BAC Forum
General Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: John 'Bo' Achord on April 11, 2012, 06:31:15 PM
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I am looking for some guidance on purchasing a brake system for my dinghy. I have a 2011 Honda CR-V. I will be pulling it with a 2008 42' Beaver Contessa with a 4ooHP.
I have been reading about so many different ones on the internet. So I am hoping that I can receive some feedback
from some experince travelers. Thanks
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BO...You'll probably get a lot of advice on this topic as there are so many different "toad" braking systems out there. I have been towing a Honda Civic for 11 years with an M & G system and it works very well for us. I went with this one as I did not want to drill any holes in the floor of the tow car which several of the systems require. I'm sure there are a few new systems out there that don't require drilling but those I'm not familiar with. I just know that I'm happy with the M & G system. I believe all the systems out there depends personal choice. Good luck on your selection.
Mandy
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I've used SMI's Air Force One on 2 vehicles now and really like it. As for drilling a hole. The 1/4" air hose is ran into the passenger compartment along with the wires to activate the TOAD's lights, so no big deal. What you'll discover is that the M&G wil not fit on many new cars. Which ever you decide on, these two are the leading, if not the only ones, that operate proportionally off the coach's air brake system.
Just my opinion.
Gil
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We've put nearly 20,000 miles on using the ReadyBrute integrate tow bar and braking system (also available as a ReadyBrake braking system without tow bar). I know everyone has an opinion on this subject, but I like the ReadyBrake because it uses the KISS principle--no electricity, no air pressure, no hydraulics.
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Mandy , Gil , & Joel I appreciate the information each of you shared. I will take a look into each braking system .
Thanks very much again.
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Bo, This is the one that was on my 2000 Marquis when I got it. http://www.viprv.com/towbrake/towbrake.cfm#about
I have used it for 2 years. First on a 2001 Nissan Frontier, then on my present, 2004 Dodge Dakota 4x4. I only needed to wire it to the trucks and made a mount bracket that bolts to the drivers seat ,front mount bolts. No new holes.
It activates the toad brakes if I'm braking, and slowing quickly according to the adjustment. It has automatic breakaway, and keeps the toad battery charged. I'm very happy with it, although I never see it refered to in any of the groups I belong to.
I have no connection to this company,and am just passing on my info
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Your Beaver came prewired for a Unified Tow Brake, so you should consider that option. I'm a fan of Roadmaster products, and can vouch for their Brakemaster system. They now make a system that requires no effort at all when disconnecting or connecting to the coach; it ain't cheap, but if I had it to do all over again, I might spring for that convenience.
As to not having a system at all, I wouldn't consider that route, and I'm sure the majority of Beavers on the Forum would agree. The stopping distance an auxilliary brake provides is a huge safety plus, and it cuts down on coach brake wear. Plus you can't ignore that auxilliary braking is a requirement in most jurisdictions now, and you darned better have it in Canada. If you had an accident and weren't legally configured, well, good luck with the law and insurance.
Joel
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Tom,
Have you considered what would happen if your Jeep separated from your coach? In many states you would be at fault for not having a break away brake system.
Gil
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We have a Brakemaster from Roadmaster and like it as it only works when the motorhome brakes are applied and is proportional to the brake pressure applied to motorhome.
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I have a Brakemaster too. I like it because it is simple. When you press the motohome peddle, air goes to your motorhome brakes. For the Brakemaster, a line is tapped into the airbrake system and routed to the car. In the car, a simple cylinder is attached to the car's peddle. So, when you step on the motorhome peddle, some of the air goes to the car and applies the brakes at a rate that depends on how hard you are pressing on the motorhome peddle.
The problem with all of these systems, including the one I have, is that you don't have any idea how much force is being applied to the car's brake peddle. Is it enough? Is it too much? Is it too little? What about wet pavement? Or, an ice patch? Do all brands of cars react to peddle pressure the same when the power brakes are off?
When you have a 30 or 40 thousand pound motorhome with a 3 or 4 thousand pound car and routinely do "normal" stops, you can't tell what the car is doing. If I have a panic stop, I hope the car's brakes are working hard too. But not too hard, because any trailer with locked brakes and skidding tires is the definition of a "jackknife".
As far as I know, no independent testing company has ever done evaluations of these systems using sensors, accelerometers or even stopping distances. This is a perfect example of "buyer be ware", do your homework and take a best guess.
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Bill's description of the Brakemaster system is exactly the same as SMI's Air Force One. I don't know about the Brakemaster system, but AF1 includes a small air tank and solenoid to support a break-away capability.
I too have no idea how much braking is being supplied. When I did the install I adjusted how far the pedal was pulled. My goal is to only provide some braking when braking hard or if the vehicle separates from the coach.
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As a retired physics teacher, I will re-state the argument I use every time this discussion comes up on a forum. I'm sure it isn't going to change anyone's mind, but I would feel remiss if I did make the case.
I don't dispute the fact that the MH is capable of stopping itself and a toad vehicle under most circumstances. As long as the toad lines up well with the MH the force on the MH from the toad will be in the same direction as the MH is moving and braking and there should be no issues. However, if you are braking in a situation in which the toad does not line up with the MH there will be a lateral force on the rear axle of the MH.
If you are towing a 5,000 lb vehicle then the sideways force can be ~25% of the ~20,000 lb load on the rear axle. Will this be enough to "kick" the axle sideways and put you into a skid, who knows? As far as I am concerned, if I can spend ~$1000-1500 to reduce this risk, I will.
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..... Now a question or two....has anyone had a car breakaway, what happened and what caused it? Anyone have a tow bar problem while using a toad braking system? Anyone have a braking system malfunction in the toad and if so what happened?
I personally know of a few. One close friend lost his Jeep Wrangler. It went into the median and stopped. Another friend lost a Jeep Cherokee and it was totaled. No injuries in either case. Both were using safety chains that somehow came loose. Both were towbar failures but, without some work, I can't tell you what they were.
One short term friend I met in a campground was getting new toad brakes because his auxiliary brakes were constantly applied on a long trip. There was some heat damage too. I don't recall the brand of equipment.
Another failure was on our Subaru. The Roadmaster Falcon II system was installed by a high volume hitch shop near Seattle. A few years later and after a trip across the Cascades on Highway 410 near Mount Rainier, I found the base plate wiggled when I unhitched. I took the car back to the shop. I remember the mechanic saying, "S.O.B! I ain't never seen that s**t before!" One of the mounting bolts had pulled through the car's frame, or what would be a frame if it wasn't a unibody. Thinking I might be buying a new car, I asked what we should do. In technical terms he replied, "I'll weld 'er up so that f****r 'll never come loose!" He did and it didn't. We traded the car with 60,000 driven miles and 60,000 more towed miles.
I can't say for sure, but I remembered driving through a surprise dip on the highway that was sufficient to toss all the clothes in the closet off the rod. The towbar may have yanked on the base plate enough to pull the bolt through. Or, maybe the bolt had loosened and gradually worked through the frame.
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Leah,
If I go to jail I hope you do send me some flowers. I hear it is quite drab in there :-) Throw in some extra towels and some good reading material also.
Bill,
I'm glad that you brought up known failures and gave us some insight on your Subaru fail. It may have been that Locktite was not used as required by Blue Ox if someone was in too much of a hurry. Maybe the baseplate manufacturer in your case did not require that the mechanic use Locktite or he just forgot to tighten the bolt. You can imagine the movement of a loose mounting bolt with constant acceleration and decelaration on the road. I have also met several folks that have smoked the toad brakes having been applied and remained on while driving. It is another system with elecrtrical and mechanical devices...
Tom,
You bring up a good point that the emergency braking system could cause the back up safety cables or chains to fail and jettison the toad from the coach breaking the redundant safety system cables.
I'm not advocating that anyone not use a toad braking system just that the decision is a personal one based on your assessment of the risks involved. I know that some states would frown on my take on this but in my opinion I am not finding a strong case for improved safety having one of these extra systems installed on my coach and toad.
Later Ed
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This is a bit surprising to me when I checked the table in the link below,.... Many folks site the law as requiring that your toad be equipped with an active braking system when being towed. There seems to be little to no requirements by the states regarding brakes on toads, Two states Florida and Nevada have agressive weight restrictions, Florida at 3000lbs and Nevada at 1500lbs. When you read the statutes sited from the table in this summary it would appear to me that they are refering to weight limits on towed trailers. Some of those restrictions are waived for adequate brake performance at 20MPH. It looks like many states have much more agressive braking requirements when the towed load reaches 40% or more of the towing vehicles weight. I'm under 10%....
http://home.roadrunner.com/~morodat/toad-brakes-by-state.html
This is the section of the Nevada statute that applies to towing... Florida seems much like it...
5. Every trailer, semitrailer, house trailer and pole trailer equipped with air- or vacuum-actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, house trailer and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds, manufactured or assembled after July 1, 1969, must be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least 15 minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
6. Every trailer, semitrailer, house trailer or pole trailer of 3,000 pounds or more gross weight or equaling more than 40 percent of the towing vehicle, manufactured or assembled before July 1, 1975, must be equipped with brakes on at least two wheels.
