Author Topic: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality  (Read 16115 times)

Robert McCormack

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2016, 01:15:25 AM »
I guess what I'm unable to get across is, as it is now it is unusable.   The ride is so harsh it "broke" the suspension member, that is beyond a miserable ride, it's scary.   It could be as simple as one bag that for some reason is under pressured thereby allowing one side to bottom out or some other issue.   It's a situation that cannot be ignored. 

I'll find out one way or another. 
96 Patriot

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2016, 04:26:35 AM »
Robert,
If the bags air up to the spec'ed height (~9.5 -10.25") they would seem to be OK. However, with 8 bags, you might have one that is not fully inflated but appears to be due to the bag on the other side of the axle.
Steve
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 05:45:03 AM by Steve Huber Co-Admin »
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
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Robert McCormack

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 08:03:25 PM »
I promised an update once the root of the problem had been discovered.   The answer lay with both the ride height setting and the shock mounting location of the early 4 bag system.

 First for those not familiar with how an air suspension works a quick review.   The air bags are the springs.  Their "rate",  the  stiffness of the spring, is controlled by how much air pressure is maintained in the bag.  The more pressure,  the higher the "spring" rate.

 Ride height is also controlled by how much pressure is held in the bag,  with more pressure the more the bag extends and raises the ride height.   So ride height and the "spring" rate of the bag is directly related to the amount of pressure in the bag. And the amount of weight of the coach being supported by the suspension will determine how much pressure is needed to achieve the desired ride height, more weight more pressure. 

  However the "compression" rate for air in the bag is not "linear" but progressive.  The amount of force to compress the air in the bag goes up in an exponential manner, meaning that each additional inch of compression will require a higher force than the previous until the air in effect becomes solid.  A crude example would be while 100 lbs of force might compress the bag 1  inch,  200 lbs of force would only compress the bag 1 3/4 inch, not 2 inches.  And each additional 100 lbs compressing smaller and smaller movements.
 
The Damage :

  The amount of force that I was encountering actually tore the vertical part of the "I" beam to which the front axle bolts.  The crack was at the location where the "I" beam is welded to the "U" channel that runs from side to side with the air bags at each end.   In short the bags were in essence going "solid", as if there was no suspension,  allowing the upward force on the axle to try and rip the "I" beam off the "U" channel.

Bag Air Pressure Issue:

  The issue to be determined was if the bags were completely compressed to the point the "inner movement stop" was hitting the upper bag mounting plate OR if the "spring" rate of the bag had gone up so high that it was in effect "solid", not able to compress the air any further.

  In this case when I first got the coach it needed to have the ride height and level checked and correctly set.  I search the web and this forum for any figures and the best I could find was setting the bags at 10 3/4 to 11 inches at ride height which was done prior to actually using the coach. 

  After the recent trip and the discovery of the problem I took the coach to Leale's RV in San Jose, CA at the the advice of the folks at Henderson's, from whom I had purchased the Koni shocks recommended for the 1996 4 bag suspension as found on the Beaver and Safari coaches of the mid 90's. 

  Only after several conversations with the folks at Leale's and the engineer at Henderson's did we discover that in fact the bag height was too high.  Fortunately there was a long term employee at Henderson's who remembered the correct height was 10 inches.  Once the bag heights were set correctly the ride improved dramatically.  The correct bag height was especially important in light of the fact that my coach runs well under the rated weight capacity at both ends thereby needing less pressure to achieve the desired ride height and ride rate.  In essence the air in the bags were going "solid" and transferring the forces directly to the suspension structure instead of "absorbing" the movement of the axle.  The "springs" were way too stiff.

As to Shocks

  Unfortunately the original design of the bag system was deficient in using just a pair of shocks mounted to the axle rather than as on the later systems putting a shock at each air bag location.  The amount of the "unsprung" weight of the axle, "I" beams and "U" channels, along with the leverage due to their location is too great for a pair of shocks with the size pistons used.   

 One of the advantages to being in the racing business is our access to shock engineers.  I had one of the engineers from the Heavy Duty Division at Koni check out the suspension.  He confirmed there was inadequate shock for the amount of forces needed to be controlled, the size of the internal pistons in the shocks being too small.  In the absence of the ability to place a shock at each bag location a much more "robust" size shock is needed to correctly control the forces.  In his estimation the common complaint of excessive "porpoising" in class A coaches has a lot to do with with chronically under shocked designs. 

  We are in the process of doing a rough calculation of the "unsprung" weight of the suspension and then will configure a shock similar to those used on the big off road race support trucks used in the long distance desert races.  These will be a  re-buildable and adjustable twin tube design, a one time purchase good for life .

I'll follow up once we have completed this upgrade.



 
96 Patriot
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Joel Ashley

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 09:42:47 PM »
Thanks for the update, Robert, and glad you're finally resolving the problem.

Henderson's is indeed one of the, if not THE, best resources for chassis issues.  I don't know where you got the specs of 10 3/4 to 11 inches of Ride Height... hopefully not on this forum.  Most coach specs I've seen were tucked snugly around the 10 inch parameter, as Steve mentions.

This may also go to why Monaco electrically overrode the raise/lower feature of HWH air ride systems.  Rather than have people neglectfully driving around at highway speeds raised or lowered far from Travel Mode, Monaco set the system to automatically return to there once your finger was off the button.  Full Raise, for example, may get me over some high object or help get my hitch over a driveway entry feature, and full Lower under a limb, but those settings out on the road with potholes, speed bumps, etc., would play havoc with no effective suspension in play.

-Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

William Ervin

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2016, 05:26:18 AM »
Very interested in what you come up with Robert, I would love to slow down the porpoising in my 96 Pat.

Keep us in the loop on whats going on


Thanks
Bill

Joel Weiss

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2016, 04:24:25 PM »
I would love to slow down the porpoising in my 96 Pat.


We had Henderson install its SafeSteer restrictors on our PT ~5 years ago and were very pleased with the reduction of porpoising they brought about.


Joel Ashley

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Re: Others experiance with mid 90's Patriot Magnum ride quality
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2016, 11:31:52 PM »
I know there are some that question if there is any real benefit from those little valves, and granted we had more done at Henderson's than just having those installed last fall;  but there was a noticeable reduction in the "porpoising" and associated side-to-side roll afterward on our coach too, Joel.  I'm sure they're making good profit on those "Motion Control Units" of their own in-house Steer Safe brand - there doesn't seem to be much to them.  The price varies with valve size needed - ours were about $180 a pair, one valve for each of 8 bags, plus a couple man-hours labor, for around $1k total. 

But if you invent something and it is simple and it actually works and satisfies customers, you deserve compensation.  If you ever have the good fortune to have a personal conversation with Robert Henderson, you understand and respect his chassis engineering expertise.  Robert's one of those few men I've known (my father, my brother-in-law that was an GM Regional service rep, a somewhat ornery old-boy service tech at the Kearney, NB, Ford dealership, and - while growing up on the farm - a couple neighbors of the Ott family) that must've came into this world with that singularly elusive mechanic's gene on their chromosomes, possessing an innate understanding the rest of us can only graciously envy and dream of having.

Whether it came from the new Koni FSD shocks or something else like the seemingly innocuous valves, or a combination of chassis changes/adjustments, the overall result on our Monterey was worth it.  I thought the existing HWH ride control system was supposed to be handling everything by micro-managing bag air flow at least on curves if not bumps.  Yet even though we haven't put too many miles down since last fall to thoroughly test things, there was in those miles a discernably improved muting of rock and roll. 

Hmmm... I guess Elvis has left the Beaver.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat