2002 Patriot Thunder - Suspension and Leveling System Problems

[Robert Green]

Let me begin by apologizing for posting this under another forum section and again here under Technical Support.  I probably should have started here.

Hello All:
New guy here.  I'm located near Ft. Myers, Florida.

In need of information to help mechanic sort out our suspension and leveling problems.  The rig drove fine when we first bought it a few weeks ago.   Shortly after buying it used, the front air bags now don't inflate.  Additonally, the mechanic tells me that when the coach is started, the hydraulic leveling system (I believe it is called an SMC IDS system - no jacks to the ground) pushed the chassis up high on one side.  So might have a compounded issue where the leveling rams are engaged AND the front air bags are not inflating.  The term jarring doesn't adequately describe the experience of moving the coach down the road.

The mechanic is struggling with the system as he has no material to guide diagnostics.  Informs me the two systems are interconnected, and that he needs schematics and technical manuals to get this worked out.  Many calls to various manufactures have yielded little data.

I was hopeful he could isolate that leveling system and shut it down, then get the front bags working.  At least the coach could be moved without horrendous jarring.  Without more information I'm afraid we're out of business.  I've found threads that have manuals and schematics for earlier Beaver coaches, but have not found detailed technical material for the 2002 Patriot Thunder.

Appreciate any help and guidance.  I have tried to seek out a subject matter expert who can consult with our mechanic (for fee) or could provide technical documentation.  Left messages at Beaver Coach, Drew RV, Rob Pierce at SumBum RV, and others.

Thank you!

[George H. Wall]

Contact Beaver Coach Sales in Bend, OR. The people ROUTINELY work on these leveling systems, as they have mine. They can inform yoyr mechanic or send plans for the system.  Henry

[Karl Welhart]

Robert, welcome to BAC and the forum.  Sorry for having this type of experience with a new (to you) coach.  The only connection between the air bags and leveling system is an air dump of the air bags when you go the set the hydraulic jacks.  I would simply start by checking to see if your air lines are not leaking or the air dump valve is not leaking.  If the air bags inflate normally after starting the engine, then your problem may be in the hydraulic system not retracting the jacks before drive down the road. This could be a control unit, bad solenoid or even just low on fluid.

I have never seen any technical information on this leveling system. Let me know what you find out and please do not drive your coach if the jacks have not retracted fully....

Karl

[Jerry Emert]

It sounds like the same systems in my 2003 when I bought it.  The SMC system was not working so a technician at Orlando RV rebuilt the system so it is now manual only.  There are folks on here that drive to Oregon to have that done for about 3K so I considered myself lucky.  As was said the air and hydraulic systems are not connected.  The air dumps probably do have a connection of some sort.  Mine has also had air leveling problems that the extended warranty is taking care of.  The problems seem to be in the SMC control board that has been replaced by the manual panel.  At one point a jack got stuck down and made the coach lean heavily to port.  Turned out to be an easy fix but the Hydraulic system is frustrating because no one understands it.  I think I have some info and diagrams on the SMC system in the Coach.  It's in the shop getting Changed over to ELC so It will be a day or so to find them.  Good luck I know your pain!
Jerry

[Robert Green]

Henry, Karl, Jerry - Thanks for the quick reply!  Greatly appreciate the advice and guidance. 

Jerry - Appreciate your offer to send over material.  It's helpful to see someone who's tackled similar issues successfully.


Update:
- I did get some material sent over from one of the forum members.  Too large to attach but happy to share if needed.
- My mechanic has made several calls to Beaver Motor Coach, has the name of the expert, just hasn't been able to connect yet.
- Seems the touch pad is a bit hacked.  Mechanic is working to sort out the cut wires and disconnected terminals.
- Through my own outreach I have found some highly recommended service centers in Florida for the Beaver:
   * JoSam Alignment, Orlando - 407-438-7020
   * Alliance Coach, Wildwood - 352-330-3800 (previously the Monaco Service Center)
   * Drew RV, Ruskin - 813-645-7870

Had a really good conversation with Drew at Drew RV.  He extremely knowledgeable and is an authorized HWH Service Center/Dealer.  He regularly works on Beaver's of my vintage. 

Drew has extended the offer to help my mechanic.  Once I provide the VIN and Monaco coach number, he'll pull manuals, reach out to HWH tech support, and help get my local guy moving forward.  If we can make it roadworthy I'll drive it up to his shop - if not we'll be paying for a long distance tow. 

Will keep you posted.  Thanks again for the warm welcome and helpful support.   

[Karl Welhart]

Bob,

Thanks for the offer, but you may have noticed after almost 20 years of owning Beaver coaches, I now have a 2014 Allegro Bus...  BTW, unless someone changed your jacks to HWH they are not HWH.  They are a SMC proprietary system... Replacement parts are not available except for the manual control panel made by BCS in Bend, OR.  This replacement panel will fix some of your problems, but if you need replacement jacks (as I did) you are SOL.  I know because another BAC member with a 2002 PT has some internal leak issue with his system.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

Karl

[Edward Buker]

Robert,

The Manual retract button on the SMC leveling pad bypasses most all of the circuitry. If the panel has power that button should work. Once retracted (if it works) you should confirm that all the rams are up with a light and a mirror if you can. There are small button switches that each ram pushes on in the up position and sometimes they can age and stick and have the indicator light come on for all up when they are not. Once those rams are fully up in all 4 positions the coach should air up with the engine running and level itself with the air leveling manual valves that are run by mechanical rods that are tied to suspension members. If the coach is not lowered to below normal ride height it will not air up.

There are two manual valves in the back and one for the front. If you can get no retraction of jacks check fuses that run the control pad. The main brain of the unit is under the liftable panel on the dash on my 2002 Marquis. The next thing to check if you cannot get manual retract to happen, but the panel lights are on, is the large solenoid switch on the hydraulic pump under the front entry steps. See if the small 12V leads see 12v when you press the manual retract. Also if the main lead on the solenoid has 12V to ground. If it is seeing 12V on the small leads but not passing 12V on the large leads then that solenoid switch will have to be changed. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Robert Green]

Karl
Thanks for the information. I was confused by the HWH reference. I found nothing in the material referencing them, only SMS.

Ed:
Thanks. I intend to pass this on to the mechanic. I am hopeful that he can reach BMC tomorrow.  Seems the control panel had some disconnected and cut wires. When the rig is started, the rear bags air up and the right front and rear hydraulic rams crank up that one side of the coach. Even if the front bags were getting air, the hydraulic jacks have them stretched out.

The mechanic is able to manually adjust the jacks down, but the control panel doesn't seem to providing proper functionality. He is also shying away from checking the front ride height control valve due to safety concerns.

Unfortunately the SMS manual I received doesn't match the control panel, so we still have knowledge gaps. I'll see if I can create a small image file of the control panel. Maybe someone will recognize the unit.

Another interesting thing is the air dump button on the dash. When checked one of the wires was disconnected. Reattached we can now hear a click sound when depressed, but don't know what that means.

More details as they develop. Thanks everyone.

[Robert Green]

Panel is a "Quadra eze I"

[Keith Moffett]

Hi Robert and welcome to the club.
That panel doesnt look like anything I have ever seen in a Beaver, and we have had two.  I would guess that someone was having trouble with the SMC control board and this was their answer.
I am sure that Ken Carpenter at Beaver Coach Sales can work out something to get you an original control panel if only the manual version they have had built in house.  Since all the wiring in a Beaver is marked for its aplication every couple feet, reconnecting should be do able.
I can tell you that when the SMC system is initiated it dumps the air first.  That should be the only shared portion with the air system.  Some coaches did have air leveling as well but I dont believe coaches like ours did.
We all had issues with our new to us Beavers.  This will get better. 
Allow me to second the notion that driving before getting the jacks up will compound your problems,

All the best
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Robert,

What has happened to your coach is the SMC era auto leveling pad must have failed and without a source someone has converted the unit to a straight manual panel. This is similar to what BCS has done in creating their own panel. This may actually be an advantage at this point, there is no fundamental reason that panel that you have will not work. It has to be wired properly so that each jack can be raised and lowered manually and the jack solenoids and pump must actuate properly. There was one Beaver owner that had a manual control created by someone in Florida if I remember right and the person had the skill to wire it in. If you search this forum you may find that info and be able to call that shop if your current tech cannot get all jacks to work. Once this manual panel is working and jacks are all up then the rest of the leveling system can be checked out. If I had this panel I would not go looking for an SMC panel. This panel also had an air dump position on the key switch which is why the air dump manual switch wires were disconnected, they moved that function to the leveling pad. You dump all the air manually before using hydraulic leveling. You also must retract all the hydraulic jacks before the air leveling over the road system can be used. These systems cannot be used together.

The current over the road air leveling has three valves, one in the front that fills and removes air as needed in all the front air bags and two valves in the rear, one on each side that controls the tilt of the coach and rear ride height. Until all the hydraulic jacks are fully up you cannot test that system because the air leveling valves may be held closed by the height that the hydraulic jacks are maintaining.

BCS in Bend would know how to wire that panel, you may offer to pay them for a techs time on the phone and a schematic of the manual system if they are willing to help.

Later Ed

[Karl Welhart]

Robert,

This is a "Big Foot" leveling system control panel.  It is made by IDS and someone has tried to adapt that control panel to the SMC leveling system.  If you google "Big Foot" you find their service center in Lakewood FL.  I would recommend that you take you unit to them for repairs.  Sorry, I am on the road in Utah and do not have my files on Big Foot/Quatra Manufacturing with the contact information.

Good luck,

Karl

[Karl Welhart]

Robert,

Here is the link to the contact information in Lakeland, FL. http://thebigfootleveler.com/uploads/Florida_5-31-13.pdf

Karl

[Jerry Emert]

Robert,

What has happened to your coach is the SMC era auto leveling pad must have failed and without a source someone has converted the unit to a straight manual panel. This is similar to what BCS has done in creating their own panel. This may actually be an advantage at this point, there is no fundamental reason that panel that you have will not work. It has to be wired properly so that each jack can be raised and lowered manually and the jack solenoids and pump must actuate properly. There was one Beaver owner that had a manual control created by someone in Florida if I remember right and the person had the skill to wire it in. If you search this forum you may find that info and be able to call that shop if your current tech cannot get all jacks to work. Once this manual panel is working and jacks are all up then the rest of the leveling system can be checked out. If I had this panel I would not go looking for an SMC panel. This panel also had an air dump position on the key switch which is why the air dump manual switch wires were disconnected, they moved that function to the leveling pad. You dump all the air manually before using hydraulic leveling. You also must retract all the hydraulic jacks before the air leveling over the road system can be used. These systems cannot be used together.

The current over the road air leveling has three valves, one in the front that fills and removes air as needed in all the front air bags and two valves in the rear, one on each side that controls the tilt of the coach and rear ride height. Until all the hydraulic jacks are fully up you cannot test that system because the air leveling valves may be held closed by the height that the hydraulic jacks are maintaining.

BCS in Bend would know how to wire that panel, you may offer to pay them for a techs time on the phone and a schematic of the manual system if they are willing to help.

Later Ed

I'm the one that had the system reworked into a manual system in Florida.  I've put the tech's info in the post of same name in the other section.  Here are pics (if it worked) of the schematic for the rewiring, the new working manual panel and the old SMC panel that was replaced by the manual panel.
Jerry

[Jerry Emert]

Panel