7. Except as otherwise provided by law, every motor vehicle used to tow a trailer, semitrailer, house trailer or pole trailer equipped with brakes must be equipped with means for providing that, in case of breakaway of the towed vehicle, the towing vehicle will be capable of being stopped by the use of its service brakes.
I suppose you could stretch the intent of the law to include other things like cars but the law seems quite specific here. They expect trailers to have brakes and if the trailer breaks away that it does not by design disable the towing vehicle.
Anyone know someone who has been ticketed for not having an active breaking system on the toad and where it was?
Later Ed
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[face=Arial]Ed,
As you likely know, this topic generally spurs a lot of conversation that often leads to differences in interpretation or failure to look at definitions. Much of the interpretation centers on the fact that some states don’t specifically define or discuss vehicles being directly towed. My interpretation is that when a state does not specifically discuss a vehicle being towed on its own wheels outside of the temporary towing behind a wrecker, then the car is simply a trailer. Let’s look at Florida statute, given it was a state you referenced and the one I live in.
Here’s the actual Florida statute: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/316.261
Florida does not specifically spell out a car in tow, except as towed behind a wrecker. Therefore, we need to look at how FL defines a trailer. FL’s definition of a trailer would include a car being towed by a tow bar. Here’s the definition:
316.003 Definitions.—The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
( 58 ) TRAILER.—Any vehicle with or without motive power, other than a pole trailer, designed for carrying persons or property and for being drawn by a motor vehicle.
Florida’s brake requirements laws state a need for a braking system on a trailer over 3,000 pounds and those under 3,000 pounds under certain circumstances. In almost all cases, if not all cases, a towed vehicle (trailer) needs brakes activated by the towing vehicle. The statute further defines a requirement for break-away brakes. Here’s the reference:
316.261 Brake equipment required.—Every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer, and any combination of such vehicles, operating upon a highway within this state shall be equipped with brakes in compliance with the requirements of this chapter.
(1) SERVICE BRAKES; ADEQUACY.—Every such vehicle and combination of vehicles, except special mobile equipment not designed to carry persons, shall be equipped with service brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle under all conditions of loading, and on any grade incident to its operation.
(3) BRAKES ON ALL WHEELS.—Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:
(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding 3,000 pounds, provided that:
1. The total weight on and including the wheels of the trailer or trailers shall not exceed 40 percent of the gross weight of the towing vehicle when connected to the trailer or trailers; and
(4) AUTOMATIC TRAILER BRAKE APPLICATION UPON BREAKAWAY.—Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with air or vacuum-actuated brakes, every trailer and semitrailer with a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds, and every pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least 15 minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
Of course your decision is yours. BTW, a 4,000+ pound moving object is almost always more dangerous than one at rest. Sure someone may hit a stationary object and get the full affects of their car’s mass and speed. Regardless of whether you have a break-away system or not, a runaway car will at some point stop. A runaway car travelling at any speed hitting another car will always increase the damage and risk of death given it’s mass is in movement causing more impact force.
BTW, I have heard of tow bar failures, similiar to the one described where the tow bar brackets break off the towed vehicle. This is not as a result of loose bolts or tow bar failures, rather a failure of the unibody mounting locations. That's why I use Roadmaster brakets and tow bars. Specifically, I like the extrat lateral support provided by the tow bar's cross bar. Here's something to consider. Where's your safety chains/cables attached to your towed vehicle? Likily on the very tow brackets that MAY separate from the towed car.
Just my 2 cents and not looking to stir this one up too much,
Gil
2012 Explorer with Air Force One braking system[/face][size=14][/size]
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..... Anyone know someone who has been ticketed for not having an active breaking system on the toad and where it was?
In my 8 years of motorhoming, another 10 years owning two fifthwheels and reading RV forums as long as they have been around, I have never heard of it. I've also never seen a tow truck operator put a Brake Buddy in the towed car.
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Gil,
Our Blu-Ox system on our Ford Edge has a cross bar too. It seems to be a design philosophy difference between the two companies. One company makes it visible and the other hides it. Ours is located behind the grill. To install it, all of the sheet metal forward of the windshield had to be removed and replaced. It took the installer 6 hours!
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Bill,
The Roadmaster on my 2011 Jeep GC and 2012 Explorer has a frame attached cross member too. The Roadmaster also has a tow bar cross member. FWIW, I just viewed the connection methods and locations better on Roadmaster over Blue Ox for these two vehicle. Obviously, both companies do well and opinions will vary.
As for tow truck operators, they have some specific exemptions for braking systems on what they are towing. If they didn't they wouldn't be in business.
