Author Topic: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...  (Read 4926 times)

Eric Palmer

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Hi folks. I've been slowly working on my coach since I purchased it last October trying to get it into fighting shape. Everyone on here has been very helpful and I've fixed a bunch stuff on the old beast with your help. So, here is what's been going on.

-I had the alternator fail, had it rebuilt, installed it and it failed right away again.

-Alternator shop gives me a new alternator and I install it. It is 12 volt 145 amps.

-I start the coach  and notice on my dash voltage gauge the voltage fluctuating between 13.0and 13.6 (it stays at 13.0 for 5 seconds then goes to 13.6 for 10-15 seconds and then repeats. Batteries are new and charged) and there is a clicking sound coming from my electronics bay below the driver side window. I couldn't tell if the click was coming from the relay in the bay or one of the circuit breakers (if that what they are?) but either way, both sides of the relay are powered until I turn the key off and then the relay opens as it should and voltage goes to zero on one side

-I leave it overnight and the next morning, by chance, touch the alternator while looking in the engine bay and notice its hot. So voltage is flowing back from the batteries, through the battery isolator and to the alternator.

-I replace the Battery isolator and that fixes the reverse voltage flow to the alternator, but the fluctuating voltage is still happening

-I find out that when the coach is running and the voltage drops to 13, and I turn the key off, the coach engine won't shut down but the gauges go to zero and the odometer starts rolling forward. When I put the key back to the on position, everything goes back to normal (running engine normal)

-I then try turning the key off when the voltage fluctuation hits 13.6 (the high end of the fluctuation) and the coach turns off like it should

-I test the voltage at the alternator and it's 14.19-14.21 and not fluctuating the same as it does on my voltage gauge.

-I test the voltage at the battery Isolator on the stud that the alternator attaches to and it's fluctuating between 13.2 and 13.8 at the same interval as my voltage gauge.

-I try tracing the wire between the alternator and the isolator to find out if it connects to something that could be doing this, but I can't reach or see where it goes

-After attempting to trace the wires by jamming my arm as far as it can reach forward of the engine bay, I try to start the coach

-It turns over fine but won't start. There is no RPM while cranking and there are no check engine lights

-I've checked everything I can think of

-I need to somehow check if there is voltage going to my ECM but I don't how it connects to the system. Does it have a circuit breaker?

As you can see it's getting complicated. If anyone has a wiring diagram for my coach it would be great to see it. I've looked through this website and all the maintenance manuals available, but none of them go into enough detail. Thanks ahead of time for any advice.

1998 Beaver Patriot Brandywine CAT 3126 330hp

Dave Atherton

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2018, 12:56:33 PM »
Eric, there is a box that located on some motorhomes in battery area or up front by on left. This box looks like trans ECM and sometime side by side has six screws holding cover in place. Inside this
box you will see two rolls of relays with a 10 amp fuse on corner on top and 10 amp fuse on
End of bottom. Sounds like a blown fuse if so engine will turn over but will not start.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Eric Palmer

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2018, 08:53:45 PM »
Checked the fuses in the Allison transmission box in the electronics bay and they are all good. Also tested to see if there is voltage going to the ECM and there is. Used a non contact voltage tester and placed it in the bundle of wires that go into the ECM. It blinked as I cranked the engine. Also checked to make sure I was getting oil pressure while cranking the engine and I am. Any other suggestions?

Mike Shumack

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2018, 09:16:17 PM »
From reading through your story, it sounds like the engine was running up until your tried to trace the wire from the isolator. You stuck you arm in (somewhere) as far as you could and after that the engine would not start. If that is the case, I would suspect you knocked a connector loose in the harness wherever your arm went.

That would be the logical place to look.

So where were you tracing the alternator/isolator wire at - the back of the battery box or in the engine compartment?
Can you get under the coach or into this area to get a better look? Perhaps get your arm up in there again and wiggle the harness a little. If the engine starts after that you'll know where the loose connector is located.

In this video (around 1:30 minute mark), you can see the engine ECM on the left side of engine (curbside of coach) see is any of the connectors in this area are loose or unplugged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj2wfZwMJP4

Eric Palmer

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 11:18:13 PM »
No luck so far. I can't find anything that might be causing this engine not to start. I have a neighbour who's a diesel mechanic and I'm hoping he can take a look at it soon. Otherwise time to break out the cheque book!

David T. Richelderfer

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2018, 03:14:12 AM »
Eric - One question... When you turn the ignition to the ON position, then your transmission keypad must show the transmission is in neutral.  If no "N" on the keypad, then the transmission is not reporting a proper prestart status to the engine and it will not try to start.  Do you have an "N" on the keypad?
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Joel Ashley

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 05:10:34 AM »
I'm by no means knowledgeable here, but just a couple of observations:

A "non-contact voltage tester"?  I have a couple for alternating current (50v - 200v) systems, but didn't know there was such an animal for 12v.  Do you mean a clamp meter?  That measures current, not voltage.

Also of note, from what I've read here most coaches these days use a 160amp Leese Neville alternator, and sometimes methinks that can be lacking.  145amp is a bit shy.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Eric Palmer

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 08:20:27 PM »
Well, got it all figured out! To start, the alternator that the shop sold me did not have the proper setup for this application and that kept tripping one of the self resetting fuses in the electronics bay causing the fluctuations in my voltage. I'll be picking up a new LeeceNeville 160amp alternator tomorrow morning to install from the same shop at no cost. Second, after tracing more wires, I found the fuse to the ECM buried amongst a bundle of wires behind my house batteries. The fuse wasn't blown, but very corroded because it didn't have the fuse cover on it. New 20amp fuse and she started right up. Thanks for all the help folks. All your suggestions kept me thinking witch led me to the fix. Oh, that non conductive voltage tester is a normal household tester I bought from Home Hardware. It can sense down to 50volts and the ECM can be as high as 120volts. I got the idea from a guy on youtube describing how to troubleshoot CAT engines. Heres a link to the video if interested https://youtu.be/yAsq9X_ytrs (at 8:36 is where he displays the device)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 08:30:04 PM by Eric Palmer »
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Mike Shumack

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2018, 08:53:20 PM »
Glad to hear you have her running.

I've seen that Adept Ape CAT video. He has a good series on CATs.

I wonder why the voltage probe was "blinking" (indicating you had power) when the engine wouldn't run. It sounds like that test gave a false positive reading.

That blinking test light would say the ECM is trying to fire the injectors - so why didn't the engine start? If you were not getting fuel it would make sense but you did not have a fuel problem (unless that corroded wire/fuse was feeding an electric lift pump.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 11:06:40 AM by Mike Shumack »

Joel Ashley

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2018, 10:01:57 PM »
I see the Klein model in the video is indeed rated to sense down to 12 volts.  I may have to pick one of those up.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Eric Palmer

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2018, 10:58:08 PM »
Glad to hear you have her running.

I've seen that Adept Ape CAT video. He has a good series on CATs.

I wonder why the voltage probe was "blinking" (indicating you had power) when the engine wouldn't run. It sounds like that test gave a false positive reading.

When the engine is cranking it the ECM voltage jumps up to 100 volts

Joel Ashley

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Re: 1998 Patriot now won't start, but that's not where this started...
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 08:24:39 AM »
Follow up:
I almost got one of those detectors, then caught on that they say 12-somanyvolts AC.  Further searching since enlightened me that there is no such animal as a non-contact 12 v detector.  I hadn’t watched the entire video Eric linked to, otherwise I’d have caught on the detector used there was apparently picking up CAT high voltage.  Many devices’ descriptions mention DC detection and non-contact but are misleading in not clarifying that only the AC side is non-contact;  the DC voltage has to be detected using the usual ground clip and contact probe.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat