Author Topic: Key won't start the engine  (Read 21021 times)

James Sagerser

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Key won't start the engine
« on: June 27, 2015, 06:42:39 PM »
Our beautiful 2003 Monterey is new to us. As with anything new, we have a few issues.  My wife and I were ready to leave on our next great adventure when the Cummins wouldn't start.  When we turned the key to the start position, (in neutral) all the dash lights lit up as normal including the "wait to start" but didn't engage the starter.  I check the newer batteries and they were fully charged.  I left the key on, crawled under the coach and jumped the starter solenoid with a piece of wire.  The solenoid and subsequently the starter engaged properly and it started right up.  We continued on with our trip with the inconvenience of hand jumping the starter.  Along the way,  I installed a start button in the battery bay so I didn't have to keep crawling under it to get it started.  I called Bend, Or and talked with a wonderful tech, Jeff Spear, who gave me a lot of valuable info.  He suggested I test the start switch to make sure it was working.  I but my test light in the "starter" pin connection on the back side of the starter and turned it to the start position and the light came on indicating power to the starter.  Jeff said the only other thing he could think of between the start switch and the solenoid is the Allison control box that has several relays and a couple of fuses.  Part of the start sequence is to verify that the coach is indeed in neutral to start which is part of the function of the box.  I found the box, checked the 2 10amp fuses and pushed on all the relays to make sure they were secure.  All looked fine.  I suspect it may be a bad relay or a possibly a break in the wire going to the solenoid but think it is unlikely. Has anyone else had this issue or any ideas on what to try next?  Thanks for you help.  Jim

Dave Atherton

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2015, 09:08:18 PM »
James, there is a relay for the starter that sound like bad connection. Your push button tells
you starter is ok. Check for your ground to the starter off the back and to the frame also.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

James Sagerser

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2015, 10:37:54 PM »
I've thought of a possible bad ground but disregarded it since the starter engaged easily using the original ground when I pressed my new start button.  I forgot about the starter relay.  I'll try to find it and jump it there.  Anyone know were it's located in a 2003 Monterey with a Roadmaster chassis?

George Harwell

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 04:48:03 PM »
James, my 03 Monty did the same and I found a bad solenoid in the engine bay forward end near the bay ceiling mounted on a frame outrigger. It is above the hydraulic power pack so open the bay door,look at the forward bulkhead and go to the top then go left towards the frame. A nice bright flashlight will help you locate it. Having long arms helps also. This solenoid has been around forever so should be easy to find. Good luck.

James Sagerser

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 07:23:07 AM »
Thanks George.  I'll look tomorrow in the daylight and let you know what I find.  Jim

James Sagerser

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 09:53:47 PM »
Hi George,  I see the solenoid you mentioned.  You are right, it is a stretch to reach it and I have long arms.  I'm going to call Bend and see if they have a part number for it and then figure out how in the world I change it out of there.  Thanks again.

Keith Oliver

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 07:03:18 PM »
We had an issue with the key not able to turn the engine off, on our 98 Contessa.  Turned out that the headlights had to be turned off first.  Hope this helps.

James Sagerser

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 04:40:32 PM »
I don't think that is the same issue as mine but may help someone else.  This forum is great.  I did find the solenoid that George mentioned and waiting to hear from Bend on a part or part number.  Will see if that is the fix. Thanks for your reply.

Tic Wilson

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 09:38:29 PM »
FWIW, sometimes when I turn the ignition key on, nothing.  Turn it off, jiggle the key and try again, works every time.
I wonder if this is the same ignition switch used in the GM products that have been failing?

Dave Atherton

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 11:13:26 PM »
Mr.Wilson regarding your key switch, there is a cat Bullentin about problem with your key switch
on your C-9 engine. Sounds like you found problem by wiggling the key switch and everyone says
key switch is a GM product. The Cat Bullentin says intermittent power loss to ECM, wiggling the
key switch I would guess and engine will starts would qualify as a power loss to ECM.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Gerald Farris

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2015, 04:38:58 AM »
Tic,
There is a good chance that when you turn on the ignition switch and nothing happens, your problem is not the ignition switch, but it is a bad ignition solenoid that is located in the LF electrical bay. On a Beaver coach ignition solenoid failures are very common, but ignition switch failures are rare because they flow very little current. Almost al of the current related to the ignition circuit goes through the ignition solenoid. The ignition switch just turns the solenoid on and off.

Gerald

Edward Buker

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2015, 07:37:18 AM »
Gerald,

I had ruled out the ignition solenoid in the electrical bay because when I read his first post it seemed that everything on the ignition buss came on with the ignition switch but he could not crank the starter. I think that leaves the Allison pad which requires neutral verification to crank and the wiring from the ignition switch back to the starter as possibilities. There has been another input indicating that there was another smaller relay in the back of the coach that may be in series with the starter solenoid, but I have no idea what the function of that relay is, unless it is to reduce voltage drop and make the actual connection closer to the battery bank. Still curious about this one.....

Later Ed

Gerald Farris

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2015, 02:58:38 PM »
Ed,
I agree that the original poster, James does not seem to have an ignition solenoid problem, but the poster just above my reply, Tic does seem to match an ignition solenoid problem.

Gerald

Edward Buker

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2015, 03:52:17 PM »
Gerald,

I'm much slower then you are, I was still working on the first post :-) Your spot on as usual and I am now all caught up...

Later Ed

James Sagerser

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Re: Key won't start the engine
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2015, 04:36:56 AM »
Up date:  I sent Jeff Spear in Bend a couple of pictures (see attached) of the solenoid that George mentioned earlier as a possible cause of the start failure.  Jeff agrees that it is probably the culprit.  He said on some earlier models there was a "solenoid for the solenoid" which enable a shorter run for the main starter current from the batteries.  I will try to replace it a week or so when I get some time and report back.  Jim