Author Topic: Water Tank Vent Shiponing  (Read 6089 times)

Dick Simonis

  • Guest
Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« on: December 07, 2016, 10:51:16 PM »
I have an occasional small but annoying issue with my water tank whereas sometimes the fill valve does not close and the tank overflows.  When that happens I lose about 25 gallons of water before it stops.  There may be an issue with the tank calibration but regardless I would like to stop the siphon by installing a vacuum braked, air gap, or some such.  When I had this problem with my PT it was relatively simple to install an air gap but on the Marquis not so much.  The problems seems to have some bearing on the level of the coach.

Part of the problem is actually finding the vent line.  I did locate a pex line coming down into the second bay near the curbside wall that runs towards the center and than follows one of the all thread braces down though the floor.  I think this is the vent line but I'm not clear how it gets from the water tank which is suspended amidships over to the curbside wall.  Is there a space between the coach floor and the sub floor?  I will be looking for someplace to install the vacuum breaker.

As anyone else had this issue and, if so, how did you correct it??  Also, any recommendation for an in-line vacuum breaker that would be suitable for use in a rather confined space.


Thanks.

Dick


Frank Bergamo

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 279
  • Thanked: 73 times
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 01:05:17 AM »
Dick, I believe the line you refer to is the overflow line. This has happened to me when I try to top off the fresh water tank. I still have not figured out if there is some kind of pressure relief valve or if it is connected to the sensor in the tank when it is almost full. I have tried to cut the water pressure down a bit when almost full as this seems to help keep the overflow condition from happening. Other than that, it is still a mystery why it happens. I will be curious to know if anybody else has had this happen and there remedy for it. Also, I have the same coach as you. Sorry I could not be of more help!! Frank B.
Frank & Paulette Bergamo
2019-       : 2007 Marquis Topaz IV  C-15 600 HP Allison 4000
2014-2019: 2002 Marquis Emerald C-12 505 HP Allison 4000
2004-2014: 1986 Executive Diplomat 3208 250 HP Allison MT-643
Grand Junction, CO.

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1678
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 02:18:43 AM »
On our coach when the tank gets full at 100 gallons capacity, it overflows until I shut off the water or until I close the Tank Fill valve.  Our coach apparently does not have an automatic stop when the tank gets full.  If our coach has an automatic stop, then it has not worked since we purchased the coach in August 2012.  When the tank overflows I close the Tank Fill valve and turn on the water pump and turn on the faucet in the water bay.  Within a minute or so the siphoning action through the overflow slows to a stop.  At that point I can turn the water on again for a short time to top off the tank.  The tank gauge will usually read very near full at this point.  But by the time we drive downhill and/or stop several times enroute to our next overnight parking spot the water tank rarely has more than 75 gallons, or 3/4 full.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Dick Simonis

  • Guest
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 07:08:33 PM »
David, that's the same problem I've been having but I'm surprised you don't have the auto shut off.

The problem with the siphoning is compounded by the use of a long plastic tank.  Once it starts the vacuum bows the tank sidewalls in and reduces the volume.  When the vacuum finally breaks the sidewall pop back and viola, significant water loss.  Even if you refill the tank back near full and start driving the water sloshing around can find it's way back through the vent and start the process all over again.

Correcting the issue would require, ideally, a vented loop or vacuum breaker located above the top of the tank level but I don't see anyway to make that happen so I'm stuck with breaking the vacuum as close to the tank top as possible which will minimize the water loss.  On my PT I created an air gap that worked perfectly and minimized water loss just a few gallons which was far better that the 40 gallon loss I started with.  Might be able to do that with the Marquis but it would be a bit messier.  I'm going to try a vacuum breaker first...parts ordered today.

As we said with our high vacuum equipment...vacuum sucks.

Mike Groves

  • Guest
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2016, 02:01:44 PM »
Dick and All,

I too have/had this problem and it seems to depend on the water pressure into the system during the fill operation.  Here's what I mean.

At Pacific Shores we have great water pressure.  I've installed a pressure check on the hose to make sure the pressure doesn't get too high and when I fill the tank with this pressure check inline and then turn off the fill valve IT DOES CLOSE.  However, my wife says the pressure is too low, so I have removed the pressure check and if I now try filling the tanks then I have the issue that Dick has described.  That is, one time I filled it, turned off the fill valve, but it didn't shut, so I had an overflow, then got it to shut, but once the overflow started it did siphon a lot of the tank before I figured out what was happening.

My process now is the following - after the tank reaches 100% during the fill I turn off the fill valve and have time to go outside and turn off the water before the overflow condition.  The fill valve closes under this no pressure condition.  I do this rather than disappoint my wife with the lower water pressure which also allows the fill valve to close.

I suppose the idea is to get the water pressure to where it allows the valve to close but is still high enough to make my wife happy.

Anyway, I suggest you see if your system will shut the valve off with a reduced pressure in the line (or no pressure by turning the water supply off then on again after you close the fill valve.  Works for me.

Mike

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1678
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2016, 02:45:57 PM »
The Fill Valve will open and close whenever I toggle the rocker switch on the water bay wall.  Our coach has no (operational) auto shut off that I know of.  If Leslie wants some water pressure in the coach at a faucet or shower while I am filling the water tank, then I simply close the Fill Valve and all the shore water pressure is directed into the coach plumbing.  When she doesn't need water anymore I simply open the Fill Valve and resume filling the water tank.  It doesn't make any difference what the shore water pressure is; I can open and close the Fill Valve by toggling the rocker switch.  Once the water tank is full all the water entering the tank simply exits through the tank overflow.  When I close the Fill Valve the built up pressure causing out-flexing of the tank walls will continue to push water out the overflow.  Once the tank walls have lost their out-flex, then the siphoning, I presume, will continue to draw water out the overflow, but at a slower rate.  Once the in-flexing of the tank walls overcomes the gravitational pressure causing the siphoning, then the siphoning will stop.  But at least in our case that siphoning action seems to persist until the tank becomes underfilled by 20 to 25 gallons.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 02:48:57 PM by David T. Richelderfer »
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Steve Huber Co-Admin

  • Administrator Group
  • *
  • Posts: 3509
  • Thanked: 2694 times
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2016, 03:09:54 PM »
David, Mike,
Why don't you fill your tank, shut off the incoming park water source, and use the coach's water pump to supply water at a constant and normally acceptable pressure? Other advantages to this approach is that you'll know (hear pump) if a leak occurs and you can easily shut off all water pressure when leaving the coach.
Steve
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:34:35 PM by Steve Huber Co-Admin »
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1678
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2016, 03:37:03 PM »
Steve - Generally that is exactly what I do.  But I think this discussion relates to when we fill the water tank before pulling up the anchor for a trip.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Joel Ashley

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2344
  • Thanked: 801 times
  • OSU Class of '73, Oregon Native. RVing 39 years
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2016, 11:13:11 PM »
I'm not sure I have much to contribute, because I haven't had the problem.  But will inject my 2 cents, which may not be worth even that much.

Our old Pace Arrow had a simple ~2 inch fill port with a ~1/4" plastic tube coming back from the tank top and mounted at the top of the fill port fitting that vented things.  When water came out that tube or backed up the fill port,you knew it was full.  You often had to wait a minute for water and air to stop blowing out that tube before plugging it and capping the fill port.  But simple it was.

There is no obvious vent tube end in my water bay, so I am presuming that rather than a separate vent on the tank, air escapes via the overflow valve until the tank is full, when water escapes there.  Now I don't know exactly where the pressure regulator is, but I assume it is behind the fill port fitting - many of you that have replaced such an animal certainly aren't as ignorant as I.  It may be where it only affects the "city water" connection pressure, on that side of the switch, rather than where it controls the tank fill rate as well.

Regardless, if the input pressure is higher than the overflow valve's rate capacity, pressure will build and the tank flex, resulting in some residual overflow of water after the faucet is turned off.  But the term "siphoning" here doesn't quite seem correct, as there is no lower pressure being created outside, as much as there is residual high pressure in the tank.  I guess it depends on how you look at it... lower outside ambient pressure "sucking" or higher tank air pressure pushing.  So for 25 gallons to be pushed out, it occurs to me that the overflow valve is unduly restricted, the tank walls are enormously too flexible, and a tremendous amount of air is trapped when the faucet turns off.  Or the same results occur because I am wrong and there is a secondary relief vent valve that's malfunctioning.  If the regulator behind the fill valve is faulty or non-existent, one could be allowing far more pressure from some sources (60+psi) than the venting system and tank wall flex can handle.

I can easily see my translucent tank since it's up front in the bay with the HydroHot.  When it fills to the top and overflows because I got distracted during the long fill and wasn't on top of things, I can see that when the overflow stops there is little air space at the tank top.  So nothing is really "siphoned" out, certainly not a quarter tank.  The water gushing out of the overflow seems at a rate little more than the fill hose end, and stops within a minute.  A lot of this I'd presume goes to just how flexible the tank is, and that may vary from coach to coach, I dunno.

If there was an auto-stop on the fill, the overflow valve would seem of little use except as an air vent.  On ours, the overfill valve would never stop if I let it and was that way when it was new, so I know we have no auto-stop on the fill.

The pex line Dick sees could conceivably be a roof AC drain, although ones I've seen are simple poly tubes and route down an outside wall all the way, not turn toward the center of the coach.  But perhaps techs just took the easiest way down and out via a hole already cut for other lines.  And I've seen online vent valves or vacuum breaks that one could add directly to the tank's top if its accessible and there's room;  that would provide an exit for air pressure beyond what the overflow handles.  But getting to the tank top and cutting a hole for a valve may be not be feasible.

Forgive my ruminating here as I know it comes from some ignorance on how our Beaver water systems are configured;  the Pace Arrow's was far more accessible and simple.  But perhaps I've offered some thoughts worth considering.

-Joel

God Speed, John Glenn


« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 12:06:51 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Gerald Farris

  • Guest
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2016, 03:04:25 PM »
Let me see if I can clear up a few things here. Water tank auto siphoning does occur on some Beaver coaches when the tank is mounted between the frame rails like SMC era coach design, and it the tank is overfilled. The auto fill shut off feature on the Marquis prevents siphoning from being a problem except in rare cases where there is a malfunction or it has been disconnected. The SMC era Patriot had no auto fill shut off and siphoning is a real problem on those coaches unless you are careful to not overfill the tank. Dick, since I have never had a siphoning problem on your design coach I can not tell you where the vent hose is, but you should be able to identify it by the air flow when filling the tank. However, installing a vacuum break may be difficult since the Marquis will not have the same access that your Patriot did.

Mike, the overfill problem that you experience with high pressure is just caused by a weak spring in your red hat fill valve.

Joel, the siphoning problem does not effect your coach.

Gerald   
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 07:22:49 PM by Gerald Farris »
The following users thanked this post: Joel Ashley

Dick Simonis

  • Guest
Re: Water Tank Vent Shiponing (UPDATE)
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 07:10:44 PM »
While I respect what Gerald mentioned regarding siphoning on the Marquis, the fact remains that I (and perhaps several others) do experience this problem.  In my case it could be a level calibration issue or something else but for whatever reason it does occasional occur and seems to be somewhat random and happens at inconvenient times like when I'm at BCS and I move over to a hose connection, fill the  tank, move back to my spot and have less than 3/4 tank of water.

So, with that in mind I decided to add a vacuum breaker in the vent line.  This should be a relatively simple project but it was complicated by:

First, trying to figure out just how Beaver routed the vent line from the tank to the floor.  On our PT this was a snap, on the Marquis not so much.  Finding the outlet was easy, it comes into the back bay just inside the side wall, run towards the center of the coach then follows one of the all-thread supports downward and exits out the floor.

Next was to find out how it gets from the C/L mounted tank to the curbside wall.  This will vary by model but the Emerald has a skinny cabinet under the dinette window (works good for wine and soda storage) and the line is directly under the floor.  Pull the carpet up, remove 4 screws and you can pull up the floor board.  Bit of a surprise here, the vent comes up to an elbow than goes forward about 10" and drops back down into the floor.  From there it goes literally into the floor and cuts over to the tank.  I did not explore exactly how they did that but it was "interesting".

Once the line is accessible it was simply a matter of determine where and how to install the vacuum breaker.  I decided to mount it as far to the back of the cabinet as practical to keep it our of the way.  Than I had to disconnect the vent line inside bay and pull it up through the floor which was a bit of bother due to all the sealant around the line.  Finally had to use a cut off blade in my dermal and cut through the elbow than force the line up though 3 inches of sealant....PITA.

After I got the vent line stub up though the floor I remove the 3/4" elbow and replaced it with a 3/4" tee.  Ran 3/4" pex back to the wall, used a 3/4" X 1/2" elbow to run a 1/2" pex line up to the desired vent location.  Attached the vent, added a small block to secure the line and it was done except for reinstalling the floor and carpet.

Outside of some Flair-it fitting and some pieces of Pex pipe it was a pretty simply project.  The vacuum breaker was:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AUACX5K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Couple of small tips, using the Flair-It tool for the nuts makes life very easy as does using a heat gun to facilitate the assy and disassembly of the fittings.