Need to check Trace 2500 inverter for charging function.

[Bruce Sieloff]

How can I check the inverter to see if the charging portion of the inverter is working properly? We are running off new (last week) Trojan 105 batteries at this time. We are experiencing a power on/off situation with a 30amp hookup. Started about 2AM out of the blue. The Trace 2500 inverter seems to be working, it is keeping the fridge cold and the 110 outlets powered up but we cannot charge or stay connected to shore power. Power has been low in the park, in the 106v to 108v range and runs to the coach through the Progressive 50 Surge protector. I have moved the cord to a different pedestal and the problem reoccurs. We stay connected and power is fine and then the power goes off and then on again anywhere from several minutes to 30 seconds later. I have disconnected from shore power to save the inverter from any potential damage. I am concerned that the inverter may have issues with the charging side leading to a replacement being necessary. It is 13 years old and has worked faultlessly until now so I'm not sure what the issue might be. DW is decidedly unhappy.

[David T. Richelderfer]

Does everything work when on generator power... meaning inverting, charging, onboard 110v and 12v equipment?

Do the symptoms in these threads look similar?

http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,5273.msg40050.html#msg40050

http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,5486.msg40942.html#msg40942

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Bruce,
In addition to David's advice, IMHO I'd be concerned about using the shore power if you only have 108v, especially a 30amp hookup. Your coach can put a heavy load on a 30a connection, even at 110-115v. Be sure you have reduced the load to a minimum if on shore power.
Steve

[Wayne Tull]

If running on the Generator and your inverter/charger is working correctly and the batteries are good, but needing charging. You should have 120v (on both circuits), 12v + and see a high charge current until batteries near full charge.

[Bruce Sieloff]

Checked the batteries and everything is up, Chassis at 12.7 as measured at the terminals and the House batts are 6.33, charging at 7.22 when the power was working.
I ran the Genny and am only getting 111V on Leg One, 120v on Leg Two. My experience is that the genset produces 120V on both legs when things work right.
I don't have a 50amp terminal within reach but the park maintenance folks don't seem to think the 30A is out of spec.
After reading Davids post on his issues they are similar but not identical, I'm glad his problem is solved; I am concerned the solution may be the same, a new inverter.
We are currently full timing and of course this happens on a Friday; I don't have the option to get anything repaired and a replacement may be dicey before Monday. I don't think the batteries will last that long. I do have a charger I can put on the battery bank, and may do that if no other course offers itself.
When I put the new batteries in I changed the Bulk Charge setting on the inverter to 14.8 and the Float to 13.8 per Trojans recommendations; Equalization was changed to 16V per the same. These are the only settings I changed. Absorbtion time is default 02:00, which I assume is two hours.
The system acts as if something is overheating when plugged into shore power and then shuts off the power and then kicks it back on when it cools down.
Head scratching here.

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Bruce
If the AC is running it could load one leg of the geni output. Probably a PITA but IMHO, best solution may be to find a park with good 50A shore power. Regardless of what park guys say, 106-108 isn't good for either your inverter or your other elec equipment. I wouldn't hook up to it again in that park as I think you are risking your equipment. JMO..
Good Luck,
Steve

[Bruce Sieloff]

Thanks Steve,
Unfortunately all the ACs are in the off mode and only the fridge is on so I'm not sure what would be drawing the voltage down.
We will be moving to a nice park tomorrow with strong 50amp so I just need to get through the night. I have a battery charger available so I can bypass the charging portion of the inverter and charge the batteries directly until a new/repaired inverter is present. I assume I just connect to the primary battery bank cables.
The generator producing only 111v is worrisome, if the genset power runs through the inverter then I would suspect whatever monitors and passes the power on to the coach is an issue, otherwise I have two separate problems and I don't really want to consider a bad genny controller in addition to the inverter problem.
One painful expense at a time please...

[Bruce Sieloff]

Just started the generator to microwave a cup of coffee and it ran for two minutes and then the entire coach lost power, just shut down, generator still running. So whatever my problem is, it is internal. have a call into BCS but don't expect any miracles, mostly to keep DW happy while I explore alternatives.
I find I can get a new Magnum MS 2812 with auto start gen and remote for $1782 + shipping if I need a replacement inverter at https://www.imarineusa.com. I'm going to study the manual to see if any magic fix appears...

