2002 Patriot Thunder - Suspension and Leveling System Problems

[Jerry Emert]

new panel

[Edward Buker]

Jerry,

To be clear, you now have a manual panel that works with that schematic or not? I thought you said the SMC panel failed and the manual panel did not work with that schematic?

Later Ed

[Jerry Emert]

Jerry,

To be clear, you now have a manual panel that works with that schematic or not? I thought you said the SMC panel failed and the manual panel did not work with that schematic?

Later Ed

If I said that it didn't work with the panel it was a typo.  I'll go back and change if necessary.  To answer, Yes I have the manual panel shown and it works well.  The schematic was given to me by the tech so I would have something showing how he wired the new manual panel. What he did is make a copy of the schematic for the system with the panel area blocked so he could draw in the new connections.
When I was negotiating to buy the coach I asked to see the SMC system work and it would not function.  I refused to buy unless all systems were demonstrated to be working.  The tech worked for the RV dealor at the time and he did it as part of the deal.  So I never saw the SMC system work.  The only reason I had the pic is that I was taking pics of everything.

[Robert Green]

Gentlemen your support has been outstanding and greatly appreciated during this stressful time.

The rig is back in our driveway. RVtech threw in the towel today.  He said he tried to reach Ken Carpenter but I don't know if they ever connected. The nice guy from Drew RV tried to help, but was quickly lost when learning that the system is not HWH.

Karl, thank you for making an ID on the panel and sending over the contact information to boot!  I'll give these guys a call. Lakewood is ~100 miles North. Not too bad.

Jerry, thanks for pulling up photos of your manual panel and providing schematics. Appreciate you digging up Nandy (?) LaFontaigne's phone number as well 813-409-8717.  I'll reach out to him right away.

Made a call to JoSam Alignment today. Super nice people. Can't help me, but they did pass me to:
Lester
Creative Coach
8250 State Road 33 North
Lakeland, FL 33809
863-984-3439
888-234-3439

Lester was formerly with Beaver and is suppose to know these rigs inside and out. He's back from vacation next Monday.  I'll be calling him first thing Monday morning.

Ed, I've re-read your post a few times. The disconnected air dump switch makes sense. RVtech connected the dash button and it too is working again. I may pull the wire again as the Bigfoot Panel is indeed handling that function as well. Getting the jacks down completely- can I use the manifolds in the rear bay (where the filters are located) to manually dump the jacks?  If the panel has already been swapped then that explains the cut wires RVtech found.

At this time, still no air in the front bags. The hydraulic reservoir was filled.   The control panel was activated.  Fluid pumped out on the shop floor at two of the jacks, while two others (front left and right rear I believe I was told) extended.  Explains the empty hydraulic reservoir.

So the systems are not connected - but they are interdependent as the hydraulic jacks have to be down and trigger a sensor that tells the over the road suspension it's clear to engage. Right?

So if I bleed down the jacks and get them fully up, I should be able to check the ride height valve up front and the solenoid located up front too with nothing inhibiting the air system. Yes?

Another question, has anyone converted the SMC to HWH.

[Jerry Emert]

Bob, I am not that smart on these beasts yet but...as I understand it, the travel mode air is controlled by a mechanical connection, ride height sensors, between the frames and the axles.  One in the front center, and two in the rear on either side.  What is dependent on the levelers is for the coach to be low enough for the ride height sensors to be in the range that they will sense that the bags need air.  If it is lifted the sensors will not sense that air is needed.  I probably should have just ignored this part because I really am a newbie like you.  Ed and Fred and Gerald are the real rock stars among others who really know what they are doing.  So again, good luck and I will withdraw before I cause real confusion.
Jerry

[Edward Buker]

Bob,

The hydraulic system rams have to be fully retracted, at that point the foot that would contact the axles to lift the coach is as far from the axle as possible. The hydraulic system is no longer supporting the coach. In the ram retracted position the backside of that foot pushes on a push button switch that indicates this jack is in the full up position with a light on the panel. The manual panel looks like it has one light per position where the original SMC system had all of the four switches wired in series and they all had to all be fully up to turn on the "all up light".

When the hydraulic rams are all up, the coach is left to rest on the air bags and the over the road air system that lifts the coach using the air bags/air springs. (same thing) The air suspension now has the full range to lower or raise the coach as needed based on the control rods that are tied to the air valves and fixed points on the suspension. The control rods are preset to inflate the air bags to 10 inches top to bottom plates on the bags for most of these coaches. (Your manual would most likely have the plate to plate dimension for your coach year and model) If the hydraulic rams were extended down holding up the coach, so that the air springs were more than the 10 inch spacing between the top and bottom air bag plates, the air valves would be closed and no air would flow into the air suspension. That is the interaction between the two suspensions, they do not work together but the hydraulic system can prevent the air system from working in this manner. Hope this is clear.

The leaking jacks hopefully are hose leaks and not hydraulic ram leaks given these rams are not readily available. If hose leaks then they need to be fixed, if the hydraulic ram seal is leaking I would check around and see if anyone can fix them in FL. If not HWH in Moscow Iowa will convert your coach to air leveling for about $6K. It is a nice system as a last resort if you cannot fix yours. I think the focus now is get the system leak free, then get the manual extend and retract system to work in all four positions. At that point, any issues that you might have with the over the road air leveling system would be easily fixed given its simplicity and available parts. Most problems are traced to an air leak at a hose fitting or a defective or sticking air valve.

Later Ed

[Robert Green]

Ed:
Perfect.  Got it.  I have a local shop that makes the hoses so not a big deal.  To your point, understand the rams may require more effort if not in proper working order.  Thanks!

[Robert Green]

Dumb question - maybe.

