Author Topic: Motorhome Winter use  (Read 24262 times)

Edward Buker

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2014, 05:32:12 PM »
David,

You are right there is a single position 120V 30 amp breaker from one of the legs of the 120V feed that goes through a 10/2 wire with ground to the inverter. So most all of the coach outlets are fed by this line through the inverter. The lightest duty component in the chain is the built in transfer relay contactor set in the inverter and that is an item you want to preserve by not putting the maximum possible load on it for really extended durations. Most of the smaller 120v loads added together in the RV that intermittently go on and off are fine. The point being do not add three heaters to that normal load that contains most everything we use and expect the transfer relay to last.

Later Ed

Orman Claxton

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2014, 05:54:18 PM »
Quote
The electric element requires either shore power or generator power to operate; it does not operate at all from the house batteries.
Not true, The relay that supplies power to the Electric element  is DC powered

David T. Richelderfer

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2014, 06:16:03 PM »
Orman - I guess I do not understand... again!  My electric element is turned on and off by a single breaker in my 110v panel, right beside breakers for the three roof airs, inverter, etc.  I assumed from that the electric element is a 110v fixture.  I have a separate 110v panel - beside the 12v panel in another cabinet - that controls what I thought are circuits coming through the inverter.  Or, is what you are saying the electric element uses 110v to heat but is turned on and off by a separate 12v relay?  So the AquaHot requires both 12v and 110v to turn the electric element on?
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Bill Sprague

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2014, 06:22:49 PM »
David,

I'm certainly not going to suggest you are wrong!  Our motorhomes could be wired differently.  I'm at the condo, so I can't double check the panels or wiring diagram.  But, I think if I plugged in two space heaters into convenient outlets in our motorhome I would overload the single breaker for that circuit.   It is not the inverter limitation, it is the limitation of the 120v circuit itself.  

Part of the challenge is that, even with adequate shore power, it is divided into two circuits of 50 amps.  Our genset supplies only 30 amps to each circuit.  If our theoretical cold weather HydroHot failure is in the mountains, the genset might not produce full output.  

As near as I can tell, the inverter "pass through" is 30 amps based on the breaker panels in the back.  The primary panel feeds a 30 amp sub panel.   The subpanel has three circuits with 15 amp breakers:  entertainment, microwave and "everything else".  The everything else circuit has all the easy to access outlets and 120 lights on it.  In other words, I have a single 15 amp or 1800 watt outlet circuit.  The rest of the available electricity goes other places besides the convenient outlets.   I goes to places like the block heater, the air conditioners, the refrigerator, the washer/dryer, the very limited electric part of the HydroHot and the microwave.  

(On a side note, the electric element built into the Hydro/AquaHot uses about the same amount of electricity as a single space heater on high.  But, the heat it produces has to keep the Hydro/AquaHot warm and is distributed with liquid through tubes to heat exchangers hidden behind cabinetry.  So even though it uses about the same as a single space heater, the heat and comfort you get is far less due to ineffecient heat loss.)  

Typical space heaters and hair dryers draw 8 amps on "low" and 12 amps on "high".  In other words, you can run only one on a standard 15 amp household circuit set to high with a 3 amp "safety" margin.  You might run two on low but it is past the theoretical limit of the circuit.  

Our most used motorhome heat source in "normal" weather is a baseboard style space heater in the living room.   It is set to low (8 amps) and we know where to set the knob to maintain about 68 to 70 degrees.  It works fairly well down to about 50 degrees F outside.  

In "abnormally cold" weather, the baseboard heater does not keep up.  8 amps turned into BTUs is not enough.  I think that is about 3000 BTUs.  I recall the HydroHot is capable of 50,000 BTUs.  

My suggestion of using space heaters as a HydroHot backup is aimed at solving the problem of being in very frozen circumstances with complete HydroHot failure.  In other words, somewhere below 25 F outside air temperature!  I would want heat in my tank bay at 8 amps, basement storage at 8 amps, perhaps the HydroHot itself to prevent freeze cracking at 8 amps, bedroom at 12 amps and living room at 12 amps.   That's 48 amps total.  

I've installed 4 additional "utility box" outlets in circuits that do not use the "everything else" circuit.  In my emergency plan, that circuit will heat the tank bay and basement.  The additional utility box outlets in each air conditioner circuit power the two living space heaters.  The electric element in the Hydrohot should keep it from freezing and provide some heat if it is only a diesel burner failure.  

I freely admit that my freezing weather/HydroHot failure plan is complex and the best solution is the same as always shows up in the winterizing threads --- stay south in the winter!  However, our South Dakota blizzard lasted three days.  By the second day, the wiring diagrams started to become interesting!   The screeching noise in the diesel burner was growing louder.  At the time, I had only one space heater.  At that moment, I wanted a backup plan!  My heaters and utility box outlets cost about $100.  On my motorhome, there was easy access so it only took a few hours to put them in.  

In summary David, I think you could plug in one space heater in the basement on low.  Another into a convenience outlet inside, also on low.  A third, in a convenience outlet should trip the breaker UNLESS you have two convenience circuits with their own breaker.  You may be able to plug one into the microwave outlet and another into the washer/dryer outlet -- if you can get to it.  You would certainly get by down to about 25 degrees outside as long as you can keep the Hydro/AquaHot from freezing.  I have a smaller genset than you and would run into the 30 amp limits to each leg.  

Bill Sprague

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 06:29:21 PM »
Quote from: Stan Simpson

Bill,

I'm confused. Did you mean to say the electric element CANNOT produce enough heat to replace.....

Stan

Yes, Stan, that is correct.  The replacement part for the electric element in your Hydro/AquaHot is 1600 watts, sometimes less depending on model.  Therefore, the electric element in the AquaHydro/Hot cannot produce more total heat than a hair dryer.  It is distributed well, but there is not much there.  The diesel burner made by Webasto that is used in the Hydro/AquaHot is at least 10 times more capable of producing heat.  

If it is much below about 60 degrees outside, you will not stay warm on electric only from the HydroHot.   Unless.... you have one of the rare models that has TWO electric elements in it.  


Bill Sprague

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 06:45:04 PM »
Quote from: Edward Buker
.......Bill's approach adding outlets that do not go through the inverter is a good sound approach to the back up electric heating issue. The main transfer switch may be a good source to wire in and add another breaker box for the extra outlets.

Later Ed
Ed, the easy place for me was in the A/C units.  On our Monterey, the A/C air return is hinged to make filter cleaning or replacement easy.  There is a standard utility or "J" box close inside where the A/C unit is wired into the motorhome system with standard household wire nuts.  It was easy to replace the closed "J" box cover with an outlet cover and outlet.  

One surprise was that the wire nuts were taped with plastic electrical tape.  Oddly, the nuts were wrapped in the opposite direction of the wire nut threads.  The elasticity of the electrical tape loosened the wire nuts as the tape naturally shrunk.  Had the tape been wrapped the other direction, it might have kept the nuts tight in a high vibration environment, but it was wrapped in the wrong direction for that purpose.   I've never seen electrical tape used on top of a wire nut before, so I have no idea what the installer was trying to do.  

Bill


Bill Sprague

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 06:47:25 PM »
Quote from: Larry Williams

He said the electrical system was enough to support SPACE HEATERS to replace the hydro-hot output, not that the electric element would replace the hydro-hot output.
Yes, that is what I meant.  


Bill Sprague

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 07:06:20 PM »
LEGAL DISCLAIMER AND SAFETY ALERT!!!!!

Normal heating with space heaters is a known cause of fires.  Lots of them.  They tip over, blankets fall off of sleepy laps, cords are tripped over and they fail.  Perhaps worse, when operated at full output, the cords, plugs and THE WIRING BEHIND THE OUTLET AND INSIDE THE WALL CAN GET HOT.

My theoretical discussion about multiple use of space heaters is about surviving (comfortably!) in extremely colds weather in the unlikely event of a total primary furnace failure.  

I confess to personal use of a baseboard style space heater that is NEVER SET ON HIGH unless I'm sitting next to it. Since it is a baseboard style, no single part of it gets hot enough to "glow" or cause combustion.  Compared to my "emergency" space heaters, it was very expensive. Used on low, it is a comfortable and quiet boost to the normal heating system, the Hydro/AquaHot.  

DO NOT USE SPACE HEATERS FOR NORMAL HEATING!  It can be extremely difficult for us old people to get out of the emergency exits when there is a fire.  (The emergency exits are the windows with the red latches.)  

Besides, the more you use the Aqua/HydroHot, the more reliably it works.

David T. Richelderfer

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 08:17:02 PM »
20 degrees is what I remember.  The problem is I don't remember if it was the electric element/furnaces or the three roof airs that held the coach to 20 degrees warmer than outside.  Maybe it was both.  It's hell getting old, isn't it?  Anyways, I usually use the roof airs (heat pumps) to warm and cool the coach.  I rarely turn on the diesel burner for heating.  It gets operated more for exercising than for heating.  I think I carry one space heater, and haven't used it yet.

I just looked in the coach.  The main 110v panel has a main and seven sub-breakers.  The other cabinet has a 110v panel with its main and five sub-breakers, and the 12v panel has no main with 12 sub-breakers.  The inverter sub-breaker in the main 110v panel is 30 amp.

This has been a very interesting discussion, and I for one have learned a lot.  Thank you all.  Now it's off to the river for an afternoon boat trip and dinner.  Toodles...
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Edward Buker

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 11:44:36 PM »
Orman,

On my Aqua Hot 100-2s the 120V Romex is wire nutted to wires that go to a high limit and a control button thermostat that feed the electric element directly, no relay in this version anyway. The heating element in this unit is fed directly by the breaker panel, no relays or switches, just thermostats.

Bill,

It is common practice to tape wire nuts in applications where vibration is possible or exposure to any possible weather. I had not thought of shrinking tape possibly loosening them, interesting.... My microwave outlet is fed by the inverter so it is not separate. I guess the lesson is, do the test I described and see which outlets are not fed through the inverter and if you are worried and do not have enough then add several as needed to handle heaters. Maybe just one heater on one outlet that feeds through the inverter would be rational when it is in pass through mode of 120V and not inverting.

Later Ed

Orman Claxton

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2014, 04:36:16 AM »
Edward, you are right for your model.
Also
 On my 2005 Monterey, Heat pump will operate quite well until around 45 deg, then will automatically switch to Aqua-Hot, all depending on your settings.
Interesting, to say the least!

Edward Buker

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2014, 01:17:14 PM »
Orman,

So many configurations out there, I do not know how you masters with your sleeves rolled up keep them all straight. Beyond that most of them are in compartments that are not easy to work in. My hats off to the few of you that go there for the rest of us...

Later Ed

David T. Richelderfer

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2014, 03:01:39 PM »
I am right there with you, Mr. Buker.  One distinction I would make though is you are one of them.  I am grateful for all the help and lengthy explanations I read here on the forum.  This group of a dozen or so "doctors," some specialists and some GPs is just like going to a medical clinic.  I feel like I am in med school yet... albeit the first year.
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Justin Youngren

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2014, 06:43:07 PM »
Wow! That was a load of information! Thank you all so much. We should be able to prepare ourselves to go to SD the end of Oct. and to Las Vegas in Dec.. We have been caught in blizzards before and know what that is like.  
We still have yet to learn how to service the hydrohot diesel ourselves too so if anyone has done that we would greatly appreciate any advise.  Thanks again!  This forum has been so awsome!  :)

Stan Simpson

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Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2014, 07:15:23 PM »
Justin,

Unless you are a contortionist, or the PO of your coach changed things, it will be difficult for you to service it yourself. If your Hydro/AquaHot is in the bay directly behind the curbside steer tire, like ours, its stuffed in to a small space, with most of the components that have to be serviced in the rear of the box. Just changing the diesel filter (ours is way in the back of the bay on the wall) is tough. Some owners have moved the filter to the front of the bay, as long as they have long enough fuel lines. The Webasto has to be removed in order to change the fuel nozzle, which must be done annually.

Those who have shop space, the tools, and the know-how, likely do their own. I wish I was in that group!

Good luck,

Stan
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