Beaver Patriot Thunder Won't Start

[Tom Blad]

This is my first post to the forum and any help would be  GREATLY appreciated.   About a month ago we left on a short 50 mile trip to get an estimate on some cosmetic work to be done on the coach. Along the way I pulled off to make an outside adjustment and as I turned the key to off there was no response.  No matter what position the key was in  engine continued to run.  We continued on to the original destination and upon arrival I turned the key to off and the engine stopped normally.  10 minutes later I started the engine and it was pulled into a parking area and shut off normally .The coach was left there for a week and when I attempted to start it to pull into the shop it would not turn over.  Dash lights came on and low air chime sounded as it had lost air over the week.  Both battery banks measured O.K. but it would not crank. Only a click from the front left bay starter solenoid and also a click from what seemed to be another solenoid located in the top of the battery compartment.  Several more attempts were made an then after about 10 minutes I tried again and the engine turned over this time but would not start.  Due to the problem of not being able to shut the engine down originally a new ignition was installed. More attempts were and it would alternate between turning over and not turning over but it never started.  Finally gave up and had it towed to a Cat dealer 20 miles away.

The next day the tech tried to start it but it would not turn over. He worked on it tracing wires,etc, but could not get the engine to turn over He finally attached what he referred to a harness directly to the engine which I believe bypasses the coach electronics and the engine started right up. After a couple of days the tech indicated he had found the problem to be the rear start switch located in a rear bay. A couple of days later the dealer advised that a new switch had been installed and the tech had started the coach 12 to 15 times over the last couple of days and there were no problems. I also had them diagnose a check engine light which indicated one of the two speed/rpm sensors was bad and they replaced it. This entire process covered about a 2 week period of time and I subsequently picked up the coach and headed home. Stopped for fuel and restarted twice with no  problems. Arrived home and parked it next to the house. A few hours later I went back out to start the coach and had the same no start problem. Would not turn over and would not start. NOT a happy day!

I read over the invoice and this is what it stated: Cause: inspected cranking system, attempted to connect to engine ECM, and found it will not communicate, check for blown fuses or breakers, connect an external power supply to ECM, crank engine with a manual start button. Engine starts and runs. Inspect wiring, tested for power and ground at a pin #52 and #53 and for switch power at pin #70 at ECM connector, no power at #70 pin, found remote switch at rear right side compartment to be sticking and needs replaced. Correction: replace remote switch with a new one, Reconnect OEM 70 pin and test sestem operation. Extra time spent on repair due to chassis design Repair complete.                  Segment 1 Total $524     

I went back to the dealership and spoke with the tech and he was at a loss to explain the no start problem after the repair. He indicated he was kind of "running blind " since he had no manuals or schematics, but thought he had finally correctly identified the problem. (at the time I had no access to those schematics and manuals due to the prior theft of those items as well a many other items from the coach). The tech also said that he was able to recreate the no start situation prior to the repair by manipulating the switch. Also that after the repair he had started the coach 12-15 times over the next couple of days with no problems. The tech did seem to be very conscientious in his work and I do believe he was forthright in his explanations, but he was puzzled as to where or how to proceed further.

Since getting the coach home I have read most every post on the BAC forum and have found several similar but not identical situations. Based on reading those I have done the following:

1.The front start solenoid in the electrical bay was replaced with a new spare I have been carrying for several years and that did not solve the problem. I was a little puzzled however when the key was turned to accessory the solenoid made an audible click and I could feet it activate. When I checked the voltage it showed 12.7 with the ignition off and 0 when it was turned to accessory or start. I would have thought the opposite but I do not know how these things operate. I did not meter test the original solenoid before changing it out but I could hear and feel it activate as the switch was turned to accessory.

2.Both battery banks showed fully charged.

3.I located the ground from the house batteries to the frame and it appears good. I was not able to see where the chassis batteries ground to the frame as it is bundled with several other cables and goes towards goes the front of the coach. I could not trace that cable.

4.Another poster described a  similar problem with his 2006 Patriot Thunder and it was solved by replacing  the "PCB 1 board " (starter control board). My coach is a 2000 Patriot Thunder with 2 slides, 40 ft. and the Cat C-12 engine. Unfortunately I have not been able to find such a board and not even sure if I have one on my coach.

5.I partially pulled the rear start switch to get a better look at it  and there were no loose wires or anything out of order that I could see.


So there you have it. This has been going on now ($$$$) for over a month with no end in sight. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to include all of the information that might be relevant and what I have tried to do to solve the problem.

Needless to say any advice, opinions, etc. would be GREATLY appreciated!


Tom Blad

 

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
Welcome to the Forum! Hopefully we can give you some ideas. The problem with the engine not shutting down when the key is turned off is an intermittent one that I had on my 00 Marquis and know of one other 00 Marquis owner (now 2 counting you) that had the same problem. The “fix” was to shut the dash AC off. The engine would then stop. Never was able to trace what the actual cause was since it happened very infrequently.
The ignition solenoid in the front electrical bay will activate when you turn the key to ACC or ON as it supplies 12v to all the accessories, etc. so the clicking you hear is normal. You should see 12V on the battery side of the solenoid (large terminal on your left side) when the key is off and 12v on both sides with the key On/ACC. If the engine is not turning over it could be that the ignition switch in the dash is faulty. I think it is a standard GM ignition switch that should be available at any auto parts store. You could also have a faulty starter or starter solenoid. If the engine turns over but doesn’t start, the problem is probably air or fuel related.
Steve

[Jerry Emert]

I had a similar problem to your failure to shut down issue.  With Gerald's help I found that one of the wires on the 12vdc buss in the run bay (ignition on side) had 8 volts on it after turning the key off.  It was enough to keep the engine running.  It was a wire at the alternator that had shorted itself to a 12vdc line.  I'm not a mechanic so I had one do the "greasy" stuff.  As in my Navy days, I do the electronic stuff and if it gets too greasy I get help.  I'm slowly learning though.  I found those greasy guys are expensive!  Good luck and welcome!
Jerry

[Tom Blad]

Thanks for the responses. In regards to the no shutdown, that was the first and only time that ever happened. I was not running the air at the time and it did shutdown normally when I reached my destination so at present I'm not too concerned about that especially since I can't get the beast to run at all.  I checked the ignition solenoid and it does show 12+ volts on the battery side when off and 12+ volts on the other side with key on/acc.

As I mentioned in my post I had a new ignition switch put in the day that I had the first no start problem and it still would not start. When I had it at the CAT dealer I also had all filters changed but anyway it will not even turn over so I'm not even to the point where I can consider fuel problems unfortunately.

Is there an easy way to trouble shoot the starter? And am I right in thinking the starter has its own solenoid attached to the top of it? I am obviously not a mechanic but I do turn a wrench now and then. My motto is "first, do no harm" which I have learned the hard way!

Jerry, you are right about those greasy guys, but you can't live (or drive) without them. So far on this little project I'm for $1600 and still can't go anywhere!

Tom

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
Does you transmission console light up when the key is on? If not it is not getting power and the engine will not start. There is a fuse in the console the transmission panel is mounted in.
The starter should have a solenoid on it. Earlier chassis models also had a solenoid that powered the fuel pump and starter solenoid. It was mounted on the frame near the engine but not sure how yours is wired.
Steve

[Joe Rhea]

For what it's column I would start with 2 checks.
1. When you turn the key on do the instruments become active?
2. Retrace what the mechanic did with the aux. start switch on wire 70
My coach does not have the rear run switch, how ever my previous one did. And the best I remember the main switch had to be turned on then you could use either start position. To me the aux. switch would be the place to start for power on wire 70 or what supplies power to the switch.

[Edward Buker]

Tom,

In your item one in your first note it is not clear exactly how you were doing the measurements, that is where the probes were, so it is hard to know exactly what was going on.

The solenoid in the electrical bay may still be the culprit especially if it was carried for some time in a damp location like the bottom of the electrical bay. The contacts could be oxidized or it could be a defective unit. A new one is not very expensive if you want to do an inexpensive change to rule it out. If you have ever turned the key to acc or start since the repairs have been done and the dash gauges have not come on every time then 95% chance it is that solenoid causing the issue. The next time the no start happens don't touch anything and go measure both copper busses to ground and see if you have 12V on both. If you do then try hold down the emergency start switch on the side console for 30 seconds and see if it then starts. That switch parallels all the batteries and if it starts it is likely you have a good solenoid and key switch, just not enough current to turn things over or engage the starter solenoid.

Ultimately what you need to know is if the electrical system is toggling on and off the voltage on the starter solenoid small wire terminals or not. If not then something is open in the wiring path (look to the front ignition solenoid or key switch), or if it is toggling but the voltage is low and will not fire the solenoid look to the wiring connections, starting batteries themselves, or the heavy battery cable connections from the chassis set. If the chassis batteries are weak they can cause this issue.

If you already spent $1600 and they did not fix this issue they should be doing a free repair and sourcing this problem in my humble opinion. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Tom Blad]

Thanks to all who have replied. Ed, you are right on the #1 item on my list regarding the solenoid. I don't think I tested it properly. Since then I have tested it as Steve suggested and with the key off I'm getting 12+ volts on the large left terminal and 0 on the remaining 3 terminals.  With the key on I'm getting 12+ on one small terminal and 12+ volts on both large terminals. Based on that and hearing and feeling the audible click when turning the key I do believe the solenoid is working correctly. Also with the key on the low air light comes on, the red park brake light indicator comes on, speedometer flips all the way around and pegs out for 2-3 seconds and then returns to zero (this is normal),volt meter reads about 12.8, silverleaf lights and shows coolant temp at 68 degrees, fuel temp shows 66 degrees and intake manifold temp at 68 degrees, windshield wipers function as well as turn lights. Also with the switch off the genset starts as usual.

The transmission console does not light up when the key is on. Steve mentioned  a fuse in transmission console but I have not been able to find one. I have located and took pictures of three different P C boards in that console which I will attach pictures of to this post. The two smaller ones were taped together near the rear of the console and the other was beneath and part of the shift selector panel. I have not been able to access the top side of the larger shift selector PC board. I will free it up when I can do so without breaking something. Most boards can be freed by removing a couple of screws, but this one has about 6 plastic pegs holding it together. Anyway, looking into that board from the side at this point it does not look like it contains any fuses.

In regards to another solenoid in the rear, I have located one just to the rear of the battery box which I will attache a photo of. It appears very similar to the solenoid in the front electrical bay but I have not been able to get any numbers from it as it appears the batteries will have to be removed to access it.

Joe,you mentioned pin #70 in regards to the rear switch. Would this be the hot wire going  to one end of the remote switch? On my invoice the Cat mechanic stated " tested for power and ground at #52 and#53 and for switch power at pin #70 at ECM connector. At this point I am kind of lost. I don't know what or where the ECM is or what exactly it does. I found a heavy silver metal box measuring about 10" x 12" x 2" up in the console that holds the transmission control pad. Could this be the ECM? I think you are right about the operation of the remote switch. I used that switch once about 8-9 years ago and it did not start the next time I tried it. After it did start I never used that switch again. Also do you know if the two gauges in the rear start area (water temp and oil pressure light up when the compartment light switch is thrown? Mine does not light up and am wondering if there might not be any power going to that rear start compartment. I will be doing more checking on that.

Ed, the next time I have a no start condition will not be far off since it has not started since I returned from the Cat service. I did as you suggested and found that in measuring from copper busses I get I get 12+ on the hot side and 0 on the other side with ignition off. When key is turned on I get 12+ on both sides. I have also tried the boost switch and still no crank and no start. I will be attempting to test the starter solenoid itself and from there. I may have to wait till tomorrow as I am still recovering from the last day or two of twisting myself into the unnatural conditions to do this stuff!

Also thought I should mention the $1600 tab on the Cat work. A little ? frustration is beginning to set in on us and in all fairness the $1600 included some other items such as coolant change and replacing a speed sensor, etc. I would still like to have had them offer some options but they were completely stumped. I just don't think they wanted the challange. We are attempting to do a complete update on the coach and thought we would start with the mechanicals and then on to the interior. So far we haven't even got a good start on the mechanicals so we are FAR FAR behind!

Eventually though we'll get on with it just as soon as we get the Beeve fired up!

I was going to attach the aforementioned pictures to this post, but would like to take a couple more pictures that might be helpful and attach to a separate post.

Thanks for the suggestions and help. We'll keep at it.

Tom Blad

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
This post may help re Allison fuse location.  http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,4631.msg35142.html#msg35142
Steve

[Gerald Farris]

Tom,
Your ECM (engine control module) is bolted to the passenger's side of your engine block.

Gerald

[Tom Blad]

Steve,

Thanks for the link. Box was located just where the link indicated in the electrical bay. I guess I spent so much time fixated on the solenoid over the last couple of days that I didn't notice the box labeled "Allison". That's the good news. The bad news is I found two 10 amp fusses and both were good. I was sooo hoping to find a blown fuse but at least there was some progress made today.   In the console beneath the shift pad there is another silver metal box with an Allison tag on it. It is labeled as an ECU. I plan to open it up tomorrow. Would you think there could be fusses in there?

And Gerald, thanks for the info. I found the ECM with no problem. Just didn't know what it looked like. Would this be where the Cat tech hooked up the harness to initially bypass the coach electronics to get it started?

Also as I mentioned in my earlier post I attempted to attach pictures of some of the boards, etc.that I located but an error code was displayed and the post never materialized. I'll try again later.

Thanks,

Tom

[Edward Buker]

Tom,

If you find that you can toggle the 12V  on the starter solenoid with the key in the start position (like to see 12V on the solenoid but the harness will drop some voltage) I think the next step would be to hammer on the starter solenoid and see if it is sticking and see if it will then start. I am on the road so I check in on this one when I can...

Later Ed

[Joel Ashley]

Tom, there are kb limits on each image (300 kb) and also the total per post (5000 kb) which is likely why you got the error message.  In the General Boards section you'll find Forum Assistance, and under that we've created several help areas including how to deal with photos and such.

If using Windows, I've found the quickest way to downsize imagery is to open them in Paint, then choose the "Image" tab, then "Resize/Skew", and drop the image parameters from 100 down to about 25 percent, which will cut the data load to somewhere near what the Forum can manage.  Then save each as a copy that you can use for emailing or post on the Forum.  Windows 10's Paint skips a step, revealing a handy "Resize" option on the main page. For immediate use and convenience, I just put them on my desktop for easy locating when "browsing" from the Forum "Attachments and other options" button. 

If using a Mac, instructions are there on the Forum Assistance site previously mentioned.

Joel

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
I'd definitely check both Allison boxes for fuses. If you can't find any in the second box then I'd go back to the first box and see if there is 12v at the fuses. As I mentioned earlier, if the Allision panel isn't getting power (lit up) the engine won't start.
Steve

[Tom Blad]

Still no light on the shift pad so no start. I checked inside the Allison black plastic box located in the electrical bay. The board inside is stamped as Allison Transmission 29509439. The board has 6 Bosch high capacity 12v spdt 50 amp relays # 0332209137 attached to it. On the board there is also printing in different places which says "IGN, main power, neutral start,and reverse warning" . I cannot tell which relay might be associated with which function. Also mounted on the board are two 10amp fuses. The fusses tested O.K. for continuity and showed no voltage whether the ignition switch was on accessory or start.There are also 16 metal pins/bridges that are mounted on the board and are linked to a total of 26 wires via 4 separate plug ins. Plug in numbers 1 and 2 have a total of 14 white labeled wires with designations such as engine brake common, ignition  power, engine brake out, power to reverse relay, 357 to xsm neutral, 365 ecm common, 209 reverse relay out, battery power, 232 start, 232a start,etc. The other two plug ins contain a total of12 multi colored wires and are are wrapped in tape and covered with a plastic shield. I could not read the labeling on those wires if they had any labeling. The previously mentioned 16 metal bridges were tested for voltage and they are identified on the board as a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,j,k,l,m,n,p,r,s. With the ignition switch off none of the bridges showed any voltage. When the ignition was turned to accessory, bridge b was the only one that showed any voltage which was measured 12.6 volts. When turning the ignition switch to start, bridge b showed 12.45 volts as did bridge f. That was all the testing on that that I have been able to do so far. Any ideas on how to test this board?

I did separate the multi wire connector between the transmission selector pad  and the silver metal allison box both of which are located in the transmission console in the drivers area inside the coach. I will be checking continuity on the short wire run from the pad to the connector, and hope to open the silver metal box to check for fuses, etc.

As Ed suggested I went under the coach to check the starter and starter solenoid and found that it looks like the starter itself has a total of 4  larger cables all of which are attached to the same post on the end of the starter. Not sure where they go but they showed no power. The solenoid which is mounted on top of the starter has a total of 1 larger copper colored terminal which has constant power and tested 13 amps with ignition switch off and showed no change when the ignition was turned to start. I have not  been able to test the other 3 smaller yellow wires. one of the smaller yellow wires is attached to the same terminal as the larger copper colored one. Any thoughts on what, if any reading I should be able to get from the 3 other yellow solenoid wires? I also gave the solenoid a couple of hard raps with a hammer and  that did not produce any results. (it felt pretty good to do that though!).

Well, I'm off  to attempt to access the silver metal Allison box and also to check the wiring on the remote rear switch and the nearby compartment light switch. Can anyone advise what this switch does since there are no lights in that compartment?

Thanks,

Tom