Coach Batteries / Xantrex /

[Dave Porter]

Greetings all!  Don't know what I broke this time and I'm looking forward to your suggestions/ideas.  We have a new to us 2005 Beaver Monterey which had corroded coach batteries (a sulphur bloom) on the two outboard batteries.  After using a wire brush, baking soda paste, and some anti-corrosion spray, I was pretty proud of myself.  "Was" is the key word as when we went to visit our coacn to load more "goodies" this past weekend only to find none of the interior lights would come on.  I do have it plugged into a 30A shore outlet, so I found the lack of lights a little confusing.  Thinking maybe I had turned the inverter off, I opened the door to access the the Xantrex controls only to find it was "dead".  I checked voltage on the 4 cells, two at 6.xV and two at 4.5V.  Each "pair" is at 10.5V.  I had only cleaned two of the batteries (they were the two "outboard" ones and one is at 6.xV and the other at 4.5V.  I have double checked my battery wiring, just in case I got the cells in backwards....but all looks good there.  The battery switch is in the "on" position (it was in the "off" position when I did the cleanup).  I did notice that the stud connector for the battery to battery connections that attaches to each neg post was a little loose...like the connector maybe is a tad oversized to grip tightly around the smaller negative post.  In my zeal to make firm connections, I had been thinking I may have been too hard in tighening the stud extender on one of the negative posts of the battery that is reading 4.5v.  I don't know enough about batteries to know the internal workings and was afraid maybe I destroyed an internal connection.  That said, what's confusing is that I never touched any of the posts on the other battery that is also reading 4.5V so I've talked myself out of being a battery destroyer.  There is also a little grey Xantrex connector which, according to the manual is a heat sensor, that I feared I reinstalled on the wrong connector...but after reading of the manuals, I think I got it right as it is installed on an outboard neg terminal.  My plan for today is to return to the storage facility where I park the coach, take apart all I have done....especially focusing on cleaning up any of the anticorrosion spray, and start all over again.  Is that a reasonable plan or am I wasting time?

Another concern is determing the status of the hydrohot as I use it to keep the coach above freezing.  I can't tell if it's going to work (I fear not as the switch on the controls in the kitchen wasn't green).  

So I need some real education here.  1.  How to resolve my battery (or is it a Xantrex) issue.  2.  And as none of the lights come on inside the coach (and the hyrdohot), do I assume that the Xantrech is essential to have any inside power?   Even with being plugged into shore power?  3.  So is the easy solution to buy 4 new coach batteries and start all over?

OK, standing by for my education!  And boy, do I need it!

[Edward Buker]

I do not know your battey configuration. To start out, for clarity use "battery" when you are refering to measuring the positive to negative terminals of one battery. The term "cell" is used to define a battry segment that is internally wired in series. I think you are refering only to the house battery bank which are 6V batteries (3 fill caps) each.

I would doubt that you damaged the internals of any battery tightening the post lugs. You did not connect anything backwards because that would have shorted and produced a large arc and possibly a battery explosion. There is a lot of current in the batteries when charged so be careful to label things if needed and not drop connected plus leads on the chassis metal.
 
Before you ever touch the battery switches you must be sure that the AC power leading to the inverter is off. The inverter needs a load and can be damaged if on and you disconnect the batteries from it using the switch. Also always have the battery switch back on before you reconnect the AC to the coach. Easiest way to disconnect is to pull your coach power cord. You can then turn off the battery switch and work in the battery bay. You can use the main AC breaker to disconnect also.

In your case it would seem that the batteries were already discharged so I do not think the charger was working before you did the work. You need to check the water level in each battery. See if it is above the plates, add distiilled water if it is not. Look for a cell that is abnormally low. That would indicate a bad cell (shorted) that is boiling out water. You would need to change that battery before proceeding. There may be a power disconnect switch in the coach that kills most of the 12V power and that may be off and not able to be turned on due to low voltage. Once the batteries are O.K. water wise and you see no abnormally low cell, I would leave the AC power off and the battery switch off and get an external decent charger and connect it to the batteries. Set it on 12V and connect it to the point that the main ground and plus leads from the coach are located. You should have measured the 10.5V here (should be 12.7V without charging going on) You should see amps drop over time and the batteries recover voltage wise. Once charged you can see if the batteries are O.K. and if coach electrical 12V systems are working. Reconnect AC and see if the Xantrex comes to life. If not you have assured yourself that the batteries can take a charge and are acceptable with the independant charger. If the Xantrex is not working then verfy it is getting AC power and refer to your manual for troubleshooting that unit. Your Xantrex display should help here. Hope this helps...

[Bill Sprague]

The Xantrex on my 2004 has a circuit breaker on it.  As I recall, it is a red button.  Mine popped once.  I reset it and it has continued to work for a couple of years.

You didn't say how old the batteries are.  If they are the ones that came with the motorhome, you should consider replacing them.

The corrosion on the terminals comes from battery acid that naturally gasses out during charging.  I was never completely ahead of the corrosion blooms until a friend suggested that I hose off the batteries when ever I wash the motorhome.  I have had no corrosion since I started doing that.

