Author Topic: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?  (Read 9310 times)

Bruce Sieloff

  • Guest
Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« on: June 05, 2016, 05:13:41 PM »
Our Echo charger has just blown it's second 20A fuse between the Echo and the house batteries in two days. We are in a park with marginal power (112-123V) and haven't done any unusual activity (meaning we have abused the batteries in our normal manner). The House Batteries are 5/2012 vintage and I have two batteries where the center cells are "in the white" (going bad) when using the hydrometer. I top off the water weekly. They have been fully exercised in the last year we have been fulltiming, and are Interstate 6V 105min@75ahr golf cart batteries. We stay almost exclusively plugged in to shore power when we park, my sweetie doesn't boondock. Searching the forum I ran across this post from Fred Brooks RE:Echo fuses on another post, " The fuse holders are yellow and can be traced by following the wires from the echo charger, The red wire with the yellow stripe is the charge line for the chassis battery and the solid red wire is for the house batteries. The fuses are 15amp agc (old glass style). It is not uncommon for these to "blow"if batteries are low or reaching the end of there life cycle. .... Fred".
So do I need new batteries and if not what can cause the Echo to blow fuses just out of the blue? ???

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 05:25:47 PM »
Bruce,

The current flow blows these fuses meaning it is your chassis starting batteries that is the load and pulling the current. The type of fuse is usually a winding type around a ceramic piece meaning they are slow blow. If you bought ones that are just straight wires they may also be part of the problem. If you disconnect the chassis batteries and use a voltmeter, see if one is lower voltage then the other, it could have a bad cell. Usually your chassis batteries are just held at a charged state by the echo charger and the current tends to be around 5 amps or less unless you are running some chassis wired accessory causing the extra load. You either have a bad chassis battery or and abnormally heavy load running off the chassis battery.

Later Ed

Steve Huber Co-Admin

  • Administrator Group
  • *
  • Posts: 3503
  • Thanked: 2689 times
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 06:59:07 PM »
Ed,
Unless I'm mistaken, the Echo charger charges the house batteries first and when they reach ~13.5V the chassis batteries start getting a charge. The fuse is between the Echo charger and the house batteries. Since the house batteries appear marginal I don't understand how/why the chassis batteries would be the cause of the fuse blowing.
What am I missing?
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Dick Simonis

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2016, 07:33:18 PM »
My Echo charger is a Magnum and the charger has a built in current limiting feature to prevent charging at over 20 amps.  I would have to read the manual again for more details but, if that feature fails than yes you will blow the 20 fuse.  This may or may not be true for other brands.

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2016, 09:21:10 PM »
Steve,

The house batteries have to be charging from the main charger. The echo charger is basically a current limiter (as Dick pointed out) and voltage monitor. When there is enough differential voltage it starts to conduct connecting the house bank to the chassis bank. It protects discharge and over charge but it really has no charging function for the house bank, it will not reverse conduct. The fuses are typically protected by the current limiting but in order to blow a fuse there has to be 20 amps going to the chassis bank. Could be the echo charger is failing but the typical symptom of that is a blinking light or no light and it is dead.

Later Ed

Steve Huber Co-Admin

  • Administrator Group
  • *
  • Posts: 3503
  • Thanked: 2689 times
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 12:02:48 AM »
Bruce, Ed,
Pulled up the manual. Unit has 2 20a fuses; one to house and one to chassis batteries as you stated. Still not clear to me why you are blowing the house line fuse and not the chassis line fuse if Ed is correct and the chassis batteries are the culprit.
Please let us know what you find.
Thx, Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 12:19:19 AM »
Steve,

The fused lead from the house side has to draw the sum of currents, that is current output fed to the chassis battery bank plus the current converted to heat by the circuitry. There are some heat sinks involved and what looks like 3 pin regulators. If it consumed 12 watts for the circuitry then the input fuse would always see one amp more then the output side fuse. Not sure what is actually going on but the fuse does not blow immediately so the circuitry is not a hard short, so I am thinking the chassis set must be pulling all the current they can and over time the fuse gives up.  We have not heard the status of the lights on the charger or if there is any way to know the actual current measurements for the input and output as well as the voltage...that would help.

Later Ed

Fred Brooks

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1617
  • Thanked: 749 times
  • RVIA Certified Luxury Technician 49 years, Retired
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 12:51:51 PM »
    Hi Bruce,
  The Echo charger gets its power from the house batteries and then charges the "chassis batteries" thru a "slow blow 20 amp AGC fuse". Here is how to trouble-shoot the issue. Remove the fuse from the yellow fuse holder that is connected to the red wire with the yellow stripe. Replace the 20amp slow-blow fuse in the red wire fuse holder. If it blows again the problem is the Echo charger. If it blows after reinstalling the fuse in the red wire with the yellow stripe I would have the chassis batteries load tested.
   Regards, Fred
Fred & Cindy Brooks
2000 Marquis, Jasper
C-12 Wild Cat (U of A)
2014 Honda CRV
Proverbs 3: 5 & 6

