Author Topic: Radiator Repair - damaged fins  (Read 15919 times)

Richard McQuillan

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Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« on: January 17, 2015, 04:42:24 AM »
I have a 2004 38' Monterey with a Cummins 350 hp engine and the standard side mounted radiator. I recently noted some slight leakage from the the radiator and took the coach to a local diesel repair shop  (Southern Oregon Diesel) in Roseburg, OR. They determined the leak was in the the area where the aft header connects to the radiator core and sent the radiator to a shop in Eugene for a new gasket. At the radiator shop (A-1 Radiator) they noted that the fins in the lower aft inside face of the core were rusted and generally falling apart (see attached photos). A-1 Radiator has recommended a new core at a cost of approximately $1500. So, here are my questions:
1. If there are no leaks in the radiator, why should I replace it just for a small area of disintegrated fins?
2. The radiator shop said that when the fins fail, it substantially reduces the integrity of the tubes and can result in tubing failure and leaks. Is this a valid concern.
3. Is $1500 a fair price for a new core?
4. Could the area where the fins are damaged be strengthened with epoxy or some other method to avoid placing undue stress on the tubes in that area.
As much as I hate spending money, I don't want to do anything foolish. Your thoughts and insights will be appreciated

Dick
Dick McQuillan
2004 38' Monterey Huntington

Edward Buker

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 02:05:19 PM »
I do not have any expertise regarding how bad a radiator core can be before it actually fails. You might take your photos to an independent radiator shop and get a second opinion. That being said, if I had the radiator already out, on the bench, and had to repair it, I would probably go ahead and make it as good as new so that I did not have to be concerned about failure while on the road. I opt to spend if it is safety related or could cause an on the road failure. Just one opinion....

Later Ed

Larry Dedrick

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 03:10:47 PM »
Richard:
                You stated in your second sentence, that you "noted some slight leakage from the radiator". However, in your first question you stated, "if there are no leaks in the radiator". If you did find leakage, I would agree with Ed to have it replaced. Leaks usually only get worse and over a few hours, more or less, on the road, it's only a matter of time before you have lost enough fluid to get into an overheat situation. I remember, many moons ago, when radiator shops could repair almost any radiator, but these shops are few and far between, besides the materials that are now used.
                 If the radiator is not leaking, it's a tough call, but once again, I would agree with Ed on a second opinion. Good luck, I know what it's like to have an overheat situation. I did not heed my senses, I could smell antifreeze over several days and eventually found the leak in my drivers heater core, lesson learned.
                 Once again, Good Luck with this project.

                           Larry D
Laura/Larry Dedrick
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Richard McQuillan

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 09:15:26 PM »
Larry and Ed...thanks for the input. I think your suggestion to re-core rather than "regret" is pretty good advice.

One further note...the leak that I found was between the radiator header and the core and only required a new gasket. Thus far no leaks in the core have been found. The owner of the radiator shop says that the fin damage is rust resulting from either road salt or salt in the air on the coast. I do spend 2 weeks on the Oregon coast each year, but I am surprised that would cause the type of damage I am seeing. I have driving very little (less than 300 miles) on snow or ice covered roads and son't believe any of them were salted. Has anyone else had similar rust issues with their radiators?
Dick McQuillan
2004 38' Monterey Huntington

Edward Buker

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 09:58:46 PM »
Richard,

Because all of the rust is at the bottom, it would be hard to explain that proximity due to the time on the coast or road salt. With the fan drawing in the road salt in, that would be everywhere on the radiator, and the coastal salt air affects everything. If you look in the mirrors when driving in rain the entire rear of the coach is saturated with spray from the wheels and air turbulence but that does not happen all that often.

What is more likely is that the dampness and condensation is far more prevalent near the ground when you pass through a dew point. It is also cooler near the ground which aids in the forming of condensation. I think this rust is likely driven by just repeated condensation in that region of the radiator.

I guess there is an argument to be made for spraying the lower portion of the radiator with some moisture resistant lubricant if the coach was to be parked outdoors in a humid environment for an extended period of time. Is this core fin assembly made of steel?

Later Ed
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Gerald Farris

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 04:10:59 AM »
Dick,
My 2000 Marquis spent it's first 3 years in central Washington state before I purchased it. The fins that separate the 4 lower tubes are completely corroded away, probably from road salt. Since the radiator has never leaked, I have chosen to ignore this condition. There is no doubt that this condition weakens the radiator, but it does not guarantee a failure. So in replacing a non-leaking radiator core because of fin damage, you are buying insurance against a future failure or repairing a weakness instead of repairing a failure.

Since you have already paid for the R&R labor, the cost of a recore will be much easier to justify, but however you look at it, you are buying insurance. How lucky do you feel?

Gerald     

   
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Richard McQuillan

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 05:57:19 AM »
Thanks for all the insights. I think I will replace the core as several of you have more-or-less recommended. I don't feel very lucky (I bet on the Ducks last Monday #!$$$3$X*&).  I also believe that I will add the use of some type of rust inhibitor applied to the radiator to my preventative maintenance activities as recommended by Ed. With regard to Ed's question, I'm not sure of what material the fins are made from. Clearly they are some  type of ferrous metal and are very thin. 
Dick McQuillan
2004 38' Monterey Huntington

Stan Simpson

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 08:21:15 PM »
Don't make 2 bad bets in a row. Advice from Big 10 country!  ;D
Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
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Edward Buker

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 09:15:45 PM »
Gerald's radiator having the lower fins rusted away due to salt in a matter of three years is pretty aggressive. The whole radiator gets saturated with water and salt while traveling and when you pull in and shut down gravity probably increases the salt and moisture saturation in the bottom region of he radiator. Then condensation on the lower sections over time continues that corrosion process as the coach sits.

I guess if you travel in salt and the coach is going to sit for awhile (days/weeks), after the coach is all cooled down I would rinse the radiator with a gentle spray of water paying special attention to thoroughly hosing the bottom region. After the radiator is all dry you could spray the bottom region with an oil spray if you like but getting rid of the salt would probably be far more important in stopping the corrosion.

Later Ed
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Joel Ashley

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2015, 10:41:28 PM »
I don't know but what Ed has something specific in mind, but I wouldn't use a spray lubricant on the fins.  Any standard one will leave a dirt-attracting residue, and you don't want plugged fins and dirty tubes.  PTFE (teflon) and dry silicone won't leave a residue, but they don't prevent corrosion either - they just leave a powder coating that can sluff or wash off.  Rather than trying to keep some coating applied, I'd just take Ed's advice and remember to lightly hose down the radiator when washing the coach and especially after leaving an area of sea or road salt exposure.

Most radiator cores are either aluminum or copper/brass, both tubes and fins.  I guess there are some that have steel or perhaps aluminized steel fins.  I was of the notion that ours were aluminum, but I know many large truck cores are copper as were I think at least some Country Coach ones.  Copper/brass exchanges heat better, but the softer metal means the tubes can't be as wide or they'd tend to collapse, so more tubes that are narrower are required, i.e. - the same size copper radiator with 4 side-by-side tubes might only have 2 tubes if it were aluminum instead.  Thus, copper cores are heavier, a disadvantage when you're a coach or truck manufacturer trying to save weight.  Copper also tends to corrode easier, partly because aluminum forms its own defensive oxide layer on its surface.  There are all kinds of considerations to take into account between the two types of core construction. 

The area where your corrosion is showing looks like it could have encountered prior damage of some sort.  That might have exposed the fins there more by knocking off protective paint, I don't know.  Exactly why either aluminum or copper would display orange corrosion, instead of white or green, I'm still researching.  I associate rust with steel.

Joel

Addendum:  Out of curiosity, I have an inquiry submitted to an American manufacturer, and so far he is indicating that the fins themselves are not likely rusting.  Rather the rust came off something else, which eludes to my contention that some iron composite device was up against the radiator at that proximal location somewhere along the line, or currently when installed on the coach.  The rust stains can also have originated with a leak of some sort of poor, improper, or engine-stained old antifreeze.  But the pix imply to me that the staining is from a proximal steel engine component or something. 

If so, your core may be perfectly fine aside from some bent fins.  Stay tuned.

Hey, was that Seattle game fun to watch or what?!  Go Seahawks.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 12:37:32 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Joel Ashley

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 12:46:09 AM »
Okay Dick, they looked at your pix and say it is a copper core, so to me it's not rust as much as banged up copper fins.  When I zoomed in on your photos it did look more like copper metal than rust, but I assumed A-1 knew it was rust.  Below is their reply to seeing your photos.  You might contact them or at least check out their informative website.

-Joel

"This is a copper brass core. It can be recored. It is fin deterioration due to road salt or sea salt. It could be rusty inside, need to check it. But this is [definitely] a bolt up copper core radiator. The OE does put a lot of aluminum radiators on motorhomes. Some are aluminum and some are bolt up copper brass and will interchange.  You can see all the different ones we offer on our website.
Thanks"


Phillip Cochran
C,G & J INC Heat Transfer
Gadsden Alabama 35901
www.cgj.com
256-546-4613 office
800-223-4299 office
256-312-2828 cell
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 12:55:06 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat
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Richard McQuillan

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 04:40:17 AM »
Wow - you guys are good! Thanks for getting the opinion from the manufacturer in Alabama. What they have said is consistent with what the radiator shop in Eugene said so that gives me more confidence. The recommendations to rinse the radiator down on a regular basis and to avoid spraying it down with some sort of rust inhibitor also makes good sense. I think you are correct on the material the fins are made of...ie copper or brass.  I'm guessing copper because they felt lake a pretty soft metal. Thanks again for all the good advice and research.
Dick McQuillan
2004 38' Monterey Huntington

George Harwell

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2015, 12:24:53 PM »
I paid $2500 for the rear core on my coach several years back so $1500 sounds like a steal to me. The photos look like copper to me also. Good luck.

Tom Halter

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 05:42:46 AM »
Dick replace it. $1500 is not a bad cost. It will just continue to get worse causing you more money and heart ache broken down in the middle of no where.

Thanks!

Tom Advantage RV
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Lee Welbanks

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Re: Radiator Repair - damaged fins
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 03:05:21 PM »
What gets me with the photo's is the FRESH damage to the fins, copper oxidizes/tarnishes and turns almost black it does not rust. That looks like fresh damage to the fins so how did this happen, was it like that before being removed from the coach or did they do it removing it???
I would be twisting somebody's arm for some help with the replacement cost. I would be taking a real close look at the core and if it is only fin damage put it back in the coach.