Gil
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Hmmm.... well if I don't know anyone that got a ticket for it then maybe I don't need a fire extinguisher in my rig as required by law either. And since I don't know any motorhome operator that ever had their fuel checked for taxed clear versus non-taxed dyed fuel, I could start using non-taxed fuel too. Anyone recall being pulled over to check if Lincolns head shows when checking the depth of tread on your tires? Because I haven't seen it doesn't seem like a convincing arguement to me.
I personally feel that having a toad brake system is a reasonable standard of care for myself and those driving near my vehicle. Whether the law requires it can be debated, if a serious accident occured it most likely would go to court and be decided there. I'd rather look the injured party in the eye and say that it was truly an accident and that I had taken all reasonable precautions, than debating whether the law required me to have toad brakes or not. I would have a hard time explaining why I thought that the law required a 3,000 pound travel trailer/fifth wheel/gravel trailer to have brakes, but my 3,000 pound car shouldn't. I just can't get my mind around that concept.
In the big scheme of things a $2,000 toad brake system isn't a make or break for me to go motorhoming. And toad brake systems can be obtained for much less than that. I prefer an air operated system which is more expensive but easier to hook up and use. That makes it much more likely that I will use it each and every time I tow.
However, I'm also of the opinion that each person needs to make their own decisions on what they are comfortable with. If you don't want a brake system then more power to you. Reasonable people can disagree.
Ken
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Gil,
Good find on the trailer defenition. It clearly includes a car in tow. I have been using the safety chain mounts on the tow receiver but I will look at an alternative to that based on this forum discussion. My Honda weighs 3120lbs so that would be illegal in Florida. The Mini that I am going to use is 2750lbs so I would still be legal there. I believe in a light tow if you can live with that. What I tow is near the 50% capacity rating of the weakest component. I was surprised that most states do not have any significant restrictions until you get to the 40% of the towing vehicle weight from the table in the reference. Basing the rules on the ratio of tow weight to trailer weight made sense to me but 40% seemed high to me in todays environment of RVs and heavy vehicles.
Living just across a bridge from Pensacola Florida I can understand the need for the law when I see some of the Yahoos in pick up trucks towing a total wreck of a trailer with bald tires, no lights, no brakes, no safety chains, clearly overloaded with a huge pile of rusty scrap metal, some of which hangs out into the adjacent lane, heading to the scrap metal dealer. Usually there is a cracked windshield involved also. Clearly there needs to be some law regarding things in tow. I just have never seen a sheriff pull one of these guys over. If you or I were in the truck towing that stuff we would probably be pulled over in a minute :-) I lived most of my life in VT and they are pretty strict up there with enforcement. It was a real eye-opener for us with the move to the south.
Thanks for the insight...
Later Ed
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I have been motorhoming for 35 years. Lost several trailers with cars on them, lost two toads because of broken tow bars and in all cases safety cables/chains held them from breaking away. In the case of one trailer (had electric brakes) with break-away, the seperate battery was dead and would not have done any good. The first 20 years of towing a car (4 wheels down), I did not use any braking systems in the toad. I do not think there were any marketed during that time (1980-2000). When I bought my first brake system, it was horrible.... The first unit did not work out of the box. The second unit compressor just kept running. The third unit locked up the toad brakes several times, then I stopped using any type of supplemental braking system. I have never heard about anyone being ticketed or cited for not having supplemental brakes on a toad, either during normal operations or in the case of an accident. In Florida, we have routine check points all the time with both FHP and DOT inspectors. This issue has never been addressed or inspected for in my experiences.
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Ken,
I don't play with matches (anymore) and I'm a firm believer in fire extinguishers....
Now this guy that we met last summer looked like he was in his own wagon train when he pulled in next to us. He lived in his RV and the closed up Vanagon was loaded so full of all his belongings that you could not see the floor anywhere in the vehicle. What caught my attention was the large cyclinder full of propane between the front seats. No room for any toad brakes here. He had been traveling by "wagon train" for the last 10 years and loved it. I'm not sure he had a fire extuingusher but even if he did he could never find it.....And yes he also did smoke. The wire that goes up over the Vanagon windshield heads for the final trailer in his wagon train.
I'm guessing at some point in the future he will be a Darwin Award recipient and very proud of it... what a country.
Actually I'm feeling pretty safe with my big Beaver Coach and little Toad set up for now....