You didn't say where you are, but if it is cold, your biggest threat is the hydro-hot.  Do not let it freeze!  The repairs will be difficult and expensive.

[Edward Buker]

From my previous post, the alternate charger, water fill, checking for significantly lower cell, is to get a battery bank charged and up and running. That should allow you to get the aqua hot that Bill mentioned online so it does not freeze. You can leave that battey charger running and connected until you have the Xantrex issues resolved. You would want a charger that will deliver 30 amps or more continuous to get the job done. If the charger amps does not slowly taper off and the battery bank does not come up to 13+ volts with the charger on for 8hrs or so then change out the batteries. You will need the backup charger on the new batteries also if the Xantrex is not working.
Do not run any charger on the coach leads alone without the batteries also being connected to those leads. The batteries are very low impedance and absorb any votage spikes over 12V so that the coach electrical wiring does not see spikes from the "dirty" charger. These chargers put out pulsating DC that is not very clean. Hope this helps.

[Bruce Benson]

I'm going the simple route on this one.  Is there a master power switch inside the entry of the coach?  If so is it on or off?

Bruce

[John Fearnow]

The xantrex heat sensors go bad routinely.  When my sensor went it gave an extremely high reading shutting the unit down. at least one fix to that problem is to disconnect it from the inverter plug-in connection. just disconnecting it from the battery will not solve the problem.  

My xantrex prosine 2000 in our 2002 Thunder sporadically but not infrequently shuts down resulting in loss of the pass through AC.  I have always been able to resolve the problem by "rebooting" using the on-off switch on the inverter unit itself.  This can be a pain in the a.. but i have learned to keep access to the inverter switch clear and hope my back survives bending over far enough to reach into the cargo bay and get to the switch.  If you are loosing only the DC lighting then this is probably not the problem.

John Fearnow
2002 Patriot-Thunder

[Dave Porter]

My latest problem turns out to be that the Xantrex unit itself has failed.  I was really concerned that because I hadn't winterized the coach (relying on the Hydro-Hot for heat) that I was in for bigger problems if I didn't act quickly.  After revisiting everything that I had previously done, I convinced myself that I needed professional help and rather quickly.  Luckily there is a CW about 10 miles from where I store the unit, so off we went.  Their investigation said the Xantrex unit itself had died as there was no 12V output anywhere.  They say they called the service center in TN, but were told that the unit was no longer (or was ever) repairable.  Not really sure about that…but working in the computer business I’ve seen some of the same logic applied to some of our products.  In short, a unit replacement is required.  "Luckily" CW had a closeout in another store of the exact same unit, so I have a new unit coming that at least has a 3 yr warranty.
 
One of the confounding events during all of this was why the Hydro-Hot wasn't working when plugged into shore power.  I'm told (and it makes sense) that all the Hydro-Hot controls are all 12V....so no inverter output....no Hydro-Hot controls.  And I think that explanation is partially correct as we couldn't force the diesel portion to fire up but there was some warm air coming from the vents (not forced air) that I suspect was convection from the AC heater portion of the Hydro-Hot.  
 
So the big learning for me was how central the inverter is to normal daily life.  Everyone had always described it in turns of providing AC power when no generator or shore line was being used.  And at a simplistic level, that is correct.  But the next layer seems to reveal that you need 12V for most everything in the coach.
 
When I had started the battery corrosion spring cleaning, I had luckily disconnected it from shore power, turned off the switches in the battery bay and proceeded with my cleaning.  So I was reasonably sure that I hadn't done anything from that perspective.  I've read some of the other postings suggesting an order to re-energizing the coach and I honestly can't say that if I did or did not turn the battery disconnect switch on before reintroducing shore power.  I think the battery switch was on first, then shore power.....but I just don't remember.  I guess I'm still questioning my own actions as to contributing to the Xantrex death but I'm not feeling as guilty as I had been.  In the future I will follow the suggestion of hosing off the batteries as part of the coach cleaning process.
 
Our first clue that we had a problem was in going in to the coach, none of the DC lights (the halogens) would light.  The overhead fluorescents were trying to come on (like a single bulb being partially lit) and the CO detector in the bedroom was also complaining about lack of power (or at least that my the conclusion) since nothing had been run in a week.  Batteries at this point had deteriorated another couple of volts (now in the 8V range).  
 
And just another footnote….I’m certainly going to rethink relying on using the Hydro-Hot as a means to avoid winterizing the coach.  With the unit sitting at CW for the next week waiting for parts, I had them winterize the coach and they informed me that I had two cracked drain pipes (bathroom sinks) that were leaking. Normally Georgia doesn’t have the sustained cold winters we have experienced this year and we are/were hopeful that we’d be able to get some winter excursions in.  So, maybe this is a question for a different thread but are there easy ways to winterize/de-winterize a coach for weekend use?  Or am I just over-reacting?

Oh well, our first MH (we'd been camping in a pop-up for 23 years) and there is MUCH to learn....and boy are we learning.  We have yet to have our first maiden voyage and we’re anxiously waiting for a much happier weekend adventure!  

