Author Topic: NO START  (Read 9430 times)

Rob Perry

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NO START
« on: January 25, 2010, 04:34:45 PM »
Have a 2001 Marquis with a C12 425 Cat that seems to have a air leak of some kind. When the coach sets for a week and I attempt to start it, it's a no start. I installed a manual pump on the fuel filter so I don't have to pay the Cat dealer the $100 per hr + travel.
The coach sits for about four day and won't start unless I pump up the pressure. Filters are tight, it has to be somewhere else.
Any ideas????

Thanks

Gerald Farris

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Re: NO START
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 01:44:10 AM »
The O-rings on the cylindrical sight glass on the Raycor water separator are the most common cause for an air leak in that fuel system. The next likely cause for an air leak would be the hand pump that you installed.

Gerald

Ron Johnson

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Re: NO START
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 03:02:46 AM »
I did not have this problem but had the o-rings on the sight glass replaced last year after I noticed constant fuel leakage. My Coach has a little 'purge' panel in the rear 'cockpit' [aft passenger side compartment] allowing one to purge either water or air by pushing a button. I am guessing you do not have this feature 'cuz you installed the manual pump. It's strange what they included or did not include from the factory. Maybe this little panel was an option.

If I remember correctly from a post on rv.net the fuel goes from the primary filter to the lift pump then back to the secondary filter. Could the fuel leak\air in be occuring at the lift pump? I know Cat lift pump seals are not supposed to be bothered by ULSD however it would not hurt to check.

I really feel for you. One of the greatest joys of having one of these is to hear that big Cat start up like a switch was thrown. Hope whatever it is you find it.

Ron

Edward Buker

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Re: NO START
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 05:57:22 AM »
This is not an easy thing to do but it was what a Cat mechanic did on my 89 Contessa  that had lost prime on a mechanical injection pump due to an air leak. (Died on an on ramp in Denver, had to be towed, bad scene) He installed an inline sight glass coming from the fuel tank prior to the water seperator and observed no air stream in the fuel with the engine running. It required different fittings to adapt the sight glass to different locations. He then installed it on the line going to the engine injection system just after the final filter and hand pump. We could easily see a bubble train in the fuel with the engine running at that location. Shut down and with fitting changes installed it between the pre and final filters and there were no bubbles in the fuel stream there. My leak point was sourced to the fittings, handpump,filter of the final filter/pump assembly. We replaced the final filter and reinstalled the sight glass on the outlet side going to the engine injection pump and it was now bubble free. The cat final filter was a new version and it had been redesigned with a compromise placement of the o-ring in order to replace several different filter PNs with one for cost savings. That compromise design caused an air leak.

Because it is relatively easy I would change the pre and final filters and the Oring set in the water seperator as Gerald mentioned. An O-ring is the most likely source of an air leak and I believe that would eliminate all of those as a possible sources. One thing I noticed is that the Cat mechanic really tightened things well beyond what I would consider safe without breaking fittings or filters but when he was done it was trouble free. He had many years of experience. If you do get to the point of frustration where you have a mechanic temporarily install a sight glass and find no air in the fuel stream then I believe there is a check valve in the return line that is intended to keep fuel from returning after the engine is shut down to prevent hard starting. If nothing else this lets you know how Cat diagnoses the fuel stream for air leak points. Without some diagnostic method to source the leak it is all guesswork.....Hope this helps.

Edward Buker

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Re: NO START
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 02:04:35 PM »
To clarify....My last post regarding using a sight glass applies to all of the fuel system that is behind the first fuel pump where a vacuum pull would suck air into the system at a leak point. After the pump there should be pressure in the line and a visible leak would be more likely. I do not know where the fuel pumps are in the C12 fuel delivery system and the transition from vacuum to pressure is made. Hope this helps...

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: NO START
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 02:56:30 PM »
Do you have http://racorfuelfilters.com/?gclid=CO-h-uCmwp8CFQzKsgod0RPJ0A this filter system? If so it is like the one we had on our 1997 Patriot. We developed a leak in the screen housing followed by a electric pump failure and leak. Ended up replacing with a http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_spn_intro/r_spn_intro.html  filter with manual pump. Simple design and and less expensive replacement filters.

Rob Perry

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Re: NO START
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 11:22:02 PM »
THANKS, - - PROBLEM SOLVED
AFTER ABOUT $500 THE CAT DEALER IN PORTLAND FOUND THE PROBLEM.

When I purchased the Marquis from Beaver Coach Sales in September 09, I had them do a $1200.00 service of all the major components.
New fuel filters, oil the works.

November 09 the coach wouldn't start:

The Cat Dealer Halton on the second visit found a DEFECTIVE GASKET ON THE NEW FUEL FILTER that was leaking air into the system.
They replaced the fuel filter and all is well.

What a nightmare for a NEW FUEL FILTER.

Rob Perry

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Re: NO START
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 11:24:27 PM »
By the way, we got rid of the usless electric pump located by the fuel filters and had a CAT hand pump installed. It's a beauty.

Bill Sprague

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Re: NO START
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 04:43:41 PM »
Quote from: ]....AFTER ABOUT $500 THE CAT DEALER IN PORTLAND FOUND THE PROBLEM.....What a nightmare for a NEW FUEL FILTER.[/quote

You got off cheap.  I have a $600 filter!

About two years ago I was driving south on I-5 and the engine started "lurching" like it was missing when climbing gentle hills.  Each time it did, the ATC light flashed. Called Monaco and Cummins.  (Yes, my Beaver has one of those!).  Both were convinced I had a computer problem somewhere and an ATC signal was confusing the engine.  I limped and lurched into the Cummins shop in Coburg, OR and left the coach for the weekend.  Monday they went to work.  After six hours of trouble shooting at $100 per hour with laptops and code readers, a seasoned mechanic suggested a fuel filter change "just to see what happens".   That fixed the problem.  It ran perfectly with the new filter.  

It seems that the ATC light flashed because the engine de-rated for lack of fuel.  Then it would "heal" as it got a little more fuel through the filter.  Don't know why the filter plugged up.  It had only about 2,000 miles on it.