Author Topic: Lost Engine Power  (Read 9775 times)

Norm Green

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Lost Engine Power
« on: June 27, 2015, 11:05:42 PM »
We left home, Franklin TN, yesterday in our '08 Thunder and travelled to Wytheville VA KOA without incident.  Left there this morning, Saturday, with a destination of Cherry Hill RV Park outside Washington DC.  Weather was bad with very heavy rain and traffic about the same.  A few miles from the campground, the check engine light and the stop engine light came on.  I pulled to the side of the freeway when clear and shut down the engine.  I have the Silver Leaf PC application running and everything was in the green, good temps, pressures, etc.  After about 5 minutes, I started the coach again and no lights came on.  Because we were so close to our destination and because of weather and traffic, we proceeded on to Cherry Hill.  Initially the coach seemed fine but within about a minute, the lights came on again and the power from the engine was substantially reduced, we literally crawled into the campsite.  I can not see anything obvious but for some reason, certainly not from any knowledge, I suspect something with the turbo or something related to the turbo's function.  There are several CAT service providers within about 6 miles but none of them are open on the weekend. 
Any suggestions on what might be wrong and any recommendations on a service center near the Cherry Hill park?
Norm & Cynthia Green
Franklin, TN
2018 Entegra Cornerstone 45W
Previous, four different Beaver coaches

Joel Ashley

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 12:06:04 AM »
Similar thing happened to us a few years back, and it was low coolant in the overflow reservoir.  If that level gets below the electric sensor in the side of the tank, it signals the engine to go into "safe" mode.  I'd check that tank level first.  If that's it, then look for hose or tank or fitting leaks that are causing loss of coolant, and be sure to refill with the correct fluid, ELC or otherwise.  Our coach was virtually brand new at the time, but one of the long large hoses out of the tank had been switched out (for some unexplained reason probably before leaving the factory) for an older one, and it had cracked and leaked.  As you may know, several here have had the plastic Ford tank replaced with a custom-designed metal one from BCS.

Of course it could be something else, but that tank is an easy enough starting point.  Otherwise get it towed to someplace that can hook into the diagnostic port.  If I was that close to a certified CAT service facility, I'd just sit tight until Monday morning.  If you have Coach-Net, I found them extremely helpful during our experience, and that tank was the first thing their obviously knowledgeable tech had me check.

Joel
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 12:13:57 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Dave Atherton

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 03:32:13 AM »
Norm, what you have is a problem such as low coolant in top surge tank. At this point when sensor
Activate ( light on dash comes on ) than light will flash and 30 seconds later engine will derate.
This is called a event code, when event has passed ( or cooled down engine or fault heat indicator )
event code will reset itself and engine will run normal. When sensor goes beyond its limit will
derate engine again. Question did you lose any coolant in top surge tank in back. If not sounds
like you have a faulty sensor. One little thing would suggest picking at hardware store is a hand held heat gun, than you can check your temp. of radiator and in most cases there is not a problem
except faulty sensor.   Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Dave Atherton

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 03:45:32 AM »
Norm, thinking little more about your shut down nod reset and shut down right way, this does
Not sound like a temp problem. First suggestion sensor fault Atmophere pressure sensor. This
will over ride all of the 5 volt sensors that will derate engine. Something you can change out very easy and cost of sensor is around $ 138.00. I can walk you through install of sensor and location
sensor located on engine. Let me know your engine S/N on your engine.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Norm Green

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 03:52:03 AM »
Joel and Dave, Thanks for the advice and insight.  It is still raining tonight but is suppose to start to clear some tomorrow.  I will check the coolant level in the surge tank.  If I understand your comments, the engine will de-rate if the coolant level reaches a certain low point.  This sounds like this is independent of actual coolant or engine temp, which appeared normal, and the "system" is reacting in a precautionary manner.  I will update when I check the level tomorrow. 

