone, just some old, cracking, but still holding, white caulking.  I will investigate further as I don't see where the screws you describe are.  My plastic insert is as you describe, sealed at both ends.

Tom:

The awning is inset into the side wall, as was yours.  Are you describing the bolts that attach the awning?  I have some covering boards on the inside, at both ends and in about the middle of the awning.  The ones at the front are accessible and are rusty!  I have no other signs of leakage at the front, but now I will remove the inside covering board to see what the middle bolts look like.

Thank you both for your suggestions.

Keith

[Keith Oliver]

Andy:

You are probably right.  Today wasn't the day for further investigation, as it was blowing (visibility reduced to less than 1/2 mile in dust) and cold here.  Tomorrow won't be the day either, as I will be cycling in the "Tour de Palm Springs".  Hopefully the wind will have died overnight.
When I get the diagnosis completed, I will post the results.

[Andy Clark]

Hey, Keith. Cold in Palm Springs? It was 42deg here today and that's the high. Currently feeling sorry for the poor folks back east.

[Keith Oliver]

It dropped to  55F this afternoon in the wind.  Had to put on long pants, socks and a sweatshirt!  Tomorrow promises better.  Back East looks frightful.  Hope they get a break soon.

[Keith Moffett]

Keith (good name BTW)
I hope our story helps you some as we have had and to a lesser extent still have the same problem.

First you have to realize that the Girrard awning has that flat area on top which collects water like a rain gutter on your house.  This is made worse by the fact that the outer edge of the box is slightly higher than the point where it meets the flange you mentioned in your above post so all the water runs into the box the Girrard is recessed into.

We had ours removed and this is what we were told;
Beaver cut corners when they installed the awning.  They put the liner box in the hole which then holds the awning but they did not seal the corners and seams on this sheet metal box.  For this reason, any water that gets past the caulking that should be between the flange and the top of the awning box (about 1/4 inch gap) runs directly into the wall structure.  Most commonly just around the dining table area but also works its way through the wall to the area above the door and along the windshield frame.

Here's the fix;
They pulled ours out and sealed the box and then after reinstall they recaulked that seam.  They then told me that they used silicon again and I was a bit pissed.  One year later the silicon pulled out in one long ribbon so it was not sealing anything and had to be redone.  The problem seems to be that these repair folks dont realize that once silicon is applied it cant be redone without frst using a remover to get rid of the residue.
We are going to hook up with Andre at Girrard (hopefully at the Gillette rally) and arrange for the proper repair.  Meantime the leak is almost nonexistant.

Sidebar;
If your awning is like ours the original motor is still in it.  There was a recall due to the error of the company that supplied the motor.  They built it with nylon drive gears, this was to be replaced so yours may have been done already.  The awning has to be pulled mostly out in order to make the change so if possible do both fixes at once.

Best of luck
Keith M.

PS (Girrard is in San Diego)

[Wayne Tull]

Andy,

"Use polysulfide to reseal after removing all the old stuff".   Did you use a primer before applying the polysulfide sealant or is just good cleaning enough?

[Andy Clark]

Andy,

"Use polysulfide to reseal after removing all the old stuff".   Did you use a primer before applying the polysulfide sealant or is just good cleaning enough?

Wayne, I just cleaned the area with laquer thinner and made sure there was no hardened silicone still remaining on the surface. Sometimes you have to remove the hardened residue mechanically, followed by a laquer thinner wash. I did the same when I replaced all the clearance lights on the front of the coach. They were sealed (if I can use the term) with gobs and gobs of silicone. Hate the stuff!! I have to do the rear lights when it warms up a bit.
Andy

[Andy Clark]

It dropped to  55F this afternoon in the wind.  Had to put on long pants, socks and a sweatshirt!  Tomorrow promises better.  Back East looks frightful.  Hope they get a break soon.

I'm sad for you. I'd LOVE to see 55deg!!!
<GRIN>

Andy

[Keith Oliver]

Keith:

Thanks for that detailed response.  I have already pulled out the ribbon of silicone, and looked at the Girard exploded diagram that I found in the coach, concluding that the box needs to seal to the wall, but the awning didn't need that silicone ribbon, as it would only need to be sealed around the bolts that attach it.  Your experience seems to confirm this, and also to indicate that there may never have been any sealant around the bolts, and the box itself may have other leaks.  Looks like a big job!  My awning is working perfectly, so I don't want to mess with it, but I will call or email Girard to see about the recall.

Andy:

Today was nicer.  40 or so at 06:15 when I had to be out on my bike for the start of the "Tour".  Crossed the finish 7 hours and 106 miles later, in about 65 degrees. Perfect for cycling.  Got the T Shirt.

Keith