BAC Forum

General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Stan Simpson on October 29, 2019, 01:55:26 AM

Title: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 29, 2019, 01:55:26 AM
I have power bay doors. In 7-1/2 years, I have only used the key fob to unlock the doors. In the past, using the lock function on the key fob locked the entry door, and all bay doors at the same time. I could use the fob to unlock all of the bay doors at once, even if the entry door was locked or unlocked.

Today, I went out to put something in a forward bay, and when I clicked on the fob, the only bay doors that unlocked were 1) the little door behind the rear curbside tires, just before the battery bay and 2) the door for the power cord reel on the other side. None of the other bays will unlock. I tried several scenarios, none worked. I don't hear the usual click on any of the doors that don't unlock, indicating the plunger is working. 

In the entire time we've had the coach, I've never used the keys. So, I tried them. The only keys I have other than the ignition, fuel doors, and engine compartment are Tri-Mark 225, Tri-Mark 853, and Tri-Mark 211. None of them will unlock the bay doors. I think the TM853 is for the front door. I think the TM211 is for our previous coach. I have no idea what the TM225 is for.

Does the door system have a fuse somewhere? I don't have a wiring schematic for my coach, and if I did, I have no idea how to read it. I'm thinking of taking the cover off the mechanism of one of the doors which is locked, but not latched at the moment, to see if it is getting current.

My key-less entry has never locked or unlocked bay doors. It still works for locking and unlocking the entry door.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 29, 2019, 03:34:24 AM
Stan,
Check your battery voltage. Low voltage could make the individual locks react differently.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Chuck Jackson on October 29, 2019, 04:11:12 AM
Like Steve, I think this may be a voltage issue. I had a similar problem and for me it was the relay. I just swapped out another relay to test and that was the problem. In your case, you may be getting some voltage to the locks and for a few of them, it is enough to unlock but not others.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 29, 2019, 04:16:44 AM
I'm plugged in to my house current, and the inverter charger shows my batteries on "float". I just recently checked the water in the house batteries and all were fine. Tomorrow, I will put a meter on the house batteries.

Chuck, when you say it was a relay, do you mean one of the re-settable breakers in the electrical bay? Or is there a relay somewhere else?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Chuck Jackson on October 29, 2019, 04:39:35 AM
I'm plugged in to my house current, and the inverter charger shows my batteries on "float". I just recently checked the water in the house batteries and all were fine. Tomorrow, I will put a meter on the house batteries.

Chuck, when you say it was a relay, do you mean one of the re-settable breakers in the electrical bay? Or is there a relay somewhere else?
.

This is similar to my relays. They are in the electrical bay near the driver along the bottom of the bay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-CB1-12V-ACB13201-Electromechanical-Relay-4-Pin/113856739160?epid=668648373&hash=item1a8263f758:g:qZ4AAOSwTO5dV-57
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on October 29, 2019, 08:01:13 AM
The TM211 is bay doors on our similar coach.  Try it on one of the 2 open doors to see if the latch locks and unlocks.  Regardless of the electronics, the key should work to unlock the others if it’s the same # as ours.

How long since you put batteries in that fob?  And did you try the second fob (that comes with new vehicles), if the dealer or p.o. gave it to you?

If your coach bats are floating at 13.3+ volts, Chuck’s relay sounds like a plausible culprit causing too much resistance to allow the current necessary to work all 7 or more locks at once, or a loose ground connector.

Joel
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on October 29, 2019, 11:04:10 AM
If you look closely at the compartment door handle, where the key goes in, there is a number stamped on it which will match the number on the key. Mine is a TM211 too.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on October 29, 2019, 04:34:57 PM
For some reason, all the door lock actuators on my '05 PT 'overextended' and jammed, all at once. I couldn't open any compartment door. Luckly, the wet bay door was open at the time, so I pulled off the cover over the door latch to see what I was up against. Short story; Mechanic at BCS used a long screwdriver, routed up from the bottom, to unlock the doors. All door plungers were replaced, and all works now. Your keyless entry keypad, try your door unlock code to open, then quickly press 9 to unlock baggage doors. That's how ours works, anyway. Good luck, frustrating!!
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 29, 2019, 05:12:32 PM
Stan,
K21 on the right side of the front elec bay activates the bay locks.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 29, 2019, 07:54:26 PM
If you look closely at the compartment door handle, where the key goes in, there is a number stamped on it which will match the number on the key. Mine is a TM211 too.

Mike, here is a picture of one of my keys. TM211. It will not unlock the doors. In a couple of them, I got it to turn a little, but not enough to unlock.

Stan,
K21 on the right side of the front elec bay activates the bay locks.
Steve

Therein lies the quandary, Steve.  :(  K21 is behind a locked door that I can't open. So are my meters, tools, etc. in another bay.

Going to try Bill's suggestion next.


Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 29, 2019, 08:36:29 PM
Stan,
My memory might not be correct, but I seem to remember that the entry door key also unlocked the bays. Also, maybe it's only on the 07+ units but the bay and entry door key has teeth on both sides.
As Mike noted, doesn't any of your locks have a label etched into them?
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 29, 2019, 08:57:46 PM
Steve,
I don't have any keys, in either of my two sets, that have teeth on both sides. The bay door locks all have TM211 etched on the cylinder.

As for lack of voltage. Here are pictures of my Aladdin readings, and the Inverter/Charger remote readings, from a few minutes ago. I can't get in to the bay where my tool boxes are, so I'm unable to check voltage at the batteries. Going to have to make a run to the hardware store for a new meter.

Also, I tried Bill Lampkin's suggestion to punch in the entry door code, and then hit 9. Nada.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 29, 2019, 09:43:59 PM
Stan,
Voltage is OK. Have you tried turning the ignition on and then off? That will normally lock and unlock the bay doors without the FOB or key.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on October 29, 2019, 09:55:00 PM
Stan, Once the actuators over extend, they jam the key cylinder so you can't turn the key. If jammed, the keypad or fob won't have any effect, as the actuators cannot retract to unlock. When I went to check K21 relay, the wires in the spade terminals pulled right out-now that adds another dimension to the whole mess. Had to put on new terminals and crimp. Relay was fine.  Tip: lock-unlock is via a pulse, not constant voltage. To open, one terminal on the actuator is (+) for a moment. To lock, the polarity changes to (-) on that wire. Tough to pin it on electrical. My guess is your problem is mechanical (jammed actuators).
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on October 29, 2019, 10:14:43 PM
Stan, I keep most of my tools in the small bay behind the curbside wheels because, at least on my coach, that bay is not on the electric latch circuit.  I need to use a key only.  That is fortunate because a toolbox fits nicely in there along with other air and chassis service and road emergency equipment.  Even if the electrics are out of commission I can still get at my tools.  My voltmeter (and a few other commonly used tools for inside problems) is safe and dry stored in a living area drawer.

Joel
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 12:38:58 AM
Here is a picture of the door mechanism on the one door that I can open. I winterized the coach a couple of days ago. That door is to the water bay. I had it open and forgot to latch it when I locked up for the night. Its locked, but it was never latched closed.

Does anything in the picture look out of place, or broken?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Fred Brooks on October 30, 2019, 01:11:00 AM
   Manually slide the solenoid plunger and see if it moves and unlocks the compartment outside handle. Fred
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 02:11:47 AM
   Manually slide the solenoid plunger and see if it moves and unlocks the compartment outside handle. Fred

I have no idea what the solenoid plunger is, or what it looks like. Help?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 30, 2019, 02:17:14 AM
Stan,
There are probably 2 wires going to the solenoid, either a white and dark blue or a light and dark blue. The white or light blue is ground and the dark blue supplies the 12v pulse to activate the solenoid. Verify the gnd with a meter and that there is no voltage measured across the 2 wires. I think if you touch 12v to the dark blue wire, it should unlock the other bay solenoids.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 02:34:07 AM
Stan,
There are probably 2 wires going to the solenoid, either a white and dark blue or a light and dark blue. The white or light blue is ground and the dark blue supplies the 12v pulse to activate the solenoid. Verify the gnd with a meter and that there is no voltage measured across the 2 wires. I think if you touch 12v to the dark blue wire, it should unlock the other bay solenoids.
Steve

Steve, I re-posted the picture of the door mechanism below, with some questions on it. Appreciate if someone can answer. Thanks.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 30, 2019, 03:29:20 AM
The solenoid is what you are pointing at (black body that wires go into). The plunger is the rod that comes out of the end (left side in photo) and activates the mechanical latch/unlock mechanism. It looks like you've got 2 blue wires  feeding the solenoid. Look at where the wires come in to the door itself. There should be a connector where you can see 2 different color wires. This is where you want to apply the 12v to the dark blue wire. Don't worry about not having the wet bay door hooked up when you do this.
I'd like FRED BROOKS to validate my idea before you try it though as he probably has more experience with these doors than I do.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on October 30, 2019, 04:02:53 AM
Actually not a solenoid, but a motor that uses a rack and pinion mechanism to extend (lock) and retract (unlock) the door latch. Only two wires, as the motor runs in reverse when polarity changes via K21 relay.

Your plunger looks to be overextended. See if the bent nail linkage is loose or worn, as if the linkage gets out of alignment, that will lead to the plunger being overextended and door not opening.

Photo is of repair to my coach by BCS a year ago. Replaced 'shotgun' style actuators with new actuators and the mechanic went to some trouble to improve the linkage, using a small black ty-wrap to secure the one-way washer on the bent nail linkage, the cause of the linkage issue, according to him.

Yes, I got down into the weeds with the door latch as I had to replace a couple of lock cylinders when my key (TM211) would almost unlock the compartment latch. They make keys out of soft brass so they will break (in the lock cylinder) before you break the lock linkage. TM still has keys, lock cylinders (keyed to 211) and actuators. They no longer make the 'shotgun' style. although they are still available from other vendors.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on October 30, 2019, 11:11:23 AM
I just replaced two actuators (TriMark brand/style) and had to do the mounting mod (the metal strap/bracket in your photo) as you did - as they don't have the same bolt pattern as the originals.
However I found that NW RV Supply has the original "gun style" now. I bought two more. I don't like modifying if I don't have to. http://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/L19062-01.html

I noticed that the replacement actuators have a funny behavior (I don't know if the originals do too) when they extend to lock the door, after a full extension they retract some (like there is a spring inside). So they go out into lock position then come back in some (unlocking or almost to unlock)). This made it hard to get an adjustment. when I get the coach back from body shop, I will replace the two new actuators with the ones (gun style) I just got.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Fred Brooks on October 30, 2019, 01:49:54 PM
    Stan, As Steve suggested, trace the wires from the actuator motor or solenoid to the supply wiring. (there should be wires going to the compartment door) If you can unplug that harness, You will need to momentarily apply 12 volts to the 2 wires going to the door. Don't worry about which wires you apply the 12volts to as the polarity will make it actuate in one direction and then reverse the 2 wires and momentarily touch the actuator again and it should move in the opposite direction. I use my Bosch cordless screw gun battery which is 12 volts. I made a jumper wires with 2 alligator clips that I can plug into the battery and test stuff that requires 12 volts to trouble shoot. I'll take a picture and re-post. Mike, the original actuators do "rebound" a little after actuation. Can't tell you why other than it is engineered that way. It Is a hassle to adjust "just right" as you state. Fred
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 03:10:57 PM
Fred, and Steve:

Ok, I understand you want me to put 12V to the two wires shown in the picture. At the same time? I will have to take a battery out of my car, and use it to supply the voltage? The water bay door, which is open, but not unlocked is on the opposite side of the coach from the battery bay. If I have long enough jumpers, can I use that power?

