Author Topic: Biodiesel blend  (Read 18549 times)

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 03:31:31 PM »
George,
Thanks for the info. However, I wonder if the MB powered RV company provides a list of locations where one can obtain B5. Even B15 can also be tough to find. Loves targets B15 or less but the key word is targets, but no guarantees. IMHO the engine mfgrs need to better address the reality that Bio is here to stay and asking the consumer to limit the amount used is a cop-out.
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Dave Atherton

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 05:12:01 PM »
Steve and George, good morning I have printed out and sent Tim Bently to post for factual Data
Files that he is setting up for all members. What I have Caterpillar Bio Fuel and Caterpillar engines.
I have printed 14 pages off my Cat program. What I can say to all members that have Caterpillar
Engines, the sky is not falling and information is clear on this. I mentioned earlier Dave was not going 
to get into any debate on this subject but will provide engine Mfg. direction ( which is Caterpillar ).
and ( Cummins older ISC & ISB and ISL engines of which have Cummins software Insite ). Again
There is lots of information both pro and con for each to make up his or her own mind what is
best for there engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Bryan Schmidt

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 07:15:10 PM »
Has one investigated any possible effects of B20 (or whatever blend you have to use) and it's affect on the other diesel systems in our Beavers, namely our diesel generator fuel filter/engines, or the Hydro/Aqua-Hot systems fuel filter/burner orifice?   

If B20 is/could cause concern/issues with our Cat or Cummings main engine fuel filters, should we be concerned, to some extent, for our generator and Aqua-Hot systems also? 

The same question arises as to any diesel additives that we add to the main tank for the Cat/Cummings, since that additive also then feeds our coach's other diesel systems.
2005 Montrery 36' Ventura IV
Cat C9
Towing a Pathfinder
Navigated by 2 cats

Joel Ashley

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 08:37:32 PM »
Dave, I use Clear-Diesel before storage and Diesel Kleen on the road.  I'm a fan of Power Service products, of which your 911 I believe is one.  But neither of mine are anti-gel, etc.  Pacific Pride informs me that that is part of most diesel suppliers' fuel during cold seasons anyway. 

What I'm wondering is when a product like Diesel Kleen says it "removes water", where is it removed to?  Any idea how that works?  The company has been very customer-helpful in the past... I reckon I could ask them that question.

Not to hijack the previous poster's question, because certainly Aqua-Hot and Onan may have opinions regarding 20% Biodiesel. 

-Joel
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Dave Atherton

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 10:35:22 PM »
Joel, I will answer briefly main problem with Bio Fuel is in mid range engines and down.
The bigger engines produce enough heat to suspend to Bio fuel through the secondary fuel
filter, smaller hp engines do not produce enough heat and Bio Fuel hangs in the secondary fuel
filter. This is where the loss of power and fuel milage comes into play. You are using Power Service
products and the 911 is a anti-jell that keeps the fuel moving through secondary fuel and Power
Service also provides injector cleaner to run off and on in the fuel system. Basic the information
that I sent Tim from Caterpillar will reinforce that statement. With all the hype about Bio Fuel
from repair stand point nothing major has resulted with Caterpillar or Cummins.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 11:07:33 PM »
Part 2 Of The Bioblend Problem And Solution:

Just to step back for a moment and summarize where we left off... In my earlier posts we saw that the raw materials to be used as blend stock, bio ester vs petroleum based, the petroleum based diesel was far superior for low water content, as much as 15 times lower for saturated water. So with the soybean based esters there is more water, and what is problematic is its affinity to absorb more water. The problem is compounded in that the surfactants involved tend to emulsify the water and by their chemical nature cling to the surface of the minute water droplets and keep them dispersed.

Unlike petroleum based diesel fuel which tends to agglomerate the water into large droplets that end up at the bottom of the prefilter bowl, the blended fuels no longer have that property.

Some of the bioblend water will cling to the filter face, some will escape through the filter to the fuel rail, and as the filter media absorbs or holds some of the water there is no longer that surface available so you are continually diminishing the ability of the prefilter which may start at 70% efficiency for small water droplet removal, it is being constantly diminishes dictated by the water levels in the fuel.

So we can no longer control the water level in the fuel and we can no longer effectively filter it out. That is where most of the current fuel primary filter technology is today. You have excellent fuel filtration for particles today, George brought up Nanonet but this is secondary filter technology, mostly aimed at particle wear issues. Cat makes one of the finest fuel secondary filters on the market, best beta and particle capture rates all the way down to 2 microns. I am a big fan of this filter and Dave I am sure is also. We really do not have a secondary filter problem, they do the job very well today. The primary filter has the job of extracting the water, and removing large particles to protect the flow rates of the secondary filter. High capture rates of 30 or10 micron media is where the primary filter design has operated. It is really too bad that that Cat does not focus research on primary filtration design which for the most part is left up to the OEM vehicle designer to choose, like Beaver did.

The net of all this we need a filter that is specifically designed to extract the emulsified small droplets of surfactants combined with water that has enough capacity to handle the vastly increased water load in the fuel.

Some good info from Filtramax:

This is the most misunderstood area of diesel filtration. There are a variety of technologies of water removal filtration systems:

   
Polymer: Most “water filters” are polymer based water-blocks. Polymer is used in diapers. The polymer powder turns to a solid gel mass when water is introduced to the element. The filter is now into bypass offering no further protection. If you have a large amount of water, you will require cases of these elements. (waste of time and money)
   
Absorption: The second most common removal media is absorption elements. These elements are effective at capturing and storing water in the media – measured in pounds or gallons of water removal. The elements must be disposed of and replaced with new filter media as they reach their limit.
   
Coalescing: The best water removal technology is to coalesce the very fine water droplets (some as small as .2 µm) on the fibers of the media. The media is hydrophilic and holds on to the small droplets until these droplets begin to meet each other on the fibers to form larger droplets. The larger droplets then fall to the bottom of the filter housing and can be automatically or manually drained away. The media is long lasting – up to 4 years – if protected upstream from particulate.
   
Diesel Pest: Diesel fuel tanks can become contaminated with micro-organisms (bacteria, yeasts, fungi and algae) every time the tank is filled or ventilated.
    Micro-organisms can only survive, grow and multiply in the water phase of any medium. Water phases develop during storage and transport, particularly when damp air inside the tank condensates.
    Microbiological contamination can have very serious consequences, resulting in a loss of diesel quality. The by-products of micro-organic metabolism block filter elements, water separators and injection pumps. The material of the tank walls and pipes can also be severely damaged. Corrosion is further accelerated by water-soluble salts and hydrogen sulphide, a by-product of metabolism.
    Water concentration is the decisive factor for microorganism growth, and accordingly any strategy aimed at combating diesel pest must start by reducing the amount of water in the fuel. This can be achieved by implementing continuous fuel and oil treatment to prevent the water content from rising above 60 ppm.

Ed back... I noted in my mind that 60PPM water concentration is probably a pipe dream but what is clear is that the tanks more than ever should be kept full. Over the road truckers that keep pushing fuel through the system will not absorb into a tank what an RVer would. If you can store your RV without bioblend or a low level bioblend, B5 or less, that would be great. One exception may be the desert southwest, given the very low humidity.

So where we need to go is to install a coalescing filter. The process of removing water has gotten more complex and you need a more complex filter designed specifically to handle this problem. Dave has mentioned filters gelling up and plugging and my guess is that is water and surfactant consuming the available filter media.

The coalescing filter process is basically a filter within a filter that all the fuel must pass through. The first filter is designed to break the emulsion by striping the surfactants from the water droplet and letting it pass on to the inner filter. Now the water is in a tiny droplet form that wants to cling to the surface of the extensive fiber network of the second filter that is designed to form large enough water droplets to accumulate and drop into the base of the filter. The filter capacity is maintained because the filtering process is designed to shed the water....self renewing if you will.

The OEM manufacturers have been worried about warranty claims and are keenly aware of the problem. This is an example of a coalescing filter for a Duramax engine that now comes standard, other OEMs are on the same page.

http://www.catching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/7717_Rev_A_PFF50216_GM_Duramax_Diesel_Fuel-Filter.pdf

In that attachment you will notice that the water removal efficiency is rated at 99% efficiency and notes it is for all blends and types of diesel fuel. No other filter type makes any claim close to 99%. Parker Racor is the leading supplier of this technology at the moment but others are sure to follow. I will do a short segment next on where they are with making a coalescing primary filter available that is suitable for our RVs and what could be done now with today's technology.

As far as sending some additive through the system to strip what is there on a filter face, I am wary about sending what was not intended through the fuel rail. I wish the manufacturers like Cat and Cummins would do some real world testing and weigh in on these things with real measurements of what is happening to the fuel make up going out of the filter to the engine when you use one of these products. Data unlocks what is unknown and lets you understand how and if these products work without causing damage. I am not saying it is bad, I just do not know, but am wary...Hope this helps.

Later Ed
 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 01:45:06 AM by Edward Buker »

Phil N Barb Rodriguez

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2016, 11:15:18 PM »
Joel,

I have been using Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement for years as well. Both have +Cetane Boost, clean injectors and provide lube for fuel injector components. I also carry an 8 ounce bottle of FPPF Fuel Power additive that disperses water. Haven't had the occasion to use the FPPF for years but the stuff works well.

As for bio diesel or cold weather gel the PS Supplement is suppose to take care of that.

Mileage wise using the PS product we seem to get a bit better mileage. No one believes it but on our new to us Country Coach Magna we have gotten 8-8.3 mpg since we traded for it last year, and using the PS product. All of this is documented on the Silver Leaf as well as checking mileage manually filling up to the tank neck fill up to fit up. On both coaches I have found the Silver Leaf very accurate in terms of gallons used. As long as there is no fuel used by the furnace or Genset it is pretty much spot on on fill ups.

We got 9-9.5 on the PT we traded for the CC, using PS products.
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Phil N Barb Rodriguez

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2016, 01:20:27 AM »
I did tell you guys........

The additive I use is the Power Service  Diesel Kleen. You can get it a Pilot/Flying J or any truck stop. In our neck of the woods I get it at North Forty, formally Big R. When it is on sale it is about half the price as truck stops. It's $12.95 for 80 ounces, i think.

I usually fill up at a half tank and pour in 16 ounces of PS.

Has anyone had an issue with the Silver Leaf, 2000-2003 vintage, reporting wrong info?

As for the FPPT, that stuff totally disperses water. I assume it absorbs and flows through the system with fuel. I was pretty amazed at the results when a trucker told me about it.

Headed to BCS on the 9th for Danny to straighten out the AV mess that Innovative Coach Works in Junction City sold us.

I think I can still be a BAC member.......?

Keith Moffett

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2016, 01:58:46 AM »
Once a Beaver always a Beaver.
silverleaf is only as accurate at the sensors.
Come to BCS before we leave next week,
2007 Patriot Thunder
45' C-13
2006 Explorer Ltd.
DW is Carol
Safe travels and
May God bless!

Gerald Farris

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2016, 04:57:04 AM »
Phil,
Like Keith said, "Once a Beaver always a Beaver". Any BAC member can always be a BAC member as long as they maintain an FMCA membership, no exceptions.

Since there has not been a new Beaver built since 2009, several BAC members have traded their Beaver in on a new coach of another brand, and they have all maintained their BAC membership as far as I know. This even includes one of the BAC officers.

Gerald
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Bill Sprague

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 04:06:20 PM »
Phil, Keith and Gerald,

(Off topic)

It is true!  Even if you buy a relatively tiny gas powered motorhome the "Once a Beaver..." rule applies.  We've got rally bars that hang almost to our knees.  The last three were earned in the new "motorcabin", AKA " Ford squirrel".  At two rallies, we were co-rally masters.

All of our long time Beaver friends continue to be as warm and welcoming as ever.  They don't care what we drive! 

(Back to topic)

In 10 years and 122,800 miles, I never used any additive of any type in our Monterey.... except one.  Knowing I was going to not use the Beaver for a few damp Seattle area months, I got some "BioBor" from a marine supply.  I don't know if it did anything or not.   

Twice in the ten years I had to change fuel filters between normal, scheduled changes.   I was never able to figure out what was clogging the filters.   My guess is that additives would not have made a difference.

George Harwell

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 04:06:52 PM »
Thanks to all for responding with opinions I totally agree with. At least the filtration experts are engaged and working to provide us with better water extraction. That is a win, win for us.

Steve, I agree with you and feel sorry for the folks buying coaches limited to B5.

Edward Buker

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2016, 07:07:40 PM »
Part 3 Of The Bioblend Problem and Solution:

Doug, first let me address your comments. We are all different and we all bring our own skill sets to the table. My background is one of solving very complex problems in industry. I do not waste my time with opinions, there is data, pertinent article extraction, and discussions with leaders in the field regarding Biodiesel blend filtration problems and what we can expect. I use the data to make informed decisions and pass the references along.

My intent is to put the information out there and help BAC members understand the problem, and how they can best manage it. I had not seen any posting on effective filtration for Bioblended fuel that made sense, so I thought I would take it on.

The sky is not falling and bioblends are not a disaster, especially in low concentrations. In fact a 2% bioblend reduced metal wear rates by about 70% in a blind study over ULSD petroleum diesel. 2% bioblend has far superior wear rate reduction when compared to all the snake oil additives claiming to add lubricity, in fact it came in number 1. Power Service Diesel Kleen and Cetane Boost which seems to be a favorite came in 10th for wear reduction, hardly making any difference at all, while others made the fuel worse for wear properties. You only need a 2% bioblend to gain the lubricity enhancement, so if we can just keep the water and oxygen from damaging the fuel system, manage the blend level a bit, that would be perfect for now. If you live in the desert south west like Gerald and Steve Huber you probably will not have much of a problem with water absorption. If you live on the gulf or Pacific NW and store your coach for long periods then I would try and manage it.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-forums/64-maintenance-fluids/177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html

Precision metal parts like in our fuel systems have very little tolerance when it comes to water. Good reference here.

http://www.mycleandiesel.com/pages/ProblemWater.aspx

So my net of your comments is that you just want a certified mechanic to tell you what to do, so just read certified mechanics posts, it is just that simple for you.

If someone really has the solution regarding running and storing your coach with B20 that solves the water issue let us all know. If that solution is chemical additives, then how do they work, what is plugging the filter, and where does the plugged filter gunk and water go? If all the gunk and water you gathered out of the last 2000 gallons of fuel now gets sent through the fuel system so that you can unplug a filter rather then replace it, what are the damaging effects?

These are hard questions and I do not really expect that anyone really has the answers. I have looked at additive studies and beyond wear I have not seen anything regarding water handling. Without those answers, it is all blind faith, which is not in my make up.

I think everyone who is sharing knowledge and information in this post is doing their best to help. I applaud them all for all they share. In my opinion this is an excellent forum because of the varied knowledge base and participation. I'll move on and finish the filtration portion of this post....

The engineers at Parker Racor have been working on this issue for awhile as discussed. The best solution they have for us at present is one of enhanced capacity with their best Aqua Bloc filter media. It is not a coalescing filter but it buys you more miles without filter changes because it has more water capacity. It certainly would help if you have to run B20 a lot in a damp environment.

This link below has the info on the 700 series pump/filter head which accepts an R125 increased capacity filter which will absorb up to 3X more water. The 400 series manual pump version can also use this filter. If you upgrade your primary filter, I would go with one of these units and raise the position high enough to accommodate a higher capacity filter. If you can't do an R125 then an R90 version would probably be better then your current unit. These pump/head designs are excellently engineered units designed by Racor and eliminate all the earlier design issues of our older Wynn design. The electric pump version is double O ring sealed, and are replaceable continuous duty rated pumps. They do a nice cutaway view.

http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Racor_Fuel_Filtration_-_700-Series-Priming-Pump_-_7631.pdf

It is the best design in a unit that I have seen that can be easily purged of air on the road by anyone called on to service it. I am told by Racor that these units are the most popular heads/filter set that they make, that are not dedicated OEM, for makes like GM Duramax. These heads would be the first place that a coalescing filter designed would show up for that is not OEM specific.

If you choose one of these units it looks like there would be a coalescing filter migration path sometime in the future. The hold up has been whether or not owners would pay more for a better filter, so it is a business process decision at the moment. I was told a coalescing filter will happen, just not sure exactly when.

It seems that ramping up to B20 is happening even on the east coast now, the problems will surface, the solution can then be justified by demand.... It would be much better if industry and government worked in concert on this....wishful thinking on my part.

Warranty costs fears are driving the OEM markets, maybe Cat or Fleetgard will offer something up in a coalescing filter and head for over the road. For now manage the problem as best you can, minimizing bioblended fuel if you have a choice, be careful to keep a bioblended fuel tanks full, especially when storing the coach. Plan on preventatively changing your fuel filters on schedule, and carry a spare. Enjoy your travels and manage this just like many other things in our lives..... Hope this helps.

Later Ed

« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 03:43:23 AM by Edward Buker »
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GARY AND CONNIE HARMAN

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2016, 12:49:52 AM »
I feel fortunate to be able to access such and intelligent discussion and learn from others.   These discussions are the reason I continue to Value my BAC membership.  Thanks to everyone that takes the time to post  their observations and opinions on topics that are important to us .  Happy travels,  Gary  and Connie

Dave Atherton

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Re: Biodiesel blend
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2016, 01:43:39 AM »
Gentleman, before we start in on the subject and let just post our thought and move on.
Dave has sent information to Tim Bentley on this subject off Caterpillar Service information
System where Tim has created a file for factual information from Dave and Caterpillar only.
Untill Tim gets everything up and running Dave will post some of information Bio Fuel and
Caterpillar Engines.  First of all all Caterpillar Engine, 2006 and older ( all models ) can use
Biodiesel fuel and Biodiesel blends up to B20 and do nothing to engine. Caterpillar Engines
2007 and newer can use B20 Biodiesel fuel and BioDiesel blend with the exception of Cat
C-7 and Cat C-9 Biodiesel Fuel and Biodiesel fuel blend by using caterpillar diesel fuel system
Cleaner part number 343-6210 and Cat nozzle cleaner part number 304-7755 which the
Cat nozzle is needed to clean the ARD head. Can use Biodiesel fuel and Biodiesel blend to B15.
Cat recommends using SOS oil samples on all oil changes. Again the use of Cat primary
and secondary fuel filter is highly recommended for Caterpillar engines With Biodiesel fuel
and Biodiesel blends. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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