Do I have an Echo charger?

[Gary Wolfer]

My chassis batterys went dead last night. I have been parked for a couple months plugged into a 30 amp shorepower. I think I must not have an echo charger or a bird charger on this coach as the house batteries seem charged. I can start the coach by using house and chassis battery switch on the dash. It is too early to start the coach this morning but I intend to run the coach to charge the chassis batteries. Last night for a few minutes I started the coach and my heart interface light showed a charge rate of 13.5 to 14v charge rate with the engine running. I then started the genset with the engine running so it had enough power to start. (I assume it starts off chassis power as it would not start before) After getting the genset running I shut the Cat engine off and the genset took over charging and the charge rate on the heart interface monitor had the rate at about 12v I think that means the coach batteries are charged. I am thinking there must not be a bird or echo charger or one has failed. This is on a 98 Patriot. Can someone tell me if they came from the factory with a bird or echo charger and if so where I would find them? I may need further help to diagnose this problem as I am a novice to say the least at electrical work.

[Edward Buker]

Gary,

If you do not see one of these on the sidewall of your battery compartment you probably do not have one and your symptoms would say that you do not. It was not standard on all coaches and tended to be an option that was added later. Your coach era is before Bird systems became standard fare also, that was more a Monaco introduction. These units are easy to add and it is just three wires for connections. They work well and are not expensive. If you buy one install it fairly high on a sidewall in the battery compartment as the charging fumes travel down in general and you do not want the unit continually exposed to those.

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/xantrex-heart-echo-charge.html?gclid=CJTQ_MSe0b4CFcyhOgodf1cAUg

Later Ed

[Gordon Webster]

I don't know about the echo charger issue but I do know about charging batteries that have been run down badly. It will take about 24-36 hours on a strong charger (like a 20amp) to bring it back to full charge and the only way to truly tell if it is fully charged and the cells are all good is to test it with a hydrometer. That's the little glass tube with a rubber bulb on one end and the 4 0r 5 balls in it.
I had a fully depleted battery that I charged and checked with a load tester that showed good but it wouldn't stay up until I did the above. If you have sealed batteries you can't do this of course.
I've also learned that many sealed gell cell batteries will take several hours on a charger before they even start to show improvement. You'll think they just won't charge but about 12 hours or so later they finally start to improve.

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

The electrical diagram for a 95 Pat does not show an Echo or Big Bird. The diagram notes that a battery isolator was not installed until coach #557.
Steve

[Grant Ralston]

Ed,

I do not believe my 1998 Contessa has an echo charger.  It does have a very large battery isolator.  I have not traced out all of the wiring yet, however I have assumed this isolator does the job of the the echo charger?

Thanks

Grant

[Joel Ashley]

Grant, others here may expand my comments, and I'm not familiar with Echo Chargers beyond what I've read in this Forum, but that device to the left of your isolator looks like it may be one.  However that company is known for their solar systems, so it could be a solar charging controller.  

The large blue isolator assures that one bank of batteries can't deplete the other.  It does not charge anything, but rather serves as a protective 12 volt power conveyance device.  It has diodes that accomplish that by allowing current flow in one direction.  As I recall from our old Pace Arrow, the center wire should connect to your alternator, and the left and right posts go one to the chassis bats, one to the coach bats.  The alternator on our old coach went out several times, and I finally replaced it with a larger one.  At the same time I replaced the factory "Ford" solenoid that was used as an isolator with an true isolator built for that purpose - it was like yours.  They come in different sizes as per the current they need to handle, especially during alternator charging - higher capacity alternator > higher amp isolator.

The device on the side wall to the right is probably your Boost solenoid, for when you might need to use coach bats to assist starting the engine.  Similar to a relay, pressing the Battery Boost switch on the dash signals the solenoid to close its large internal contact, connecting the two battery banks via the isolator.

Overall, the devices in your photo look like they could use a good connection cleaning and treatment to assure quality circuitry;  perhaps have a tech check each for operational integrity, as the photo seems to indicate overheating at some point in their lives.  Any one or more of them may not be fully functional.

Joel

[Grant Ralston]

Joel,
Good input.  The device to the left of the isolator does say it is a solar controller and the LED does cycle on/off accordingly.  It makes sense the engine alternator would charge both battery banks through a isolator, I was thinking the alternator charged only the chassis batteries and the isolator split the output of the 120 volt charger/inverter between the banks.  I think I need to do more wire chasing and investigations!  
I do need to do much more cleaning of the electrics especially the open connections, so far I have just cleaned enough to try to identify the pieces.

Thanks,
Grant

[Gary Wolfer]

Well I forgot to check the voltage across the house and chassis batteries themselves but got the coach started and charging the chassis batteries with the alternator. The Heart interface panel is showing 13,5 volts while the engine is running. I have another question? Does the diesel genset charge both sets or just the house batteries? Last night when I got the genset started it would not go past 12v on the heart interface panel but I just ran it for a few minutes because it was late. Can I check voltage across negative and positive terminals while the alternator is running or would that be a waste of time? Ed I did not see an echo charger in the battery bay so I will order one. Thanks for the link their price is the best I have seen. Hope I can keep it charged enough to not hurt the chassis batteries until I get the echo charger.

[Edward Buker]

Gary,

As others have mentioned the unit next to the isolator is a solar charger and my suspicion is that it only charges the house battery bank as in most other coaches. sometimes that is enough to keep the house bank fully charged and sometimes it s not based on the capability and available light. The genset charging is done using the inverter charger system utilizing the 120V genset output as a supply. So basically that is a house battery bank charging system without an echo charger. Once the echo charger is in place you should be fine as long as the house bank has a good charging source.

Later Ed

[Gary Wolfer]

Thats what I was thinking Ed the solar charger was someone elses post. Thanks for all your help. I ordered a echo charger today. I had one installed on my 94 Safari a few years ago. It was mounted under the bed at the back of the engine so I know they can be mounted in many places I like being able to see the green light from the back of the coach over the radiator so I know it is working. Have a good day. Gary

[Edward Buker]

Gary,

The wiring is typically not all that heavy so it needs to be located not all that far from the batteries. You can up the wire size a bit if you want to and mount it further away. Attached  is a voltage drop calculator. For 14V DC, 20 amps, 12GA copper wire (use stranded), 10 feet, you get a .63V drop. So if you start with 13.8V at the Echo Charger the battery would see 13.2V at the end of the wire. I would try and keep the voltage drop under .5V in the lead wire. You can check out your mounting distance and wire size with this.

http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.htm

Later Ed

[Keith Oliver]

Gary & Grant:

My 98 Contessa had an echo charger.  It looked something like this: http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/xantrex--echo-charge-battery-charger--333669

It had quit working when I bought my coach in 2011, so I had a steep learning curve to get to the point of having my chassis batteries survive.
I added:
1 a knife switch at the negative terminal so I could be sure there were no continuing loads when there was no charge current available
2 a Blue Seas Isolator/Combiner, http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/blue-sea-systems--starting-isolation-si-dual-sensing-automatic-charging-relay--8646283
so the chassis batteries would get a charge from the House charging system when operational.

No further issues with that system.