Author Topic: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter  (Read 39164 times)

David T. Richelderfer

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Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2015, 08:55:34 AM »
I might throw this one out to Ed and Gerald who've, among others, commented in previous threads rather positively about Toyos.  It would appear the M144 is an improvement wear-wise over its predecessor, a "truck" tire which, much to Toyo's chagrin, I take it was often overloaded by coach manufacturers, resulting in wear and failures.   Posts here and elsewhere allude to Toyo pulling support for the prior model in Motorhome use.  So I'm not sure the wear concern that Henderson's and others report is assignable to the M144 and its recent design more specifically aimed at the RV market.

My question is regarding the somewhat stiffer ride you've noted on the Toyos, even Ed's M144's.  The tire weighs more and the sidewall flexes less than the XZA2 Energy, thus the firmer sensation I take it.  If the Michelin sidewall bulges more, do you believe that translates into the coach sitting a bit lower... even if it's only a half an inch?  I ask because our particular model scrapes the back end occasionally, often even when I hit the air raise switch to compensate.  I put a Roadmaster roller on the hitch years ago, but still drag sidewalks, and my own driveway entry despite angled crossing, etc. - kinda tired of terrorizing my mudflap and my concrete.  Every half inch counts.  I don't need to get new tire's that may actually drop me lower than the current G670's do.

I had leaned to the XZA2's because one of my goals for some time has been to maximize the ride, which has approached but never quite reached the "floating down the road" impression I'd always associated with such coaches as we drive.  It's the main reason we're going to Henderson's.

There are so many good reports here and elsewhere re. the M144's, the build dates are so ridiculously more recent... and think how many rallies we could afford to go to or camp fees paid with $1000-$1200 in savings... that I may yet go with them.  The consideration that they could ride a smidge higher than the Michelins may just overcome my endeavor toward the ultimate "Cadillac" ride.  And Henderson's may discover another reason I haven't achieved it yet anyway.

Joel
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KC Snellgrove

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2015, 08:04:38 PM »
Ed, yes I am also very tired of damaging my mud flap to the point it is now mangled. I am considering Toyos because they are fresher then Michelins tires you can get. Also it only takes about 5 days for Toys to be ordered and received. My question is will you purchase tires from Henderson’s? If no where? When I talked to Henderson they told me to put the tires on prior to coming to them for their assessment of my coach. I am looking forward to your comments ED, since this is the first diesel RV that I have owned.

Thank you, KC Snellgrove
2005 Monterey Olivia Jean

Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2015, 09:15:05 PM »
Hi KC.  Just spoke again with Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City.  They said that the Toyos they've been getting have just started showing 2015 codes, so they're a bit older than I'd originally thought.  But January/Feb. 2015 Japanese Toyos is better than German Michelins from 18 months ago.  They still downplay the importance of the date codes, and wouldn't be overly concerned until the tires were 2 years old.  Seems to me the Michelins are approaching that closely enough.  Dickman's keeps their Toyo stock up so they're pretty much on hand when needed.  They ordered in Michelins for me last week, but still encourage the Toyo M144.  Your Milwaukie dealer probably doesn't move that many M144's to keep them in stock like Dickman's.

Like David R., it's tempting to wait until Spring after winter production schedules have upped more recent stock levels;  but we want to do a little off-season traveling, and though they are in good shape externally, Monty Rae's tires are well over 9 years old.  They may not be so pretty on the inside.

When I asked Dickman's about ride height, he indicated the Toyo's may ride a little higher due to the stiffer sidewall, but he couldn't say how much higher - even a half inch may be a bit much to expect.  I doubt anyone's ever broached the question before such that comparison measurements were worth the effort to take;  easy enough to understand that.  I might measure my hub center to ground before and after, whichever make of tire I get, so I know the difference from the Goodyears at least.

Like you, I'm hoping Ed and/or Gerald replies here before we boogie off on our endeavor.  Like most here, I value their input.  If you search "Toyos" here on the forum, you'll find good discussions from earlier this year.