Later Ed
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Wow... Great picture to share with us. I also have seen this double tow situation. Generally, it has been a 5th wheel and boat behind. I will confess that I did this for many years. My 1977 31' Wanderlodge, pulling a jeep CJ with golf cart in trailer behind.... No brakes on anything but the motorhome. Bad me!!!!!! BTW, many of us witnessed at an Eastern Homecoming in Orlanda a 40' Safari Class A pulling a Safari 28' Class C pulling a small car. I know of a person in Georgia that was pulled over and ticketed for the double tow situation.
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A full propane cylinder isn't that much of a hazard. It's the ones that aren't full that firemen want to know about, for good reason.
Tow trucks don't need auxilliary braking because they aren't towing 4 down.
Triple towing is allowed in the following 28 states:
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maryland
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Mexico
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Of course, nothing is ever straightforward and simple though.
Many of these states have a variety of restrictions which could still hamper your ability to tow two trailers.
For example, some states limit total length of all 3 units to 65 feet. In some instances, the limit is 70 feet or 75 feet total length.
In some states, triple towing is restricted to adding the second trailer only behind a 5th wheel trailer.
Many states limit the second trailer to recreational equipment, such as a boat, snowmobile, or ATV 4-wheelers.
In California you even need a special endorsement on your drivers license to tow any trailer over 10,000 lbs or to drive a motorhome that is over 40 feet in length.
Rules For Commercial Trucks vs Recreational Vehicles:
As far as state DMVs go, the world of recreational vehicles and the world of commercial trucking are 2 separate entities.
Some states allow "double bottom," "triple," or however you wish to label a situation where you have 2 trailers hooked behind one tow vehicle in the commercial truck classifications. But, you must realize that that these rules may not cross over to the recreational vehicle world.
Commercial triples are set up such that the air brake system continues on through all 3 pieces. The second trailer rides on a 5th wheel dolly, not a 2-inch chrome ball purchased at the local hardware store. Therefore, when commercial trucks apply the brakes, all wheels will apply at the same time with equal pressure.
On the other hand, recreational vehicles may have air brakes on the motorhome, electric brakes on the first trailer, and in many cases no brakes at all on the third item being towed.
To that end, the federal D.O.T. doesn’t want any part of regulating non-commercial situations. So, they leave it completely up to each state to set their own limitations. Just remember, seeing a semi truck pulling 2 trailers on or near an interstate highway does NOT mean you’re good to go with more than one trailer.
Information pertaining to trailer towing rules and regulations for all states: Woodall’s Rules of the Road * http://www.woodalls.com/articledetails.aspx?articleID=1195129
*taken from an article in The Fun Times Guide .com
-Joel
PS- interesting note that the Canadian mountain provinces of BC and Alberta will allow brakeless toads under circumstances that fit most of our configurations.
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Forgot to mention on the Eastern Homecoming story... We asked the guy driving the motorhome, why are you pulling an RV? He said that was for his wife..... That should start a new thread.
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Two of the most extreme triple tows I have seen are: a Toter, huge fifth wheel, tow dolly and a Cadalic on it (maybe quad tow) and a 45 prevost with a 35 foot high boy trailer and a car on the the back of the trailer. Both in FL.
It may be legal in FL now as we see a lot of semis with the double trailers.
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I have an acquaintance from camp hosting in a state park that is a retired Arizona cop. He and his wife live in a fifthwheel that's about 40 feet. He tows it with a Volvo tractor that he says cost him less than a pickup. Behind the fifthwheel he tows a Jeep Cherokee, that does not have aux brakes. Between the truck cab and front of the fifthwheel he has a motorcycle. Even though his home used to be Arizona, he licenses everything in a dummy corporation in Montana. He tows double everywhere. He argues that Montana drivers have reciprocal privileges anywhere they go. He maintains he has never been pulled over but has knowledge, skills and paperwork to stop any cop from giving him a ticket. He has a buddy that shows up once in awhile that does the same thing. You don't dare asking either of them a question about it because they won't stop teaching you how smart they are until you agree 100%!
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We too have the Roadmaster Breakmaster system and have been very pleased with it. We have used it now for about 5 years with no problems. Had Roadmaster install it at thier plant. That way we know it was done right. Now something to consider is the new Roadmaster "Invis-a-brake". It sounds to be everybit as good as brakemaster, and a few less steps when hitting the road. Just something to consider.
Bill Brown
06 Monterey, Laguna IV
toad 02 GMC Envoy
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I've been reading this thread and thinking about it quite a bit. I have the Roadmaster Even Brake system that i bought with the Roadmaster Falcon All Terrain tow bar. It worked OK until the MH dash monitor malfunctioned after which I stopped using it. The dash monitor is simply a wireless monitor for the system and, although the brake system will work without it, I don't have a lot of confidence it it simply because I have not idea how much braking force is being applied. The monitor will display a "brake applied" message but the MH is so heavy and the toad is only about 11.75% of the weight.....I can't feel it. On my TT there was no doubt about the braking force as the relative weights were reversed.
