Author Topic: 10KW Onan Shut Down  (Read 14883 times)

Edward Buker

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10KW Onan Shut Down
« on: April 15, 2011, 11:37:17 PM »
I have been wrestling with my Onan for several days. I have put a load on it that involving several air conditioners and it will run for about 30 to 40 minutes and then shut down giving a blinking 1 code. If I press the stop momentarily there is no second code. It shuts itself down cleanly without any hesitation. It does not act like any fuel issue and it will restart. I pulled the antifreeze filler tube and it was full and the expansion tank is at the proper level. I gently rinsed the radiator fins and blew through them with low pressure air. They were reasonably clean. There is plenty of air exiting out the bottom right side of the genset so the belts must be O.K. When it shut down I used an IR gun to get some measurements and the radiator was 188 to 217F across the finned area measured from the bottom, the oil pan was 206F, the engine block was 215F. Not sure if I'm really overheated.
Any ideas on this one?

Before I bought the coach the radiator fluid was changed and the fluid temp sensor was changed due to a failure causing a false overheating shut down. The generator hour meter is at 354 hours and that fail occurred at 306Hrs. Not sure if the same issue is happening....hope not, generator was pulled to change that sensor. I do not have any insight where the sensor is.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 05:23:22 AM by 14 »

Gerald Farris

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 05:08:45 AM »
Ed,
From the temperature readings that you posted, it sounds like your generator is running hotter than I would expect it to run. I think that it will shut down when the coolant temperature at the thermostat reaches about 235 degrees.

You said that the generator will restart after it shuts down, but you did not say how long it would run before it shuts down again. If it will run just a minute or two then shutdown again, you probably are overheating, however if it will run another 30 minutes, you are not overheating.

The overheat sensor that you referred to is probably located in the coolant outlet for the engine, and if so, you can replace it without pulling the generator. Most Onan repair shops pull the generator for any service that is more involved than a coolant or oil change. They are setup to do bench repairs and do not like to work in the confined area involved in servicing the unit without removal.

If you dissemble the unit enough, check the fan belt, and if it is questionable, it would be smart to replace it now even though Onan list it at 1000 hour change interval.

Gerald
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 11:47:00 PM by 235 »

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 10:06:28 PM »
Gerald,

Thanks for the info, your insight is always appreciated.

I got busy recording the temps to try and understand if I really was overheating and then restarted the genset but I did not put a load back on and continue to run it.  I was reluctant to do that given I did not really know if I was overheating. Your idea is a good one given the high temp shutdown circuit is working. (maybe too well) I will get to that on Sunday. It is unfortunate that we do not have some IR measurements on the forum, like the ones I took, on a known good genset to help with diagnostics. If I get this genset fixed I will try and post them.

I will order the parts manual and the workshop manual on Monday and then locate the parts on the genset. I did speak with a service rep from Onan/Cummins and he is sending me the sensor data of resistance vs temp for the over temp sensor. Problem is that there is no good way to check it without pulling it. It uses ground and a single wire to the circuit board. It is a variable resister that gets lower resistance with temp. We discussed that this appears to be the second time this unit has had this problem and if it were his he would consider changing the sensor and thermostat. Possibly the water pump but he indicated that they rarely fail.

Gerald, when you say replace the fan, I'm thinking the belt. I seem to remember there is some pulley assembly/belt kit change that has been upgraded and is that what you would change if I get that deep into it? If this genset does have to be pulled I would want to do whatever is prudent while it is out.

Thanks Ed

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 11:14:59 PM »
Gerald,

It was only 69 degrees outside today and I reran the test. The load was about 22 amps, 2600 watts like before. The genset ran 30 minutes and shut down, similar time to shutdown as before. I took some IR temp measurements for several minutes and then attempted to restart and see how long the Genset would run as you suggested. It ran about 30 seconds and crisply shut down again. The temps were within a couple of degrees of the last test, radiator face 210-216, oil pan 207, main block 215. Clearly it is sensing an overheat condition and providing a very repeatable temperature profile and result. I'm not sure if the shut down temp is exactly right but I'm convinced that is the cause.

If the thermostat was sticking or the water pump was an issue I think the radiator and block temperature would be further apart. The hot antifreeze has to be forced down to the radiator. The sensor shut down temp seems to be very repeatable. Given how cool it was here today and with the load being less than half the output capability I'm beginning to wonder if the fan air flow is really what it should be. I wonder if the belt is slipping but I do not hear any tell-tale squeal. Still a mystery.... any ideas?

Later Ed
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 01:15:35 AM by 910 »

Gerald Farris

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 12:07:40 AM »
Ed,
You will most probably not hear any noise from a slipping belt if it is really slipping, however the air flow will decrease. The belt will get loose enough as it wears and the surface that contacts the pulley will become slick enough to slip extensively without any noise. So the tell-tell sign will be decreased air flow.

From the temperature readings that you posted, I would say that you are overheating, and since the radiator face is so close to the engine block temperatures, I would expect you to find a slipping fan belt. If the problem was a coolant leak or a stuck thermostat, the radiator would much cooler than the engine block.  

Gerald

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 01:19:56 AM »
Gerald,

It was a bad belt with plenty of slack in it. Hopefully we do not have several issues causing overheat. We will see when the belt comes in and we can get this all back together.

later Ed

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2011, 06:13:40 PM »
My 10KW HDCAA Genset is cured. I wanted to post this follow up with some reference info in case someone else has to diagnose an overheat issue. When the generator shut down it had what felt like decent air exhaust flow out the bottom fan outlet and no abnormal noise from a slipping belt. Generator was running fine then just a quick shut down and a blinking one code at 350 hours of use. The genset had been pulled before I bought the coach and the temp sensor had been changed for the same shut down issue. I spoke with Onan tech support and got the sensor data and then from the parts department learned how many sensors, belts, thermostats, and water pumps have been sold for this genset. This is a good way to narrow down the possibilities. It turns out thet they sell a lot of sensors, next comes belts, then a handful of thermostats (5) and just two water pumps over the last 3 years. So belts or sensors are what we are likely to have to deal with.

The problem is that due to the cabinet design we have no access to the sensor or the belt area without a major hassle of pulling the cabinet top, front, and end covers. Gerald warned me that it is not a lot of fun given the access issues and he is absolutely right. Getting the cover bolts on and off is the problem. Pulling the fan assembly and changing the belt is relatively easy. I found that using a mini 10 inch woodworking bar plamp between the end of the slotted alternator bracket and the socket on the adjustment bolt was an easy way to move the alternator to adjust the belt tension before tightening. There was a lot of belt debris on the fan and pullies that needed to be cleaned out.

What was learned is that my belt was 1/8 inch narrower than a new belt due to wear slippage and had stretched to have very little tension, yet there was no sign that this was going on until an overheat shut down. The concern is that the generator itself is cooled by the fan air flow and that was running about 40 degrees hotter (generator housing temp) with the old belt at only 30% load and an ambient of 70 degrees. I'm not sure what the winding temp was but it must be much hotter. The engine over temp shut down will protect the engine from self destructing but this belt may slip for a long time without reaching the engine shut down limit and I'm not sure what temp the generator windings would reach under load. Obviously good cooling airflow would make all the components last longer and knowing if you have a slipping belt and getting it changed as a maintenance item when needed, before being shut down in use on the road, has its advantages. One side note...Onan/Cummins will not be able to provide the right belt without knowing your pulley width. The serial number vs belt PN/pulley type info they have is incorrect. For reference the over temp shut down system limit (blinking one fail) is set at 239degrees for 10 seconds which corresponds to some sensor value that is less than 40 ohms.

I have two recommendations; if your belt is 4 years old or older (Onan maintenance schedule would have you change it at 5 years) get an IR gun ($30-$50) and take some measurements on the radiator face under the left side of the genset to get a reference and see where your temps are running. The second is at some point if have the covers off you might want to remove the lead from the temp sensor, extend it with a wire loop to a point where a spade lug could be uncoupled by the access door so you can measure the resistance to ground without 3 hours of disassembly.

With the temp numbers I have posted you should have the information needed to diagnose the condition of your fan belt/cooling system and watch it as your belt ages. With the slipping belt the radiator temp kept climbing. With the new belt the temp stabilized in about 20 minutes and remained stable beyond that point. (see values on chart) The radiator measurements were taken from the bottom with the genset running and all others were taken through the access door right after shut down. The generator should not be run without all the covers on due to the fact that the cooling relies on a sealed cabinet air path. Included are some sensor vs temp measurements that will help determine if that is your problem area. Thanks again to Gerald, if he had not gone there first, I'm not sure I would have tackled this job. Hope this helps.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:27:15 PM by 910 »

George Harwell

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 01:36:35 PM »

Thanks ED for posting your story. The road is much easier to navigate when someone gives good directions. While your situation was surely frustrating at times you can now sit back and relax knowing that you conquered the almost impossible. By the way, where is LILLIAN, Alabama? My coach is over 5 years old.  HAPPY EASTER!

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 04:03:06 PM »
George,

I have benefited greatly from the collective knowledge of the members on the forum and hope to return the favor as I learn something new. Many of us live so far from a knowledgable service center for these coaches that we end up doing more than we really want to ourselves. My back complains a lot but my spirit is good....

Lillian is very near the coast on Perdido Bay. I live 1/2 mile from Pensacola Florida, which is just over a bridge that spans the bay. That puts us on the lower right corner of Alabama as you view it on a map next to the Florida Panhandle. It is about a 15 minute drive to the Gulf Shores area and national seashore. We are Vermonters that relocated here 9 years ago in retirement. Happy Easter to you also.

later Ed



George Harwell

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 01:56:17 PM »

Good morning Ed, found Lillian on the map. Looks like you don't need a snow shovel anymore. May be spending the night nearby late Nov. as we winter in Titusville. Stopped at Gulf Shores last year. Back to your generator, was wondering what the hourmeter reads.

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 02:44:42 PM »
George,

Your right, I threw away my snow shovel when we left VT. Have not missed it at all.

There is a new campground at Gulf Shores that is one of the nicest I have seen for $40 a night. It has some waterfront. Lillian is small rural type town that suits us and our development caters to RVs and being here part time.

This coach saw light use with the prior owner and has just 355 hours on the genset. Belts materials age regardless of use and this belt was 9 years old. By the look of the belt, I think it has been slipping for quite some time without any obvious signs.

later Ed

Edward Buker

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Re: 10KW Onan Shut Down
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 01:43:12 AM »
I thought that I would pass along one more piece of data regarding generator cooling. This is to provide information as to what is normal for generator air flow. I picked up this anemometer for the fun of it living in hurricane country here. It was just $22 plus shipping, cheap enough.

http://www.amazon.com/Ambient-Weather-HP816A-Handheld-Temperature/dp/B003NG9QCG/ref=pd_sim_hg_4

 I set the unit on average wind speed. I then placed it in several spots against the radiator face from underneath to get some average readings. That inlet air moves at 7MPH fairly uniformly across the radiator face per this anemometer. You hold the anemometer in place until it stabilizes with an average reading.

I then moved my hand along under the outlet side which has concentrated air flow in several spots due to the outlet design on the fan schroud. Several inches in from the front right side you will feel one of those high flow regions. The outet air flow was measured at 29mph in that location.

Those are my numbers for this brand anemometer with a new belt and normal airflow. Just thought I would pass this along as another means to verify that your genset is not cooking. If you have, or get an anemometer to check your genset out, it would be best to have the data specific to your genset and anemometer to compare to. The numbers I provided should be close. Hope this helps.

later Ed
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 01:03:24 PM by 910 »