Thank you Bill Lampkin for that explanation. Mike Shumack, I think the two doors, in the rear of the coach, have replaced motors/solenoids and they may be the new style. I cannot fathom how they are getting power to operate however.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 30, 2019, 05:23:45 PM
Stan,
I wouldn't do it. First, it will only verify the actuator on the wet bay works. That's not your problem. If you do it anyway, I would not use the car battery unless you insert a 2a fuse in the line. Too much current available if you accidently touch something that has a path to ground. Also, be sure to have the actuator connector disconnected and only apply the voltage to the wires going to the actuator. DO NOT apply voltage to the wires coming from the coach body as one of them connected to ground at the K21 relay. I forgot about that when I originally suggested the idea. Sorry.

Some other musings;
1. We are operating on the assumption that, like Bill's coach, the actuators on all the impacted bay doors jammed for some unknown reason and will not open even with a key (and we are also assuming you have correct key).

2. Mike noted that there should be a key code on the locks. Is there one and if so, what is it?

3. Voltage for the keyless entry comes from the chassis batteries, not the house batteries. If your Big Boy relay isn't working, the chassis batteries could be low and the Aladdin / Inverter readings only show house battery voltage. Try starting the coach to ensure the chassis batteries are also charged. This will also send a lock signal to the bays on key on and an unlock signal on key off. It will take the FOB out of the picture.

4. Did you replace the battery in the FOB?

5. IMHO, if you have the correct key and the doors don't release after starting and shutting down the coach, the "long screwdriver" approach that Bill mentioned is about the only solution.

Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 06:09:09 PM
Steve,
If you look at my prior posts, you will see that I posted a picture of the TM211 key, and said that there is an etched TM211 on the lock cylinders visible on the door handle. Last night, I went out and started the coach. I have never had to use the battery boost. The engine starts right up, so I assume the chassis batteries are fine. I will put a meter on them today. I also assume, could be wrong, that starting the coach and letting it idle for a bit, then turning it off, is the same as turning the ignition on and off to "bypass" the fob as you mention. The locks did not unlock when I did that. In all my years of ownership, I have never known the bay doors to unlock when I turned off the ignition.

Do you think it would be helpful for me to re-set the key-less entry code? The suggestion to punch in the code, and then hit '9' didn't work either. It is mentioned in my owner's manual as well.

I'm reluctant to do the "long screwdriver" method because I don't want to damage anything. Do you think a locksmith could get in to my electrical bay? That is the door that has K21 behind it, so it is the only one I think I need open for now.

Thank you for mentoring me on this problem...everyone.
Stan

Edit: Looking at the picture of my door mechanism above, (keep in mind its upside down because the door is raised) where should I try to probe with a "long screwdriver" to try to get the electrical bay door open?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 30, 2019, 08:41:29 PM
Stan,
Sorry re the key code. I missed it in your post. Resetting the code is a possibility but before I did that I'd try to verify if the current code is working.  To do this, on the wet bay door unplug the connector to the door actuator. Then set your meter to DC volts and hook the probes to the 2 pins on the connector coming from the coach body. Polarity shouldn't make any difference if you are using a digital readout meter. Now use your key FOB and press the button a few times. You should see the meter reading change. If so, the existing code is working. If not, either the code is bad or there is an electrical problem.
To get the bay doors open, I believe you have to get the  latches on each side of the door to release. Use the long screwdriver to push the latches back so they release from the bracket. You'll need to do each side separately and pull out on the door bottom once the latch clears the bracket to keep it from re-latching. Then you can release that corner of the door as the latch should clear the bracket.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on October 30, 2019, 09:19:22 PM

I'm reluctant to do the "long screwdriver" method because I don't want to damage anything. Do you think a locksmith could get in to my electrical bay? That is the door that has K21 behind it, so it is the only one I think I need open for now.