Thanks to all, again, for your helpful insights.

[Richard And Babs Ames]

One of the confounding events during all of this was why the Hydro-Hot wasn't working when plugged into shore power.  I'm told (and it makes sense) that all the Hydro-Hot controls are all 12V....so no inverter output....no Hydro-Hot controls.  And I think that explanation is partially correct as we couldn't force the diesel portion to fire up but there was some warm air coming from the vents (not forced air) that I suspect was convection from the AC heater portion of the Hydro-Hot.
  /quote]

The thermostates requires 12 volts to function or to turn the 120 volt electric elememt on and off on the Aqua Hot and includes the AC units and refrigerator.

Your Inverter/Charger has two functions.
1. Inverter - Takes 12 DC volt power from the house batteries and changes to 120 AC when required and
2. Charger - Converts 120 AC to 12 DC to charge the house Battieiers.

Your charger function quit working so you used up all the 12 volt power without refilling the batteries. Hence no thermostats to control the 110 Aqua Hot.  

[Edward Buker]

Your Xantrex fail could be just a chance occurance or it could have been under a lot of stress due to a bad battery. Just one bad cell in one battery that is shorted will drag down the battery bank voltage and force the charger to ramp up the current supply and continuously charge at high rates. You should not over react to this and get new batteries, you just need to be sure that all cells have water in them that is over the plate level, that the cells behave the same from a water usage viewpoint, and that the charger brings the bank up voltage wise and drops the current level to a trickle charge of an amp or two without any load being drawn by the coach. This info is available on the status panel. The current being drawn in fully charged state is the best indicator that you have as to the state of health of your battery bank.

I live in coastal Alabama and have been wrestling with the same cold/winterizing issue. Down to about 25 degrees I have had no problems with just using the electric hydrohot element with the interior temp set at 40 degrees and leaving cuboard doors at the sinks open. The storage bay stays 45 degrees and the interior heaters rarely come on. Given that your sink drains seem to be the most susceptible issue, you can pour a little non toxic antifreeze in all the drains without much expense and effort. I do check the bay temp and the charge status panel daily to be sure all is well. I have the coach on a 120V/30 amp circuit. Less than that available current level as a supply might might be a concern if running both the charger and the electric element of the hydro hot at the same time. I do not like to rely on the diesel burner. Mine has failed to start several times when it is cold and very damp out. My suspicion is that the electrodes and parts are all coated with condensation and the spark does not end up jumping the gap that it is supposed to.

[Joel Ashley]

As far as the cracked drains, pouring a half cup of RV antifreeze (not automotive antifreeze!) down each, sinks and shower, will keep them from freezing again while stored.  Opening all the faucets and toilet valves while having opened all the water system manifold drain valves is easy enough.  Of course, open the main water tank drain.  Open any drains near the water pump and run the pump to help clear water from it.  Pour a cup or two of RV antifreeze in the washer/dryer drum if you have one - see its instructions for winterizing.  Blowing 40 psi air through the system to clear it has always worked for me, but then I also turn on the HydroHot element in super cold weather and set the thermostats at 40.  But you need a functioning inverter.

If you have an icemaker, that gets a little trickier as it has to be cycled to open its valve so water can drain back towards the valve you opened near the pump;  see refrigerator or seperate icemaker owner's manual for that.  Without a functioning inverter or 12v. you didn't have power to the heat strip around the icemaker's solenoid valve, so hope that didn't freeze and crack.  Hopefully your new inverter and infrequent Alabama freezes will keep you from having to deal with that threat again.  You were unfortunate enough to get hit by the perfect storm of unusual weather in the deep south and a belly-up inverter.

Using the water pump to push RV antifreeze throughout the system is best, but impractical procedurally for winter weekend warriors - that is how CW winterized your rig.  For weekenders, I'd use the RV antifreeze in drains and air blowout procedure mentioned above, and during projected freezing weather, keep the living room thermostat at 40 with the HydroHot 110v AC on, and check the inverter output/battery voltage every couple days if possible.

Of course, make sure your engine antifreeze tests up to snuff - antifreeze testers are available at auto parts stores.

[Ron Johnson]

dpgator my Xantrex failed 3 years ago and:

** I am still using the same batteries they are 6 years old now
** I took the opportunity to upgrade to a pure sine wave inverter\charger which delivers cleaner power to circuit boards and other electronic equipment
** an added bonus was the new unit is a 4-stage charger which means in addition to the normal bulk, absorption and float functions it has a full charge feature where the charging is suspended for 4 hours as part of the normal charging format. The batteries now do not need near as much water.

When my charger failed I figured I had wrecked everything too but it was just a part that failed. Good luck.

[Bruce Benson]

CW is correct, Xantrex does not support repair of many of their inverters.  A good reason, in my mind, to avoid coaches that use them.  

The last time mine failed SilverLeaf had no software to support a different inverter.  Next time it fails I am giving up the inverter functions on SilverLeaf and buying an inverter from a good company, perhaps even one made in America.  

Bruce