[Gerald Farris]

Bruce,
From what I have read about your problem, it does not sound like an inverter issue. Have you checked the voltage input and output at the transfer switch with and without the generator running?

The issue of the generator at 111 volts on one leg is normal if the inverter is charging the house batteries at 100 to 125 amps. With a high amperage draw like that the voltage will drop significantly.

Gerald

[Bruce Sieloff]

Thanks Gerald, I will do that check.
I think I may have bought some breathing room.
I reset the Bulk Charge from 14.8V to 14.5V and have a stable system now. I have bumped it to 14.6 for the last half hour and it is holding steady.
So my lesson learned is that on 30A I probably should not exceed 14.5V bulk charge.
We started with a new battery pack and if I have been slowly exceeding the draw rate for the last week it may have taken this long to reach a state where the system could not supply the required power at 14.8V from this twinky park system.
I am curious though, how many AC amps are required to produce 1 volt DC?
I will check it tomorrow on 50A and see if it supports 14.8V Bulk, if not I will have to rethink my battery life or get a new inverter. I'm not against replacing the inverter, it is 13 years old, but I'd like to be sure that a new unit could support the Trojan recommended charge level before an unnecessary replacement.
In the meantime I'm going to drop it to 14.3 tonight to avoid the sharp jab in the ribs when someone notices the clock is blinking, just to be safe of course...

[Gerald Farris]

Bruce,
You seem to be a little confused with electrical terms here. Volts is an electrical term that translates in layman terms to pressure. In other words, voltage is the pressure that pushes the electrons through the wire. Amps is the electrical term for quantity, and ohms is the term for resistance.

In a perfect world, 1 amp at 120 volts can produce 10 amps at 12 volts, but when you take into consideration the efficiency of your inverter in charging mode and resistance in the wiring, you probably get about 7.5 amps at 12 volts for every amp at 120 volts. As your charging voltage goes up your charging amperage for every amp at 120 volts goes down, just as the amperage at 12 volts goes down as your shore power goes down below 120 volts. This may be more than you are interested in, but as you see every thing in your charging system is related to something else.

Gerald   

[Bruce Sieloff]

Gerald,
I will be the first to admit to being electrically challenged, I understand the basics in terms of water, with flows and restrictions. But conversions between AC and DC border on black box magic for me, I read it but don't really understand it. Unfortunately I am forced to communicate in a language I don't fully understand. I do know pragmatic logic though, and if a given input yields a desired result I'm following that lead until I get diminishing returns. In this case it's "run 'er til she blows", literally. I'm trying to understand how to maintain the capacity of my shiny new battery bank within the limits of my system, including the marginal inputs of crappy power. Good explanation of electrical theory, if I make an error in understanding I simply beg forgiveness and appreciate a better education from those who know more. Just don't expect me to understand it easily 'cause I don't work that way.

[Edward Buker]

Bruce,

I would not change an inverter out unless I knew for sure it was not doing its job. When you are current and voltage limited AC wise in a park, it is very hard to tell what is at fault because the AC amps and volts needed to run the inverter charger may not be adequate for proper operation, and it will be a dynamic situation as things in the park change load wise and voltage wise on the park grid. If you run into that situation all those Trojan guidelines can be lowered for float and bulk as you have done. I would not go through equalize (an infrequent procedure) without a good 50amp AC source.

See how things perform at a 50amp service.

Later Ed

[Bruce Sieloff]

Ed,
That was exactly my experience, not the proper resources to identify the variable that was the cause of the issue. I am currently in a park with strong 50 amp power and the bulk charge was changed to 14.8 and the float to 13.8 and everything is stable and working fine. I just have to remember to adjust my power demands to the power available.
Glad I dodged the bullet this time, but I now know where I'm going to get my inverter replacement when it becomes necessary.
Now if I can just figure out why the Echo charger keeps blowing fuses...