Yesterday, I looked over the toad and MH trying to visualize failure mechanisms and the consequences of each.
Reciever: it's welded directly to the MH sub-frame and is rated for 5,000 lbs. There is no compressive loads of any consequence yet I recall while I was at the Bend facility last year I say a couple laying on the floor pretty bent up. If the receiver fails and becomes disconnected, no break-a-way or safety chains will keep the toad from taking it's own path and not stopping until it runs out of steam. I can see one potential problem here where the toad is 4,000 lbs and the wheels lock up due to the braking system it could easily overload the 5k receiver rating and possible pull it right off the MH.
Hitch: Seems to be a pretty unlikely failure item as, once again there is no hitch wt to speak of.
Tow bar: Tough to see a catastrophic failure here as it's pretty stout and even if one arm would fail, the toad would still be attached even though it wouldn't follow very well. Still, a good inspection of the pivot points should be performed.
Base plates: Two separate plates each well attached to the toad frame with three 5/8" grade 8 bolts. As long as they are routinely inspect, should be fine.
Jackknifing of the toad; Pretty much impossible without the rear end going into a skid. That would take such a radical maneuver the MH is probably already wrecked.
Toad pushing the MH laterally: Again, unless the toad radically departed straight flight, seems to be improbable. Even if the toad was at 45 degrees to the MH the front wheels would still be aligned in the direction of travel and, without them losing traction, will bear the brunt of the force.
I'm still twixt and tween on this whole subject. I will get a new dash monitor before out summer sojurn but will continue to set the braking system very concervitely. I don't see a need fot the toad brakes to be applied unless I'm braking very hard.
Overall, a good thought provocing thread
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He argues that Montana drivers have reciprocal privileges anywhere they go.
I would proffer that receprocity extends to the licensing and vehicle operation of the driver, not necessarily to the configuration of the vehicular composition he's piloting. We had relatives in Idaho that years ago triple towed everywhere there, but wouldn't cross into Oregon that way. When I ran the shipping dock at Fred Meyer's general merchandise warehouse, we had just bought a chain of stores in Utah and elsewhere. We had to configure trailers for those new stores by setting up doubles in Clackamas (OR) that were taken to (I believe) Pocatello or vicinity, where they were tripled together for the rest of the haul.
Now I believe you can ship commercial triples in Oregon with proper but stipulative licensing, and you are restricted to Federal Interstates and only other highways to the extent you can access your terminals. Noncommercial triple setups are strictly prohibited and in certain state portals vehemently enforced, retired cop or not. As a general rule, except for Maryland, virtually all of the east coast and Hawaii, Washington, and Oregon do not allow private triples; the rest of the West (and Alaska) and everywhere in between it's unrestricted.
Joel
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Bill, he's wrong as Joel pointed out. Maximum number of trailers and maximum length and some other restrictions are set by the state and apply to anyone using their roads, regardless of where they are tagged. However, he will no doubt leverage "professional courtesy" he he's ever stopped. BTW, unless he did substantial work on the trailer's frame, he's driving an accident just waiting for the Jeep to break away.
Gil
I have an acquaintance from camp hosting in a state park that is a retired Arizona cop. He and his wife live in a fifthwheel that's about 40 feet. He tows it with a Volvo tractor that he says cost him less than a pickup. Behind the fifthwheel he tows a Jeep Cherokee, that does not have aux brakes. Between the truck cab and front of the fifthwheel he has a motorcycle. Even though his home used to be Arizona, he licenses everything in a dummy corporation in Montana. He tows double everywhere. He argues that Montana drivers have reciprocal privileges anywhere they go. He maintains he has never been pulled over but has knowledge, skills and paperwork to stop any cop from giving him a ticket. He has a buddy that shows up once in awhile that does the same thing. You don't dare asking either of them a question about it because they won't stop teaching you how smart they are until you agree 100%!
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I know he's wrong. But, he was compelled to be right. And, it did break away last year. The Jeep was totaled. Nobody was hurt and I don't know which part failed.
He also keeps a loaded pistol in a "waist pack" that looks like it came from LL Bean to keep your water bottle in. If he unzips it, you can see that it is 100% a holster. I chose to limit conversations with him.
I will see him soon and maybe will learn more about "RV Doubles".
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Here's Roadmaster's response to a note I sent regarding Forum members' lack of trust as to the amount of toad braking being applied. Admittedly I was a tad disappointed because I'd hoped they might provide some sort of testing data, but they only reiterated product promotional information i've read repeatedly before. That aside, my experience with their Brakemaster is all positive, and I have found no reason to disbelieve, knowing the product design, that the degree of pressure I apply on the coach brake pedal translates equally to the toad's.