-Joel
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Jerry Emert

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2015, 09:42:30 PM »
As a guy with little experience with these big diesels I've got to chime in that my Coach rides like a dream with Hankook AH 12s.  Never driven any other so my opinion is worth what you paid for it!  Hankook 275 X 70 X 22.5 are about 310.00 on line before shipping (about 30 per tire.)
Jerry
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Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2015, 09:52:02 PM »
Thanks Jerry.  That as it turns out is less than half the cost of Michelins. 

I finally got a number from the FMCA program, and the difference between the XZA2 Energy and the Toyo M144 for 6 tires is not around $1000... it's over $1400.  The Toyos just keep looking better.  If I weren't so deep into those two brands already and up against my deadline, I'd give Hankooks more of my time.

Joel
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Edward Buker

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2015, 10:44:36 PM »
To those looking for some Toyo M144 comments.... I put over 6000 miles on a new set this summer and they gave a slightly stiffer ride then the Michelin XZA2 Energy tires I had in the same size. I had put over 30k miles on the Michelins. The Toyo stiffer sidewall difference translates into a little more secure control feeling steering. This all goes hand in hand, the more compliant the sidewall of Michelins flexes more so it is less precise in its tracking feel at the wheel. These are not huge differences between the two tires regarding ride vs control but they are there to notice when you switch between the two brands. They are both excellent choices.

My Toyos were manufactured in Japan and the Michelins that I had were made in Germany at the time and I consider both of those to be good quality sources in general for manufacturing. I felt safe traveling on the Toyos and just did not worry about them this summer.

I did not measure the hub to ground distance between the two tires but I would guess based on the sidewall bulge of the Michelins vs the more upright M144s that some ride height was gained. I do not have the dimensional info at hand of the two tires but if they are the same diameter before mounting then the Toyos should be taller when inflated. You would have to compare the dimensions of the tires you are replacing vs the Toyos to see what to expect.

There is some comfort in knowing that one of the design applications for the M144s is for urban bus travel and the sidewall is very durably made for the expected sidewall curb scrubbing issue. Any fail I have had in my RV tires so far has been an inner dual sidewall zipper fails (2 of these on my 89 Contessa which were not underinflation related). This is my second set of Toyo RV tires and I have not had any issues or fails with any of them.

 If my prime concern was ride softness, I would pay for the Michelins, if it is price and or the need for a more precise feel at the wheel then I would have no reservations buying the Toyos. Regarding dates, do not accept tires that are older, maybe 8 months old would be the max in my mind. The rubber ages whether it is on your vehicle or not and 7 years max from the tire date you should consider the limit. It takes some time to import from Germany and Japan and get through the warehouse system. Hope this helps.

Later Ed
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KC Snellgrove

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2015, 08:03:09 PM »
Ok here is the load down as I know it regarding RV tires.  I have decided to go to Henderson’s Line Up shop for the tires, alignment and anything else my “Olivia Jean” rig needs perhaps Saft T-Plus?

Les Schwab:                      FMCA DISCOUNTED PRICE

 Michelin    295/80R-22.5/16 ENERGY XZA2    $ 872.24    $ 666.50 cost savings $205.74 EACH

Toyo’s    295/80r-22.5/16m-1444           $ 475.13

**Add: Plus wheel spine balance $30.00, metal vale stem rebuild $ 4.25.

Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2015, 10:15:45 PM »
We're at Henderson's currently, KC. 

Given the totality of the input here on the Forum, the fact that the Toyos seem to sit a tad higher giving us at least a little more clearance (especially evident that it's needed after pulling out of our driveway Tuesday and leaving a new groove in it 😤 ), they turned out to be a mix of date codes some as recent as August, they are a new version meant for motorhome's and not trucks, and were nearly $1500 cheaper than Michelins (at least 18+ months old), I ultimately chose Toyos.  Henderson's don't sell those and didn't like their wear history, but admitted their experience wasn't with the more recent M144 Toyos like we got, but rather the older truck Toyo model.

I did register for the Michelin Advantage program before we left, because until we got to Bob Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City, I still wasn't sure which brand I'd go with.  Les Scwab did haul in some Michelins just in case, but they weren't needed.  Henderson's tried but couldn't find the Michelins without shipping in from the East Coast, and they didn't think I wanted that cost.  Schwab already had some in their warehouse or somewhere.  I can say the Toyos ride about the same as the Goodyears, maybe a smidge stiffer, and handle a bit better, as Ed has mentioned here.  I can see they bulge less at the bottom.  The Toyos were $3324, but that's with newer style valve extender kits.

While parked afterward overnight in Schwab's lot, a gully washer pooled water on the roof and it found its way in via the solar cable hole.  We came home at night to a lake on the galley floor, adjacent rugs, dinette, and rain out of the lights and AC ceiling ports mid-coach.  Hard to see and work to find the darned leak source on the roof in the dark and rain, but I temporarily plugged what I could see with 30 year old Permatex stuff I had in the old Pace arrow.  Thought I had Lexel but didn't, so the next day I found Lexel at True Value a couple blocks away and properly plugged the friggin hole, that when I could see it in daylight was the diameter of a pencil hidden by the wires.  Can't figure how a relatively new coach has a roof low spot up front between the front AC and curbside.  But the "lake" used the solar wire port as a tub drain!  Gad, what a mess.  Took 4 hours to sop up and remove light and AC ceiling fittings to try getting ceiling panels dry... an ongoing effort yet.

We are spending arm and leg here for testing, weighing, and upgrading the chassis for a more pleasurable and less stressful ride and improved handling, engine service (specified CAT filters thanx Dave A.), chassis lube, Koni shocks, motion control units for the airbags, K&N air filter (I know, that's a controversial move, but they don't use the oil bath technique they used to and stock filter isn't a cartridge type and is hard to come by apparently), new surpentine belt, Safe-T-Plus stabilizer, and steering adjustment to compensate for a little wear.  The air system was leaking pretty good after leaving home, and wasn't lifting the rear adequately to ride height every time nor was the back responding to the Raise function, so they are still trying to track that down, but seem to think its associated with the brake side.  The secondary tank (orange needle) dropped a good piece in only a couple hours, with the green close behind.

Noted our toad's front tire's wearing inside and scrubbing noises bad since towing this trip;  they are checking its alignment here later today so we'll have it and can drive it around sightseeing this weekend while coach is here, and not ruin tire's more... 'nother couple hundred $.  One darned thing after nuther, ain't it? 

Even this time of year Henderson's is busy.  One thing I didn't anticipate:  their service manager is a man of all trades, thus there is an incessant flow of technicians and office help streaming in and out the area behind his desk, not to mention customers, and his phone gets little rest.  This results in kind of a haphazard interaction where you try to discuss your issues and service history, etc., constantly interrupted.  He's good at what he does or he wouldn't be there, but they almost need two of him.  It can get a little frustrating trying to explain something to the point you believe he fully understands.  Fortunately we got who arguably seems to be one of their best technicians, Eric, and on our test drive and afterward it was easy to exchange information with him.

I must say though, this family operated business is pretty thorough and efficient.  We've enjoyed talking at leisure with Robert and Barbara Henderson in their nice customer lounge, and listened to one side as they threw a birthday party lunch for an employee, and a weekly company meeting, a great insight into the nature of this enterprise, it's history, inspiration and longevity, and why it's successful.  We were kindly invited to participate in the provided lunch and cake. 

You don't get something for nothing, KC, but at least it's definitely a pretty good something here.

-Joel

« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 11:04:33 PM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
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Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2015, 09:17:51 PM »
Well, been here nearly a week, and Henderson's got a lot done until running into the air leak problem Friday.  Red needle still goes to 0 overnight, with the green settling in around 50 psi., otherwise we'd have been to Diamond/ Crater Lake by now.  They've repaired several likely culprits, but red tank ain't holding, and they don't think the back end is airing up quite as well as it should.

If they haven't isolated the problem today, we will be on our way and let the techs at BCS see what they can find next week in Bend.

Gotta love air leaks 😂 .

Joel
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Dean Johnson

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2015, 08:28:18 PM »
WOW! What a lot of information on RV tires! I was just just checking my tires the other day and covering them and discovered this on the front right tire, in two different places.

These are BF Goodrich and the date code I found was 2310, I think they are all about the same age so they would be about 5 years old. This is the only tire that shows anything like this. I probably already know the answer to this but I don't know how serious this is, I'm assuming this tire should be replaced? and given the age, should they all be replaced at the same time?

Anticipating that, I got a quote from a Les Schwab here in Renton for $3491 for 6 of the Toyo M-144, mounted and balanced. I have a friend from Spokane that got these tires on his Tiffin and loves them so I'm thinking about the Toyos as well.

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LaMonte Monnell

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2015, 12:33:49 AM »
I had Goodyear's on my 2001 Contessa when I bought it 4 years ago but they were 10 years old. So the first stop was a tire shop. Toyo's were suggested over Michelins by them for a better ride.

They have been very good tires for the ride and I have no complaints at all. No wear that is noticeable to my eyes anyway.
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Joel Ashley

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2015, 06:54:38 AM »
I know this topic is controversial, but after some research, here's my take. 

Both Bob Dickman's Les Schwab and Henderson's, as well as the Les Schwab in Grant's Pass, told me essentially the same thing;  most of the worrying by motorhome owners over tire manufacture dates is unwarranted.  One even referred to the concern as a myth.  What we should be more serious about is the "date put in service".  Up until then the tire's are unpressurized, laying flat or on racks at the mfr., ship container and truck trailer, warehouse, and dealer, unexposed to weather or sunlight, and unstressed by vehicle axle loading.  To most, they wouldn't bat an eye at a warehoused tire up to two years old.  And I have to say I have respect for the managers that gave me that opinion;  they were experienced and convincing.

Two of the Toyos I just got are a year old and four are from this August.  I was at first concerned about the difference but not now.  And rather than run out for new tires at 6 years from date code, I'll heed the notion of annual dealer inspections starting the 5th year after installation (NOT 5 years after mfr.), and start thinking replacement in the 9th year, assuming wear isn't an issue before then.  That's not to say I won't regularly inspect the tires as always myself of course, or have a pro look at them before the 5th year if I have a particular reason to.

I just think that automatically putting money into new tires at the 5th year after a mfr. date or installation, regardless of condition, is unfounded;  and that 5 year auto-replace thing is a notion I've heard put forth more than once of late.  Below find a couple of links for reference.

http://www.michelintruck.com/assets/pdf/bulletins/TB_Service_Life_RV_Tires.pdf

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/article/312312/final-words-on-tire-aging

Dean, that looks like curb or road hazard damage.  I'd check the warranty on your Goodrich's and have one of their dealers inspect all your tires.  Given that outcome, then consider a trip to Les Schwab for further opinion.

Joel




« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 07:11:38 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
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Edward Buker

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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2015, 03:46:22 PM »
Dean,

I think you need to see a tire expert in a reputable truck tire shop.

From the photos it looks like the sidewall material is failing and coming apart. It does not look like sidewall scrub damage to me, but anything is possible. I would be very concerned given the steel cables rely on the sidewall to maintain a barrier for moisture and to encase them. If you had a catastrophic front tire fail, it is life threatening due to the likelihood of loss of control.  If those were front tires I would not drive very fast or far before having them pulled and fully checked.

No matter what anyone tells you about these tires it is an opinion, even at a tire dealer. I personally do not think it is worth the worry and risk while driving to not just have them replaced.

Later Ed
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Re: It's time for new tires... before the trip South for Winter
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2015, 04:13:20 PM »
Regarding the Toyo and Hankook tires.

When I bought our 2000 PT it still had the original Toyo tires that were 10 yo and replaced them with Hankook tires that served us well until we bought the Marquis.  I liked them a lot but it did take a couple of thousand mile before the were perfect.  For some reason there was a bit of tire squirm at first that eventually went away.  No idea why.

Our Marquis came with 12RX22.5 Toyo that are now 5 yo.  The stiffer sidewalls do make the ride a bit rougher on bad roads but not something that I find objectionable....just noticeable.  I believe that the stiffer sidewall construction is more robust and give better protection against road hazards.  When time comes to replace the tires I will look to Toyo again but the 12R tires are not the most popular and harder to find.  The so called replacement is a 295R80 but is a bit shorter and have a slightly lower load rating neither of which is desirable.

My plan is to replace the front tires in the next year or so than buy a pair each year for the front and move the year old front to the drive axle and tag.
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