Author Topic: Electrical help needed.  (Read 13628 times)

Steve Adams

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Electrical help needed.
« on: June 29, 2010, 04:17:39 AM »
2001 Contessa Naples:

After being parked for 12 days an electrical power cable shorted against a chassis ground. Visual inspection shows all the insulation melted off the entire cable, about 6 inches long. What I can't figure out is what its connected to.

At this point all coach systems appear to be working. We will start up tomorrow to see if there are other systems that may be impacted. It appears that the cable is connected to a solenoid that is attached to the side of what appears to be a pump. On the bottom of the pump is a large cylinder (filter?) approximately 12 inches long and 6 inches in diameter. There are 4 lines running to from the pump to unknown destinations. I think its the power to the hydraulic leveling system. When the cable burnt up the solenoid chattered quite a bit for about 7-8 minutes before it died down.

What do I need to do power wise to remove the cable and test the solenoid? Getting a new cable should be pretty easy, not sure about the solenoid. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Steve

Edward Buker

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 05:15:47 AM »
Steve,

I cannot tell you what the system is that had the wire burn up, but your instinct is probably correct. It sounds like this wire could have had the insulation wear through. You described that the insulation melted off. It seems a litte strange that this would take place while just sitting still, so be a little suspicious about that being the root cause. You do need to find the root cause to be comfortable that it will not happen again.

You should be able to take an ohm meter and measure across the coil of the solenoid, with it disconnected, and also measure from a coil lead to ground. You should see some relatively low ohm value, I'm guessing 6 ohms or less, more likely 2 ohms or less if it is a big solenoid, for the coil resistance and a very high value, maybe infinity on the meter measuring the coil lead to chassis ground. You are checking that the coil is continuous, not shorted due to insulation melting, and that the coil itself is not shorted to ground. If that is O.K. , replace the wire and try the motorhome systems until you get that solenoid and pump to function. If it operates normally and that wire is not getting excessively warm then you should be good to go.

Consider also that the wire could have melted due to the 7 or 8 minutes of operation of a system that was not meant to be run continuously, like a starter might do. I think that is not the most likely case but you need to be prepared that if this solenoid/pump started to run again on its own, that you have a game plan to shut it down with switches at the battery or by disconnecting it if that is what really caused the wire to burn. That would then give you time to sort out what is causing this circuit to fire up. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

Steve Adams

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 05:51:18 AM »
Ed,

Thanks for the detail on how to test the solenoid. My new theory is that the solenoid is the culprit which caused it to draw excessive amperage from the battery and fried the wire. The problem there is that the fuse (mounted upside down on the top of the battery compartment) did not blow.

I started the coach to see if the leveling system would work and it did not. Neither did the superslide. That was a surprise. I'm guessing that the hydraulic pump is doing double duty between the levelers and the slide. The bedroom slide works fine, electric motor, no hydraulics.

Any other ideas?

Thanks again, Steve


Bill Sprague

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 03:40:47 PM »
Quote from: Steve Adams
....Neither did the superslide. That was a surprise. I'm guessing that the hydraulic pump is doing double duty between the levelers and the slide. The bedroom slide works fine, electric motor, no hydraulics.
Our '04 Monteray uses the same pump for the two front slides as for the levelers.  It can be a bad system as there is no mechanical backup for slide retraction and no means to lock the slides in if a hose fails.   If the pump or hose fails with the slides out, you can't go anywhere to get it fixed.  When mine was about a year old, a hose failed just as the slide came fully in.  I nervously drove to Wildwood with the slide creeping out.  It crept out about 4 inches by the time I got there.  


Good luck with the solenoid!


Edward Buker

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 06:55:05 PM »
Steve,

Had a computer issue this morning and I did not get on the web until just a couple of minutes ago....

 You and Bill are right that the pump system serves both the levelers and the main slide. I am not overly familiar with the solenoid in question but I believe it fires the electric motor, which is a 12V motor much like an automotive small series wound starter motor which drives the pump. The solenoid enables a low current drive circuit to close a large switch, the solenoid in this case, which has contacts that are large enough to handle the current load to drive the motor. There should be a large gauge wire from the batteries to a large lug on the solenoid. There should also be another large lug with a lead to the motor. You can momentarily use a large wire to jumper the solenoid just to see if the motor still operates. If it does then you need to determine if the wire was burned due to an external short from the wire to the frame, or burned because the solenoid was stuck in the closed contact position causing it run beyond its normal duty cycle(internal spring broke or contacts fused together), or the drive circuit fired the solenoid erroneously and continued to fire it. The goal would be to replace the burned wire, test the solenoid, test the pump motor, test the systems that control the solenoid and replace what is the root cause of the problem as well as those components that were damaged by the continuous operation. The Bend Service center may be of help to highlight what the most customary causes of fail are that relate to your situation as well as a good parts source. Hope this helps.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 08:31:04 PM by 910 »

Steve Adams

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2010, 05:11:57 AM »
Ed and all,

Had an RV tech out this morning. The motor that runs the hydraulic pump has burnt out. We loosened one of the hydraulic lines and were able to bring the slide in manually and I've got it braced with 2x4's to keep it in. We will be taking it into the shop in the morning to address the jacks. We will pull the pump and get a new one on order.

Thanks to everyone for their assistance. I'll keep this thread updated as we progress.

Steve

Edward Buker

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2010, 06:13:06 PM »
Steve,

Glad you have found some help and were able to get the slide in.

These motors are not rated for continuous operation and if they are allowed to run for very long they will self destruct due to overheating. I am not sure what caused the motor to run on its own and when it is replaced you need to be sure that the component that caused the problem is found. It could be the leveling controller, it could be the solenoid, or even the slide switch, or a wireing issue. Having a way to disconnect this motor with a main battery switch (hope your coach has one, if not it would be wise to add one) if it happened again would be a good defense. Hope your problem fix goes well and you are back in order quickly.

We were in Portland several weeks back. Our daughter has been living in Portland for three years going to Lewis and Clark Law School. We were there for her graduation and ate at Andina's in the Pearl District for a celebration dinner..... very good food.

later Ed


Steve Adams

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 06:22:29 PM »
Good advice Ed. Thanks!

We'll check out Andina's soon.

Steve

Bruce Benson

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 01:46:22 PM »
My motor burned up due to running continuously for too long of a period due to the switch on the level controller sticking in the manual retract position.  This may have been due to the location of the controller being directly below the vent window which sometimes gets left open in the parking operation.  These switches do not seem to be water proof.  

Perhaps at the same time or perhaps due to corrosion, the board around the switch overheated as well.  I obtained a new switch from the switch manufacturer and rewired the board to go around the damaged areas.  The switch manufacturer was nice enough to send me samples of the switches, in fact I have many more than I will ever need.  If you need this particular switch, please contact me.

I now make it a point to listen to the motor during all operations to insure that it is not running excessively.

Edward Buker

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 02:23:35 PM »
Bruce,
 Thanks for sharing of your problem source and the cure. It is good to know that the retract switch can be a weak point.  I also have forgotten to close this small side window before but will certainly pay more attention to that possibility in the future.

Later Ed

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 02:50:51 PM »
RVA tech tole me to clean out the switchs with contact cleaner (Radio Shack) and air pressure like the key board cleaners (dry air) can help prevent problems caused by dirt, dust and moisture.

Steve Adams

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 09:30:59 PM »
Got the assembly back today. New electric motor, new solenoid (relay) and assorted electrical cables. It should be installed in the next day or so.

My plan is to install the assembly with the reservoir filled. My thoughts at that point are to run the motor intermittently with the reservoir cap off to bleed air in the lines as the fluid returns to the reservoir. Once it runs with no air detected I plan to run the slide in and the jacks up then top off the reservoir to the fill line. Is there a flaw in this plan?

Thanks, Steve

Gerald Farris

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 11:12:02 PM »
Steve,
Your plan sounds like it is exactly the same way that I would do it.

Gerald

Keith Moffett

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2010, 01:25:45 PM »
Food for thought:
Hydraulic pump on the RVA system uses Dextron ATF.  So does the power steering.  I changed the ATF for the power steering per the manual.  I should have used a bucket and pumped new through the whole system because the mixed fluid is dark right away.  
Could this be a weak spot in the hydraulics for the jacks and perhaps further the burn out of the pump motor?  I dont see any reference to a complete fluid change in any manual.
2007 Patriot Thunder
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Gerald Farris

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Re: Electrical help needed.
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 04:43:11 PM »
The pump for the power steering and hydraulic cooling fan motor runs anytime that the engine is running, and therefore the fluid in that system is subjected to continuous heat and wear that necessitates the filter and fluid changes.

 The hydraulic jack pump runs a very short amount of time in comparison to the power steering pump and therefore the heat that causes fluid breakdown is not a problem and no fluid change is necessary.

As for the idea about flushing the power steering system when you change the fluid, it would be better to remove all of the old fluid, but if it is not preformed properly, and you let the pump receive air you will do more damage than benefit. Since the fluid in the hoses is the only fluid that will be removed by flushing (the cooling fan would have to be engaged and the power steering would have to be fully turned both directions when flushing to remove all fluid) it is not recommended.

The best way to extend pump life is to use Allison Transynd fluid instead of Dextron. Transynd has a higher sheer strength and is more heat resistant than Dextron, but it is more expensive.

Gerald  
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 01:51:48 AM by 14 »