-Joel,
"I do apologize, but I can't comment on any of the competitors supplemental braking systems out there, but I can tell you that the Brakemaster braking system, is a true proportionate braking system. What ever pressure is applied to the motor home brakes, the same pressure is applied to the towed vehicle brake pedal. When the Brake away is engaged the brakes on the towed will apply for up to 30 seconds, then disengage, giving the user enough time to pull over safely. Hope this helps, have a great day."
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Benny Asanoma
Technical Support
Roadmaster, Inc.
800-669-9690 ext. 157
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Within a very short period the auto vacuum assist is depleted, probably during the first pedal application. I do wonder how much real toad braking there is with moderate pressure applied to the toad brake pedal with vacuum assist no longer available. May be worth at test with one of these 5000lb toads to shut down the engine while traveling at moderate speed on a straight away and see how fast you stop with what would be expected to be a proportional amount of moderate brake pedal pressure. Maybe in reality the coach is handling 90% of the toad braking anyway unless maybe a vacuum pump is constantly running or cycling to allow the brake vacuum assist to work, Do your units have vacuum pumps? How do you actually calibrate the proportional assist?
Later Ed
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Until this topic came up here, I had given up thinking about it several years ago when I did a lot of thinking, reading and talking on the subject.
One of the things I read then was that automotive standards or practice require you to be able to steer and stop your car if the motor quits. So, I thought I should try it. It seemed logical because in Naval flight training the syllabus included knowing how to fly if the flight control boost system quit. I pointed the Subaru down hill on a section of I-5 south of Tacoma and turned the switch off. The steering got stiff and I had to push hard on the brake pedal to cause much deceleration. Although I didn't try it, a panic stop seemed out of the question.
While we were towing the Subaru we were also going to a lot of big rallies. I talked to everyone selling brake systems. When I asked about how hard their system pushes on a "dead pedal" the answers were either that it is user adjustable or it was designed to push the "right amount". One suggestion was that there is a "standard" that 70 pounds of force on a "dead pedal" would create the same deceleration rate on all vehicles allowed to be sold in the USA, regardless of their weight or brake design. I failed to find where that is written down.
I came to the conclusion that there was a lot of design and salesmanship with little real engineering or science in these systems. None seem to be reviewed or tested by any agency or association. Unlike our cars or motorhomes there are no design standards. There seems to be only creativity.
I also came to the conclusion that the only way you could ever "calibrate the proportional assist" would be to put a strain gauge in the motorhome receiver. With that you could determine if, during braking, the car was pushing too much or pulling too much during braking. Pushing would mean the toad brakes were not doing enough and pulling would mean the toad brakes are trying to stop the motorhome. I have not seen such a strain gauge for sale anywhere.
There are so many variables, that without such a gauge and measurement, there is no way to know if the "assist" is appropriate. And, and how could you know if the setting would get the assist correct for "normal", "aggressive" and "panic" deceleration rates.
As I posted earlier, I finally bought one when we bought a heavier car. I picked it because I thought it was the most simple system available. It has no settings and I have no idea if it pushes correctly on the pedal, if it is matched to Ford's version of a dead pedal or if it is matched to the weight of the car.
On edit, I would like to add that I have chosen to have one because I believe it is a better idea than to not have one. The intention of my "rant" is to express my frustration that none of these things provide a way to indicate their effectiveness or reliability. For example, I pulled the breakaway pin once and nothing happened. The next time, it applied the car brakes, but I have no idea if the force applied would stop the car or only slow it down a little.
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I have been reading this thread with interest and think about entering a comment.
I use a Roadmaster All Terrian tow bar and baseplates that I installed myself. I also use the Roadmaster Brakemaster braking system.
I would like to relay a inicident that I witnessed in the rear view mirror of the car I was driving at the time. About 20+ years ago I was traveling south on a farily major road in Calgary and just passed a gravel truck towing an empty 16' flat bed trailer and as passing noticed that his hitch was pulling off of the truck frame. about 2 miles further down the road I saw his trailer traveling accross the next lane no longer in the control of the truck. The trailer then jumped the curb and enter the median between the north and south bound lanes of traffic. As the traveled through the median the tongue of the trailer was throwing dirt in all directions like the snow would be thrown from a snow plow. It also hit a couple of street lamp standards as it traveled through the median shearing them off and tossing them through the air like match sticks.
The trailer then crossed both lanes of North bound traffic with out hitting anything and into the ditch which was quite flat. About 50or more feet from the edge roadway was a chain link fence which is what stopped this trailers travels but not until it had pulled out about 200 feet of fence.
Don't know if the truck drive even knew he lost his trailer as it was sitting beside me at the next traffic light.
Just something else to think about.
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Here's a couple of examples of how break-away brakes saved the day.
I was towing an empty car trailer. After crossing a railroad crossing the trailer came off the hitch. The trailer's tongue was clearly visible through the back window of my Explorer. I didn't immediately brake, but rather allowed the trailer's break-away system to apply trailer brakes. The trailer's tongue hit the pavement and bounced while still attached to my Explorer by the safety chains. The trailer came to safe and uneventful stop under my vehicle. Without a break-away system I'm confident it would have went through the rear gate of the Explorer.
While driving across the Chesapeake Bay bridge, I was following a 1 ton truck pulling a small cement mixer. As he came onto the center span of the bridge he began to throw up some rocks. I moved to his left placing me in the far left lane. No sooner did I change lanes the cement mixer separated from its tow. It darted into my lane with its brakes applied. It hit the bridge's side rail and bounched back onto the road and stopped in the lane to my right. Had it's brakes not worked there's no telling what damage and injuries may have resulted on this highly travelled bridge.
As I've said before, I have a brake system on my TOAD more for the break-away system than anything else. FWIW, the Air Force One brake system does not push on a dead pedal. It has an air resevoir on the towed car to support braking and to supply vacum to the power brake booster.
Gil
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We are about to begin our 1st "real" trip in a few weeks and this is the 1st time we'll have a toad (always carried the Harley in the past). I've been reading and considering the varying points of view on this thread attempting to reach some decision on what (if any) breaking system we will use.
Dick s: Thanks for your anaylis of the components and their likely failure possibilities. That helped me put things in perspective.
Joel W: I tend to agree with the KISS priniciple and like the surge brakes with simple cable mechanism. This would be themost likely way I'd go, except for the lack of breakaway prevention. As I tend to agree with Dick, that the odds of that happening on a reguarly inspected tow setup are within (my) acceptable limits - I may still go this route.
It is interesting to me to find that the few states (like Florida) where we happen to reside require breaks on towed vehicles when states that have real mountains like CO, MT, etc do not. Add to this the insanity of the triple tows you see here in FL on a daily basis, including cars being towed by ropes on the interstate and you have to wonder if there is any intelligence in this state.
We have yet to hook up the Grand Cherokee, but when it is delivered I will take it out for some test tows to deterime the effect on my PT's acceleration and braking.
I'm not sure what some of you refer to as a "Panic stop" as most times a car cuts in front of me and then slams on their breaks pretty much qualifies as panic to me. I try to mainain a minimum of 3 car lenghts (approx 60') per 10 mph of my coach velocity. Anyone that disturbs my buffer zone make me get uneasy as this 32,000 lb sled does not stop worth a damn compared to a passenger vehicle.
The GC weighs 5400 lbs so it does represent about 17% additional mass to stop. Will this be a linear breaking addative, meaning I will need 17% more distance to stop? I'm not sure what the stopping rate is. Perhaps I should go out to one of the old abandoned lots and test this. Hmm, I may do just that.
Another point that concerns me about the various systems out there was well put in an earlier post that talked about the lack of precise, engineering type information on exactly how much pressure (stopping power) these various systems acutally provide. I've read about every web page I could find on the subject and not one manufacturer provides any specific data in this area. While they all discuss the merits of their special, proprietary technology - none tell you they will provide ???? pounds of force, or ???% stopping power, etc.
In the end, I guess each system works to some extent and each has it's inherant weaknesses. Reading the ongoing discussions and real life experiances - That's what makes this forum so valuable. At this point, I think we may tow here in flatland for a bit and then decide a few hundred miles down the road if we need to address suplemental breaking.
J
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I've made the decision to replace my Even Brake system with a Ready Brake which is now on order. The simplicity off the ready brake and what appears to be an easy install appeals to my engineering side. It appears to be on of those things what will just work....no frill just works. Surge brakes have been around for decades and are truly proportional and better yet, automatically takes into account the weight of the toad. Plus a failure where the toad brakes are applied inadvertently is most unlikely.
As for the brake-a-way option, I'm looking at that but don't like the way it functions very much and am not convinced in the necessity. Once the Ready Brake gets here and is installed, I'll rethink this but a failure of the towing assy plus breaking both safety cables is tough to visualize.
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Joel/Dick,
Have you considered the load on the firewall? Is there a backing plate to distribute the force so the fitting won't pull through?
J