Dave, regarding your second comment, is there anyway to easily test for this fault?  Thanks again.
Norm & Cynthia Green
Franklin, TN
2018 Entegra Cornerstone 45W
Previous, four different Beaver coaches

Dave Atherton

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015, 05:32:11 AM »
Cat ET will pick up the code present however what is your S/N number because code number
will be different on many engines. Knowing your S/N  I can give you info. Atmosphere Sensor
break out and info. that will show on your silver leaf that will help confirm correct sensor problem.
reason mentioned the atmosphere sensor this sensor will over ride the other 5 volt sensors again
that will derate engine. You are long way from Quartzsite other wise I can connect cat et to your
motorhome. Second been doing this a long time ( cat equipment repair ) and have real good
understanding area of derate problem. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Dave Atherton

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2015, 02:23:01 PM »
Norm, back again with your problem. As I said earlier you have a event code present and will reset
after the event has passed or cleared itself. Cat ET may and may not pick up this code, being a
sensor involved here causing the derate as stated first (Atmosphere Pressure sensor would be first
choice). Where we stand now in order to go deeper into your problem, will need more information
on model of engine and engine S/N. Each engine has different values with the electronic's and cannot
out guess what is what. As stated been doing this a long time and many engine problems. There are a few things that can be checked and very possible before getting deeper problem may be simple.
You mentioned driving in heavy rain than light, than derate. Problem could be a sensor connection
that taken on water ( again one of the 5 volt sensors that derate ). Leave set,may dry or clear problem. Water does funny things with electrical connections. You mentioned review of Silver
Leaf everything was normal on readouts again leads me back to connection to a sensor with water.
This about all I can help you with information that is posted.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Norm Green

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 12:54:56 AM »
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this topic but wife insisted that I take her and my 14 year old grandson into Washington DC today, weather was great.  Ok, I check the coolant level and it was low, although I never received any indication via a dash lite or temperature indicator.  I am never sure how full to fill the reservoir.  I can now see coolant in the sight glass but the sight glass isn't full.  Anyway, I put in about 2 quarts of coolant.

The S/N of the C13 engine is LEE01304.  I do have an extended warranty and would certainly prefer to have a qualified tech do any repairs.  I have a couple of places that service CAT within about 5 or 6 miles from my location.  I had planned to call them to see if they could work me in tomorrow morning.
Norm & Cynthia Green
Franklin, TN
2018 Entegra Cornerstone 45W
Previous, four different Beaver coaches

Joel Ashley

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 01:40:39 AM »
If your surge tank is anything like mine, Norm, you should be able to see where the sensor device is mounted in the side of the tank.  As long as fluid is above that, it shouldn't trigger a derate episode.  Be sure you've checked for the cause of the fluid loss though;  a minor and hard-to-spot hose or tank leak will only get worse.  Your CAT facility can examine thoroughly for you, and check for codes in case there's something else responsible for the derate that's still not reset.  Dave's analysis of your serial number should be helpful also.

Joel
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 01:49:16 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Norm Green

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 03:04:19 AM »
Thought I would give you an update on my particular coach issue.  I managed to drive the coach to the service center this morning but not without challenges.  When I started the coach, I immediately noticed that the "check engine" and "stop engine" light came on.  I proceeded to drive to the service center.  After about 3 miles while in route, for the first time, the engine temperature began to increase.  I should point out that I am able to monitor my engine and transmission vitals easily because I have installed the Silver Leaf PC software using a Samsung tablet and Bluetooth connection using the data link located under the dash.  Before I reached the service center, the engine temp reached as high as 241. 
After arriving at the service center, the tech attached his computer to the engine data port located next to the engine.  The only fault codes were for low coolant level and overheating.  The tech began to add CAT extended coolant to the surge tank.  He added 7, yes seven gallons of antifreeze coolant.  The tank was still not full but it was lunch time.  During the break, I inspected the coach to see if there was a leek.  Sure enough, I observed a consistent drip of antifreeze originating from somewhere. 
After lunch, a new tech came out to inspect the coach.  We discussed the leak I observed and after investigation found a small water hose that was leaking.  The hose had been rubbing part of the frame and wore through.  In fact, there was two spots with the same wear pattern.  The tech removed the worn section of the hose and replaced it with new and then secured the hose from rubbing again and also covered it with a protective "hose sleeve" made of a larger diameter hose surrounding the primary hose.  The tech also noted that this had obviously be replace previously but nothing had been done to ensure that it would not rub through again.  The tech then proceeded to add another 6 gallons, yes another six gallons, of coolant for a total of 13 gallons.  This resolved my problem and I was able to continue our trip.  However, I learned several important lessons I want to pass along.  First, I was told my multiple techs that the surge tank should be filled at least to the filler tube and preferably until it over flows from the filler neck.  Do not relay on the sight glass only.  Second, the level in the sight glass is deceiving and the amount of coolant I observed, or thought I observed in the sight glass was probably residual fluid caught on the edge of the glass.  Third, I never once received an indication of low coolant by any light on the dash.  I still need to understand why and make corrections as needed.  I had no antifreeze on my driveway at home and I'm convinced that the leak began after I left home.  I'm lucky that it wasn't a bigger problem.  I was also told that CAT engines should all use extended life antifreeze or coolant, the red stuff.  Hope this helps others.
Norm & Cynthia Green
Franklin, TN
2018 Entegra Cornerstone 45W
Previous, four different Beaver coaches

Edward Buker

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 03:57:19 AM »
Norm,

Not all coaches have a low coolant sensor in the expansion tank. We do not have that sensor in our 2002 Marquis. Your block coolant temp sensor probably did not have coolant immersion at that level of the water jacket given all the antifreeze that you had to add. At 241F I am surprised that the ECU did not shut the engine down. Given the oil was handling most all the cooling (not adequately) under this low coolant condition did your service shop also change the oil? The oil usually runs 20 degrees or so hotter then the coolant temp but in this case it could have been even hotter. The oil itself has probably been degraded due to overheating. It is customary to do an oil change after a significant overheat situation as a precaution.

The other item you may want to keep an eye on is the water pump shaft seal if your block pump/circulator is driven by an external shaft arrangement. It is lubed and designed to survive immersed in antifreeze. If you see no seepage or leaks in the next few hundred miles then it probably will be fine. Not trying to be an alarmist, just prudent given the situation at hand.

Later Ed

Karl Welhart

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015, 08:41:44 PM »
Norm, Ed's advice is very good and you should watch for other issues very carefully.  There is another very important lesson in your situation.  If you get a "stop engine" light.  STOP the engine and determine the cause before driving any more.  With almost NO coolant in your engine, you could experience major damage... Additionally, I would (as Ed pointed out) get your oil changed as soon as possible.

Karl
Karl and Nancy Welhart, F36017
2014 Tiffin Allegro Bus 37AP (2014-current)
2002 Patriot (2002-2014)
1997 Monterey (1997-2002)
Niceville, Florida

George Harwell

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2015, 04:55:06 PM »
Norm, being that your system was so low with coolant I would suggest that the leak had been around for a long time, just leaking minute amounts after shutdown. After the system cooled the pressure dropped and the leak would vanish. Otherwise you would have probably detected it sooner. Kudos for being smart enough to search for the culprit causing the problem. Good to hear the fix wasn't too painful and you are once again a happy camper. Have a great 4th!

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2015, 11:00:17 PM »
Norm,
Consider adding a coolant recovery tank. You never have to guess about the amount of coolant in the surge tank. Parts at Auto Zone are >$20.
Steve
Steve
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2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Dave Atherton

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Re: Lost Engine Power
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2015, 04:03:28 AM »
Norm, Steve has a very good point and myself never to old to learn. Very good point made by Gerald
Farris at Hemet, Cal. Rally about loss recover tank at diesel round table. It very simple to
make and install ( plastic tank above radiator now stays full ) Cat 3126 series engines with
Freightliner plastic tanks is the most critical for coolant level because smaller size of tank. Very good setup via Beaver member enginuity. Concern that I must have missed about coolant
temp. 241 F and no shut down of engine while at Cat Dealer. Indication of coolant loss 13 gallons
fluid is a lot of fluid loss along with high heat temp. Main thing your up and running.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic