Beaver Patriot Thunder Won't Start

[Tom Blad]

Steve,

To clarify things, wire 233 comes from ignition side of CB and goes go to the I terminal. The B+ terminal is connected to battery voltage via a large cable to the battery isolater. Terminal R  "alternator out"  would be wire #450 according to the schematic). I have not yet been able to trace this wire to its' termination.

What I have found out is that the original alternator was a Leece-Neville A0012824LC. That alternator has an additional terminal labeled "S". The alternator that the repair facility used as a replacement does not have an "S" sense terminal. The Alternator they used is a Road Choice ALT24H (160 amps). I have not been able to find much information on this exact unit, however it is a clone of a Delco-Remy 8600310 (160 amps) which is a non "S" terminal model. This is why I have a total of 5 wires and only 4 terminals. As I mentioned in my post of Aug. 9 I know where the positive and negative wires attach, but it is the other three white that are a concern. So I guess the question is where do the wires go when you are converting from an alternator with an "S" terminal to one that does not have that feature?

I did get on a Delco site and apparently this can be done. They explain how to hook up an alternator with a sense terminal and it appears as though the Beaver set up is exactly like this including the use of a 5 amp blade type fuse all of which I have. They also stated that " If installing a non-Remote Sense alternator  in a vehicle that has a Remote sense line, disconnect and secure the wire from the battery. Only connect the Remote Sense line to the Remote Sense terminal. The "R" and "I" terminals are not the Remote Sense Terminal!". They also stated that the only downside is that with out the sense feature the batteries will get about 1/2 amp less charge initially and is usually only important if the vehicle engine is making frequent starts and stops.

Has anyone done this and have there been any downsides. I really don't feel like buying another alternator unless I absolutely have to.

Thanks,

Tom



 

[Tom Blad]

I failed to mention I traced the 1A (according to the schematic) white wire,which I believe is the "Sense" wire to the starter solenoid, which was "hot" all the time.

Tom

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
I'm out  of ideas. Wire 450 already has a 5a fuse and diode in line per the dwgs.  If we knew the wire #s on all 5 wires it would help. There is 450, 233, 1A?,  ??, ??.
Consider calling Leece Neville, BCS or Road Choice for advice once you have wire #s and labels of where they are supposed to go according to dwgs.
You said you had switched a couple of wires and things appeared to be working. If it starts, stops, and charges. what problem are you trying to solve?
Steve

[Tom Blad]

The 5 wires are identified on the dwgs as #233 (which I have physically identified and traced from the ignition side of the CB to the alternator), #1A (which I believe is the "sense" wire and measurement showed it to be hot as it should be all the time) I have traced it to the starter solenoid and it attaches to the large solenoid post along with the large positive cable which goes to the solenoid.  Concerning the #450 wire: ( the one with the 5 amp fuse and diode in the line) I am still working on it. I think I  have identified it with a signal generator but haven't been able to actually see the numbers on the wire and have not yet been able to determine where it terminates yet. The last two wires do not have numbers on them but it is obvious they are the alternator ground cable which terminates on the left side of the engine connected to a ground stud along with some other ground wires. The last of the 5 wires from the alternator terminals is the large positive cable which does not have a number on it but it goes to the battery isolater.

The problem I am trying to solve is this: When I first switched the wires on the alternator the engine started and stopped normally. The readings I got when the engine was running was- R terminal 10.57v, I terminal 12.20v, B+  terminal 12.94.  Are these readings within acceptable limits? It would seem to me that upon starting there should be higher initial readings on some of these terminals. The readings stayed the same regardless of the engine RPM. As I remember from earlier times before I had any problems that the ammeter silverleaf and CMP would initially show in the low 13v. The ammeter, silversleaf and CMP all showed higher readings than what I have shown above.

Today, after switching the wires as described previously and taping off the sense wire as described in the Delco instructions (remembering that their instructions are for converting from a "sense" equipped alternator to a "none sense" equipped alternator which is what I am doing since the repair facility installed a "none sense" equipped alternator) these are the readings I obtained while the engine was running: R terminal 7v, I terminal 13.9, B+ terminal 14.08. Obviously these readings are significantly different that the above readings. In addition the engine would not shut down from the key switch up front. It did stop when I used the front/kill/rear start switch in the rear service bay.

It gets down to the question of which of the above two set ups is correct or is there a 3rd option?
The first option seems two be putting out too low of an initial charge to the batteries and the second causes a shutdown problem.

Tom 

[Edward Buker]

Tom,

The sense wire you are referring to could go to the tachometer on some coaches that use the alternator as a pulse generator to provide an rpm related signal. The first set up of the alternator using sense mode, the output is to low. About 13.8V to 14.1V would be appropriate for an alternator as long as it is handling the current load and is not derating itself based on high current output as part of the protection circuitry. Obviously you do not have that problem in either sense  mode.

The taped off sense wire should have no bearing here given it is just a straight B+ wire from the starter terminal and does not lead to any component that has a toggled circuit to affect the running of the engine.

I think I would see between the two alternator set ups (sensed and non sensed) what the voltage level is with the ignition switch on and off at the main electrical bay ignition buss and the small wire input to the solenoid that comes from the key switch. I am not sure how the shut down input is derived and where it goes but I think it must be some wire that is tied to the ignition buss. My thought is there must be some difference in how this toggling of voltage is taking place on that wire.

The other thought is what is different about the rear start on off circuit? What wire input is getting toggled with that switch, what are the voltage levels on that input wire using the rear switch vs the front switch. Ultimately the same input wire to a shut off circuit needs to be toggled whether you use the front vs back switching.

If you find that you can get this to work from the back only and you find that the front ignition buss  solenoid is working with the front key switch (toggles to 0V) but the engine continues to run then you could run a wire from the front ignition buss to the rear start switch and add a Bosch style relay in parallel with the rear ignition switch and fire the coil with the wire from the front buss to open NC or NO contacts to mimic the current switch. This option is a bit of a pain but may be less work in the long run... Hope this helps.

Later Ed   

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom, Ed,
The tach gets its signal from the ECM so not clear what would be hooked to the "R" terminal of the alternator as I think  it is a pulsed signal from the stater.
Steve

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Tom,
Not sure if you noticed this in prints. The 450 wire (5a fuse and diode) is only shown going to alternator on coaches w/o a service center. Coaches with a service center only have wires 233 and 1A (ign and sense) running to alternator.
Although I can't find it on the prints, I'm wondering if 450 powers the Racor prime system???
Steve

[Tom Blad]

Steve,

Yes, I did notice this on the prints but this does not correspond to the set up on my coach. The 450 wire, which I have identified  with the 5 amp fuses and diode, does go to the alternator but I do have a rear service center   Also contrary to the prints I have 233. 450, and 1A running to the alternator. I just have to assume that they changed the set up sometime during the manufacturing process. Interesting thought on Racor prime system. In trying to trace the wires from that system I could only find a packet of perhaps 3-4 wires incased in a fairly heavy plastic sheath. I didn't get in to that. It may now be a moot point which I will explain shortly.

Ed,

I was just about to start the process you outlined in your last post and thought I would call BCS to see if they could add any information. In talking to Ken Carpenter he advised that a great many inquires he gets on alternator problems occur after changing brands from the original Leece-Neville. He also advised that he could not describe the routing of the wires that might be involved but said that most of the time when the owners went back to the original their problems disappeared. The following day I had occasion to be in a town that had couple of automotive electrical shops that service and sell alternators. Thought I would stop in just to check the price on a new Leece-Neville in the event that the next series of tests and the last ones that I was going to try, the ones that you recommended didn't solve the problem I would probably bite the bullet and replace the alternator (ugh!!). In talking to the counter man ( I had never been to this place before) and explaining the numerous problems I was encountering, including trying to hook up a "non sense" alternator to a coach that previously had a "sense" system he advised that if it were himself he would install a diode right before the "I" terminal on the alternator. He felt that that since that output numbers I was getting was good that the diode might very well solve the problem of the engine not shutting down. Then he "GAVE" me the diode and wished me an early Merry Christmas. I went home and wired it in as he suggested. The engine started right up and shut down as it should. I tried it several times and everything was fine. I am REALLY hoping I can finally put this thing to bed!

Ed, I think you were very close to nailing this one down. I remember one of your other posts suggested feed back going back up to the ignition might be causing the problem. Thanks for all the help and to all others who have contributed.

P.S. One other thing for those of you who may be having parking brake problems with the disc system, when I was talking to BCS I ordered a new parking brake pad since one of mine has worn down again almost to the metal, the parts man mentioned that they have a retro kit which consists of 2 springs which will keep the pads separated and should eliminate many of the wear problems. I did not know this was available.  Not sure if this is a DIY project or not but Ken is sending installation and adjustment instructions along with the pad.

Tom

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Is it charging as it should?

[Tom Blad]

Yes, it is charging now. The diode is installed with the silver band facing toward the alternator and the output did not change from what it was before the diode was installed. The only effect it seemed to have is that it solved the no shut down problem. I have checked it three different times with the engine running and the average readings were: B+ terminal 14.06v, I terminal 13.25v, and R terminal 7.03v.

Tom

[Edward Buker]

Tom,

You never know where the solution will come from.... thanks to Ken and the mystery alternator shop counter guy.

I thought back feeding was involved but I did not know exactly which terminal was involved or how it might be fixed. Good for you.....You get the Beaver Perseverance Award winner for 2017 :-)

In these kind of problems sometimes it can be just voltage noise coming off a terminal like that which degrades the on off voltage levels at the ECU terminal so the noise goes above the turn off voltage sense threshold. Alternators are notorious for putting out voltage noise. With audio in radios many times you can hear a whine related to RPM and you need to add suppression electronics or move the power lead to the battery terminal. The diode is probably blocking pulse noise from getting on that wire.

My suggestion would be to create a new post titled "Engine Non Shut Down Using a Delco Non Sense Wire Alternator As A Leece Neville Replacement" or whatever title best fits getting future hits on this issue. Document the symptom,  the terminal, the diode arrangement, even a photo of the alternator with the diode if possible. I think this is something others may face on the road when a Leece Neville is not available.

Hope you can go have some fun in that Patriot now :-)

Later Ed