Author Topic: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue  (Read 6073 times)

Randy Stephenson

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2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« on: November 07, 2018, 01:35:50 AM »
I have read many posts regarding no-starting conditions, unfortunately, I have not seen suggestions for my current issue.  Following is a description of events:

1. I pre-heated the C-12, retracted all slides, unplugged the coach and was ready to leave Breckenridge, CO.
2. Turned on the ignition, low air pressure sounded as normal, there was very little cracking power, seemed like low battery condition.  Which was a mystery since the coach was pulled in for weeks and the inverter indicated 100% battery charge.
3. I switched the chassis and house battery switch on and off, power then showed on the dash volt meter when the key was turned. However, once I turned the key to start, low cranking was still and issue and the voltage meter on the dash gauge showed no or only 10-volts once again.
4. After several attempts of turning the chassis and house batteries on and off again, I was able to turn the engine over.
5. On the drive back to Michigan, I started and stopped the coach four times at fuel stops, the engine started up just fine.
6. After arriving home the next day I tried to start the coach, again the low cranking issue / low dash voltage condition returned.  This time, I used the boost switch and the coach started.  Therefore, seemed a new solenoid was needed.
7. The following day when the key was turned to start position I heard clicking sounds from the front bay.  Therefore, assured me that a new solenoid was in need. 
8. Today, I picked up a new solenoid and installed it (took a picture prior to removing to make sure wires were connected correctly).  Once completed, there is now no-power to the dash or low pressure alarm when the key is turned to start position.
9. So, I put the old solenoid back in, same issue no power.  I did turn off both the chassis and house battery switch prior to removing, installing, and re-installing the solenoids. So, I don't think I blew a fuse.
10. Volt meter check indicates there is 14.6 on the main power cable running to the solenoid, so battery charge level not does appear to be the issue.
11. When turning the key to the left for accessory mode the radio and Aladdin power up.  However when turning the key to the right, there is a noticeable dim to the overhead lights,  and it seems that there is a relay underway the dash coming on.  The accessory mode will not work until after a few minutes go by.  Hence the reason I suspect there is a circuit breaker style fuse under the dash that is tripping.
12. With the ignition switch on accessory mode, the Aladdin does not show any engine data (which it normally shows engine and trans temperature).

I'm stumped as to why there was intermediate power the dash prior to installing a new solenoid.  And now,  no-power on the ignition mode after installing a new solenoid and then again after re-installing the old solenoid.  I am now wondering if the ignition switch could be the issue?  If so, I believe I have read in the posts that it is a GM ignition switch available at auto parts stores.

Your thoughts and expertise would be very helpful, I need to get the coach winterized and into the barn for the winter.

Randy   
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 05:02:38 AM »
Randy,
Have you checked battery voltages at the batteries with a volt meter when you have a start issue? The symtoms you are describing, including a clicking igntion solenoid, all point to low battery voltage.
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp
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Mike Shumack

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 12:52:51 PM »
Check your battery cables and connections too. A dirty cable terminal end/connection can show as normal voltage with a meter until power is demanded (like cranking engine) then it will show a large drop in voltage.

One easy test is a "voltage drop test". You put positive voltmeter probe on center of battery terminal and negative probe to furthest point you can reach (on the positive wire) (like battery disconnect switch terminal (test both sides/terminals of switch), to starter positive terminal, bat neg terminal to ground cable connection point, etc.). Then you run power through the circuit (such as cranking engine or turning on lights depending on what circuit your testing) and measure the voltage drop. A good circuit will read around .1 or .2 Volts drop (over 0.4 VDC is a problem). You can do this test from the battery center post to the battery terminal end on the same battery to measure voltage drop between post and terminal (any voltage drop means terminal is not making good connection).

It's a little hard for me to explain this test clearly, so look at this link https://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm  or  https://us.autologic.com/news/how-to-perform-a-voltage-drop-test
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 02:08:33 PM by Mike Shumack »

Randy Stephenson

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 02:41:13 PM »
Steve and Mike:

Thank you for the feedback, I checked the chassis battery this morning with a multimeter.  There are 13.8 volts on the chassis battery,  Aladdin is showing 13.1 volts.  There is 13.8 volts showing at the positive cable solenoid post too.  Still have accessory power at the radio and Aladdin, but, no power to the dash gauges when the key is turned to the start position. 

It is very puzzling that the key ignition start function had power prior to turning off the chassis and coach battery switch, before replacing the solenoid.  Seems that there is a relay or circuit that is not coming back on when the power switches are turned back to the on position?
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Mike Shumack

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 03:42:37 PM »
Did you check power to the solenoid in the front run box? The one that powers up all the circuit breakers.

Roy C Tyler

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 03:50:38 PM »
Did you get the diode, across the bottom of the solenoid, in the right direction when you replaced it?
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Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 04:40:46 PM »
Randy,
I need a reset on this.

When you turn the key to the ON position, you have no dash lights or activity??
Does the engine start notrmally when you move the key to START??
Do the dash guages etc. come back to "life" once the engine starts??

If the engine is not starting, the start 12v signal comes from CB01 in the front electrical bay to the ignition switch, then thru the tranmission Nuetral safety switch in the VIM, then to the engine start solenoid and then to the starter.

Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Randy Stephenson

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 09:51:40 PM »
Mike:

I have power to the solenoid, and no dash, low pressure alarm , or start function.  So, is why I don't understand what caused this issue. 

Roy:

I took a picture of the wire routing before replacing the solenoid.  So I'm pretty sure i hooked the wires up correctly.  I was thinking about reversing the two small white wires to see if there is a difference.  However, was afraid of causing another issue. 

Randy
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Randy Stephenson

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 10:07:08 PM »
Steve:

I do not have power to the dash when the key is turned to the ignition phase.  I did have power at this phase before installing the new solenoid. Then I  re-installed the old solenoid, still no dash power.  However, there is power to the radio on the accessory phase of the ignition switch?  So , I know the switch is getting power.

I have noticed that the overhead lights dim when I turn the key to right "the ignition start phase" , no power.  Then the accessory phase does not have power until after a few minutes.  I suspect there is a delay fuse under the dash that resets.  after waiting a bit, have power at accessory mode again, but, no dash power.

When this all started, there was dash power but very low cranking and voltage would drop to 10 volts (so I suspected the chassis battery needed charging).  However, after switching the battery disconnect several times, I had full 14 volts at the dash and it started.  Drove from Colorado to Michigan, stopping and starting four times without issues.

  When I tried to move the coach the next day at home, is when I heard the solenoid clicking.  So based on info on the site, I installed the new solenoid, thats when the no dash power started?  So, I put the old solenoid back in thinking the new one was defective, again no dash power?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 10:43:20 PM by Randy Stephenson »
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Mike Shumack

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 11:16:42 PM »
Hi Randy,
I'm thinking about your electrical problem too. The solenoid you replaced, is that the one in the front elec bay (like the photo above) or are you talking about the solenoid located above the batteries in the distribution box/compartment? I just want to be sure I understand what you were working on.

If it is the front run/electric bay, the wire on the left terminal of solenoid is power from Ignition switch (hot with Key On), the terminal on the right is the solenoid coil ground.

If the solenoid is working you would have power to the entire row (copper bus bar) on the right side when the key is On. The buss bar on the left is always hot.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 11:33:13 PM by Mike Shumack »
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Randy Stephenson

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 12:58:09 AM »
Thanks Mike:

It is the solenoid in the front bay.  I checked power on incoming lead it has 14.8 volts, the bank on the left side has power too. I have not checked the right side with the key on, since  a relay seems to come on under the dash and shuts the ignition switch down.  I'll try to check the right side with the key on in the morning.

Randy
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Mike Shumack

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 01:49:48 AM »
Could that relay under the dash be for the front/dash AC? If possible, I would turn off the dash AC controls and any other switches on dash until you figure this out. Maybe you have a short in one of those components. If you turn everything off and then engine starts or dash gauges/lights come on normally, then start turning those switches back on one at a time.

Meanwhile, I'll look at those the electrical diagrams some more and see if I can find a relay in the dash area.

Also, that solenoid you replaced, you did buy a "continuous duty" solenoid, right? Not a "momentary duty" solenoid like used for a starter circuit.

Randy Stephenson

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 01:10:12 PM »
Mike:

Thanks, I plan to start investigating under the dash, will check to make sure the fan issue off.  I did get the solenoid referenced on this site.

COLE HERSEE #24059-BX
DC Solenoid, 12V DC Coil, 85A, N.O., SPST, Copper Contact, Continuous Duty

Right now, I have the old one back in, since the coach had power in the dash before I took  it out.  Trying to narrow down the problem. 
Randy & Jane Stephenson
2004 Beaver Patriot Thunder
Lexington 40' 3 Slides
CAT C12 505 HP

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 03:16:15 PM »
Randy,
It's normal for the dash accessories to lose power when the key is turned to the START position. Verify that the diode on the solenoid has the band pointed to the 12V input (toward front of coach). Also, try switching CB01 and CBO3 on the left (always hot) buss bar in the front electrical bay. CB01 is the ignition switch CB and may be tripping initally and when it cools down, resetting.
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Mike Shumack

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Re: 2004 Patriot Thunder Starting Issue
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2018, 03:50:12 PM »
Maybe this pic will help regarding diode placement.