The BigFoot Panel replaced the SMC panel.
The BigFoot Panel was part of the conversion to manual control leveling
If I now have a manual leveling system - is it reasonable - and technically possible - that the IDS Electronic Control Unit (ECU) has been bypassed?

I ask because I am curious as to why the leveling system charges when the control panel is powered ON? 
If the system is now manual, would it not wait until the individual switches are activated before pumping up the jacks?
Per the mechanic, one side pumps up and raises the coach at an extreme angle when the control panel is powered ON.  Why would the system do this on it's own if it is a manual system?

I thought these manifolds were part of the hydraulic jacks. but find they are part of the air system.  I tested each and all are charged with air.  Assume these let me fine tune to the correct ride height? 

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Bob,
Those ports are for purging the air system of water. They should be opened about 1/month or so individually until the air and any moisture is depleted.
Ride height is controlled by 2 rod/valve adjustments just forward of the rear axle and one just aft of the front axle in the center of the coach. The actual adjustment is made by sliding an arm  that is attached to the airbag(s) air valve up or down to increase or decrease the amount of air in the bags. The 2 in the rear affect side to side leveling and the front one front to rear. I think the spec range on air bag inflation is 9.5" - 10.5" top to bottom. This can be a dangerous adjustment as the coach can drop suddenly if the valve arm is allowed to slide too far so you want to have the whole coach elevated so if the frame drops it won't crush the person making the adjustment.
Steve

[Robert Green]

Steve
Thanks.  Very helpful.  Appreciate the information and the safety advisory. 

[Edward Buker]

Robert,

As Steve mentioned those valves have no direct affect on the air leveling except they can deplete the air in the system. They serve no purpose in the operation of the coach except to bleed off moisture. The ride height is set by the valves and rods that I mentioned in my last post.

The activation of your panel should not enable any hydraulic ram and that is the crux of your problem. The activation of the panel should enable the up or down switches for each position but not start any movement. That is the point of a manual panel.

It is either wired wrong or you have some defective switches, more than likely wired wrong. The IDS control unit would have to be disconnected in this conversion and the wires that controlled the ram movement would have to have been moved to the manual switch panel.

The way you would use this manual system is to first dump air with the air dump switch (whichever one works, panel or console) until the green needle on the dash gauge reaches zero air and the coach is fully down. Then using some level bubbles for right left, front rear, (these simple gauges are available at camping world) you would incrementally use the 4 positions to raise and level the coach while trying not to flex or twist it. So each position, adjust a little at a time until level. On the way back down same small increments of dropping the coach, using individual position switches, until all rams are fully up watching the indicator lights. Once up that position switch would not be activated again because is hard on the pump and seals.

The slides would go out before you dump the air and come back in after the hydraulic rams are fully retracted and the coach is started and fully aired up to ride height. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Edward Buker]

Robert,

One more thought. The wires in these coaches are printed with labeling. You may have to trace a wire from the side console to the brain module in the dash to sort out the labeling, if they extended those wires to the armrest panel, as part of the install of the manual panel. If you can figure out the wiring of one hydraulic position that works, the rest would just be repeats of the same wiring configuration once you have figured out the labeling code and apply that logic to the others.

Later Ed

[Robert Green]

Ed
This is the best correspondence course I've ever taken.  Deeply grateful for you instruction. 

Now that the rig is here and I can inspect and evaluate it myself, this is all coming together quite clearly. 

I want to get the hydraulic jacks up completely and then keep the leveling system off.  If I have to take off hoses to bleed down the jacks I'll do so. 

I'll then see if I can repair/replace the  front ride height valve system.  As none of my front bags are inflating, I'm hopeful that a repair/replacement of these parts will get the suspension working up front. 

If I can get the suspension working then I can get it up the road to an expert and have the hydraulics addressed (which will get my main slide working again).  I've got a good list of resources.  I'll do some phone work and hopefully find the right man for the job. 

Regardless, if I can restore the air suspension, then I'm in much better shape! 

[Edward Buker]

Bob,

Just be absolutely sure that your coach is fully supported by appropriate blocking, or heavy duty jacks, before you ever venture under there. The air suspension can drop the coach as can the hydraulic system and crush you. These systems are not to be relied on to keep you safe if you are working under the coach. Given your suspension issues I would have the coach fully supported with a fool proof set of supports. Word to the wise....

Later Ed

[Frank Towle]

Great review of how this semi-complex system works.  Fortunately, my previous coach was a '96 Patriot with the same air-bag suspension with manual 'ground' jacks.  Worked just fine for years except for minor jack seal leaks solved with auto-trans seal treatment and one-time failure of the rubber connector between vertical rod and two-way air valve - thank you Lakewood.

Now have the 'Auto' frame to axle leveling system that I've posted on previously with fix to positioning of black box under the control panel - IT MUST BE EXACTLY LEVEL for hydraulic jacks to work correctly.  Happy with results for now.

The two way air valves can leak air and/or become totally disconnected causing symptoms reported of front airbags not inflating because air valve rod maybe/is in dropped position indicating that coach is way high and is trying to dump air to lower coach. 

Picture valve fixed to frame (can move up and down with coach), control rod attached to axle (fixed to level of ground via axle). If rod end is high  then frame is too low = add air to airbag(s).  If rod end is low, frame is too high = dump air from airbags(s).   This means if the front air valve rod end is disconnected and has dropped down no air will be added to front airbags.  Believe me this $1.50 rubber connector WILL rot out and cause this problem. 

All safety measures must be taken to prevent injuries.  Can't imagine result of coach dropping on a person...  My service center uses hardwood 6" x 6" posts set vertical between lift rails (floor) and coach frame to avoid inadvertent drops - and they know what they are doing...