Bruce Sieloff

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 05:56:43 AM »
Thanks to all for the input. The first sign of trouble was that the Sirus head unit, recently installed at BCS and wired to not require the ignition key to be on ACC (hot wired), did not spring to life. Investigation revealed that the chassis batteries were at 8.5 volts and the fuse from the Echo was blown. Neither of the fuses were a slow blow type, but a standard BUSS fuse, solid metal. After replacing the fuse with a like BUSS 20A fuse we have had no problems. The chassis batteries recharged and there has been no further fuse action. Apparently the "always on" feature, drawing directly from the chassis batteries depleted the two batteries after about 6 hours of radio play, which could only happen if the fuse was blown and prevented recharging from shore power. Power has been very uneven at this park (reason enough to add the VC-50 voltage booster I have been considering) and I am guessing (this is supposition on my part) that the inverter chose to supplement the lack of power with the coach batteries and then when the power returned it kicked on with a vengeance and blew the fuse. The chassis batteries might simply be a separate issue. It's also possibility that the whole bank is "weak" and needs to be replaced. I'm going to replace the fuses with 20A Slow blow types and have the batteries load tested as Fred suggests as soon as I can find someone capable. Until then I'm just monitoring our power usage, crossing my fingers and keeping an eye on the Echo and my replacement fuse supply.
The following users thanked this post: Bill Borden

Gerald Farris

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2016, 01:59:16 PM »
Bruce,
The radio is probably not the reason your batteries were dead after the Echo Charger fuse failure. The ECM (engine control module) on your coach will kill the batteries in as little as 3 days, depending on battery condition, with everything inside the coach turned off.

Also, the inverter did not cause your Echo Charger fuse failure. Install the correct fuses, and if the fuse failures continue, troubleshoot the system using the instructions that Fred posted.

Gerald

Bruce Sieloff

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2016, 11:07:35 PM »
The Saga Continues...
Have just got around to testing the Echo charger per Freds suggestion. Apparently we are blowing fuses when we  start the engine. I disconnected the fuse between the Echo and starter (chassis) batteries and started the engine without blowing the fuse. After reconnecting the fuse and starting the engine we blow the fuse. Starter batteries read 12.49V with the Echo disconnected, this was after a week on the charging system. The batteries are no Maintenance vs the Lead Acid of the house Trojans. The Trojans are set to bulk charge at 14.8 and float at 13.5. I suspect I need to have the chassis batteries load tested. The chassis batteries (new) had previously been discharged (once) down to 8.49 before I discovered the Echo issue. I can find no setting on the inverter that lets me identify the house and chassis batteries differently. The battery type is currently set on Lead Acid. Is there another setting that would split the difference better?

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2016, 04:02:07 AM »
Bruce,

Look at page 9 of the Echo Charger manual.

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/Auxiliary-Battery-Charger/Echo-charge-OwnerGuide(445-0204-01-01).pdf

Between .75 and 1.25V battery voltage difference the output current is clamped at 15 amps maximum. For all other voltage differences the current limiting is set to a value less than 15 amps. That means that if the circuit is working properly with good connections to ground and the two battery banks you should not blow fuses.

This circuit is not perfect and does require slow blow 20 amp fuses meaning it can momentarily conduct more current until the clamping circuit brings the current limiting down to where it should be. Slow Blow fuses like these, they usually will have a ceramic core that the fuse is wound around but there are other styles.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Crown-Bolt-20-Amp-Up-to-32-Volt-MDL-Fuse-71188/203538772?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-BASE-PLA-D25H-Hardware%7c&gclid=CPvwx5qFgc4CFQ1Zhgod_toPTA&gclsrc=aw.ds

If you are using slow blow fuses and they are blowing while cranking, then the Echo Charger current limiting circuit is not working as designed, and you need to replace it. If you are not using slow blow 20 amp fuses, then install some and see if it solves your problem. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

Bruce Sieloff

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2016, 06:58:45 PM »
Thanks, Ed, now I understand.
I have tried slow blow fuses from Home Depot, designed for a microwave, and they popped.
I may try replacing the fuse links with a more available compatible slow blow fuse before I pop for a new Echo charger.
Everything was working fine and then suddenly a problem so I guess a component replacement is the next logical progression.

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2016, 07:19:23 PM »
Bruce,

If it is any consolation I replaced an Echo Charger in the last year. They do not epoxy coat the boards like they should and mine had corrosion shorting some of the land patterns which is probably inevitable at some point if you clean the battery area with water and there are fumes available from charging. It would be better if these units were installed close by but not in the battery bay.

You could try a 30 amp AGC fast blow fuse set to see if the circuit is working at all. If you blow one of those or the unit quits working with that fuse then you know it was really allowing more than 2x the current limit it was supposed to and it is time for it to find its way to the great electronic dumpster in the sky....

If it is not current limiting then I would at least want to be sure that it is still charging, you should have 13V or so on the chassis set when the main charger is on with good fuses. The good thing is they are not overly expensive...

Later Ed

Bruce Sieloff

  • Guest
Re: Echo Charger blowing fuses, time for new house batteries?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2016, 09:07:43 PM »
Just wanted to close the book on this problem, I replaced the Echo Charger about two weeks ago and have had no recurrence of blown fuses or other misbehaving issues that I can trace back to the Echo. The unit did NOT come with slow blow fuses (although I now have a good supply) as far as I can tell but there have been no issues when the coach is started, connected or disconnected from shore power, etc. The Echo is a sealed unit, popriveted together and I may disembowel the old one later on in the interest of finding the issue. So in this case the problem was solved for about $102.
Thanks for all the help, this is the kind of thing that makes this forum so valuable.  :)
The following users thanked this post: Joel Ashley