If all the bay doors are not unlocking, then I would be looking for an electrical issue - something common to all the doors, like a relay, broken wire, or unlock code that got erased (and not trying to force one door open just yet).

If the problem is that you don't have a "physical key" to open a door with - then a locksmith can probably pick the lock.

I saw the post about the lock mechanism over-extending, but how likely is it that all the door locks have overextended? I think you have the wrong key if you cant get any door to unlock with a key.

I don't see how you can force a door open without bending or scratching something.
 
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on October 30, 2019, 10:06:25 PM
The long screwdriver is used to move the door latch, the white plastic thing that actually keeps the door closed.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on October 30, 2019, 10:12:06 PM
Mike,
As Bill and I said, you have to get at the latches. Requires one lays down on back and using a flashlight in one hand for light and other hand on screwdriver to push the latch back and the pullout on the door slightly. No damage to the door will occur.
The problem may well be electrical but until the elec bay  door is open it can't be verified or troubleshot.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on October 30, 2019, 10:24:45 PM
The long screwdriver is used to move the door latch, the white plastic thing that actually keeps the door closed.

Bill,
The wet bay door is open. However its locked. I can push on the white nylon/plastic latch and pull up on the door handle, and nothing happens. The door handle is locked. Do I need to do both sides at once?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on October 30, 2019, 11:38:30 PM
See if you can move the actuator plunger in by hand, that should unlock the door latch, handle, door striker and everything else (key should now work). You can see the latch is connected via the aluminum rods that go to each side of the door. They pull on the latch so you can open the door. The key lock and actuator plunger will rotate a little cam like plate that once rotated, will allow your door to unlock. The important thing is whether or not you can move that actuator plunger by hand (try a pair of channel lock pliers if you can't grip the plunger shaft). Once you move the plunger, you can see how the whole she-bang works. I removed the wet bay latch, handle and all, to figure it out. Lots of little parts that have to go together the same way that they fell out onto the dirt when you try to take the thing apart. Took some cogitating, but I got it down, finally.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Dan Murphy on October 31, 2019, 01:21:17 PM
I have a double sided key that opens the bay doors and it is a Try-mark key marked KS-101
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 02, 2019, 03:25:09 AM
Update: I have tried every suggestion listed above. The shaft on the plunger will not move. Looking at the mechanism, its easy to see how it works. I have a locksmith coming Monday to open the electrical bay door, and then I will check the K21 breaker. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 02, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
Stan, For whatever reason, your door lock actuators overextended; That's what happened to mine. You can disconnect the actuator from the lock mechanism and then you can use the key to lock-unlock the bay door. The long screwdriver will work to get your doors open. Your best bet is to just replace all actuators with new, mine work fine now. No electrical problem was found. The mechanic at BCS said the new style actuators are much more reliable than the old shotgun style. I think the problem is in the linkage, the little bent nail gets out of whack and causes the actuator to jam.
We had BCS replace the keyless entry keypad, it never worked, now we just use the keypad to open and lock all doors. very convenient. 
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 02, 2019, 02:40:50 PM
Bill,
Could you point out on the picture that I posted of the mechanism, in this thread, what is the door actuator? Thank you.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 02, 2019, 02:54:46 PM
In your photo, you label it 'plunger solenoid'. The white end with the (broken) dust boot is the part that is overextended. You can use a pair of wire cutters to cut the bent nail, then you can use the key to lock unlock.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 02, 2019, 07:11:25 PM
In your photo, you label it 'plunger solenoid'. The white end with the (broken) dust boot is the part that is overextended. You can use a pair of wire cutters to cut the bent nail, then you can use the key to lock unlock.

Great! Thanks, Bill. One more question. If I change to the new style like you did, will the motor, actuator, solenoid, install in the same holes that exist now?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 02, 2019, 08:05:33 PM
Not Bill, but I can answer that. No, the holes don't line up. You have to fab a bracket.

When I bought the replacement lock actuators I was told the "new" replacement part was the Trimark (p/n 550-0100). So I bought two but they don't fit properly. I spent an hour or two making some brackets so I could mount them. But then I found that NWRV Supply has the direct replacements (the "gun" style). So I bought two of those (I will remove the Trimark ones when I get a chance and install the correct fitting ones). The ones from NWRVSupply are a direct fit (at least that's what I was told. I have not installed them yet). http://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/L19062-01.html

Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 02, 2019, 09:00:18 PM
Stan,  See the photo of how BCS installed the new actuators on my coach. The metal strap with the holes in it comes with the actuator, standard auto stereo stuff if you need to find it locally. The big thing about the installation is to make the linkage from the actuator plunger to the lock plate as trouble-free as possible. Minimize bends in the aluminum nail, and note in my photo the BCS mechanic secured the one-way washer on the lock plate with a small ty-wrap.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 02, 2019, 09:07:13 PM
Thank you for that information, Mike. I put the picture from NWRV Supply's website next to the picture of mine, and they are an exact match. Mike, it appears they don't come with the plunger thingy. (nail or wire or whatever is used) I would have to fabricate my own?

I see your picture Bill, and understand.

The question I have: do I need to change these? Or do I find out when I finally get the doors open and test the circuit?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 02, 2019, 09:13:37 PM
I don't think, Stan, that your problem is electrical, although it could be. For some reason, the actuators just get overextended and then jam, that's why nothing will unlock. I don't know if yours will work again after they overextended and jammed, mine were no good. The new actuator comes with a new aluminum nail, but you have to bend it to fit your situation. Not difficult, but see in the photo I posted how straight the nail is once connected. I think that is the key (sorry!!) to a lock that works.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 02, 2019, 09:16:50 PM
And Tri-Mark, the maker of the actuator, must have a reason why they dropped the shotgun style for the new style. The mechanic at BCS says the new style is much more reliable. Mine work great now, they make a louder 'clunk' when actuated.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 04, 2019, 11:13:08 PM
Update:

The locksmith came today. We tried several methods to get at least one door open. We concentrated on the electrical bay door because we wanted to test the K21 breaker. I have read many times about the long handled screw driver being used to get the nylon latches pushed in so the door would open. We tried that first. On my coach there is no access for anything to push the latches in. So no on that idea. Next we tried to create some space between the door and the frame by pumping air in to a small bladder fitted in the crack. It produced some space, but all we could see was the striker, not the nylon latch that has to go in and out when the door is latched. So no on that idea. Then we tried un-bolting the panel that is directly next to the electrical bay door on one side and the street side front tire. It is hinged at the top. We were able to pull it our about 5 inches. We could see the back of the striker. No way to get to the latch. So no on that idea.

Finally, we drilled a hole in the door handle at the exact spot where the bolt on the inside fastens the mechanism to the door handle. That worked. We had to take the mechanism apart through the hole in the door used by the door latch, until we could get hold of the rods that move the nylon latches. The door finally came open. We tested the K21. It is fine. It was pretty sure it would be, because the power cord bay works fine, with the key and the power fob. It has a replacement actuator, and apparently is not jammed like the others.

I'm resigned to having to drill all of the remaining jammed doors to get them open, which means I will have to ruin every door latch. I'm searching for replacements now. I started with NW RV Supply in Eugene first.

Now I have another problem. We took the K21 breaker off the wall to check it for damage. The locksmith did it because I can't get down on my knees and get inside the back wall of that bay. There are 5 terminals on the breaker. There are two blue wires and three yellow wires and I don't know which one goes where. I tried hooking them back as I thought I remembered, but the actuator on the power cord bay just kept clicking on an off. There are markings on the wires, so I think he may have marked them, but they mean nothing to me. I will have him come back again. In the meantime, if someone with a 2005 Monterey or a K21 break for the bay locks could let me know how they should go, I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on November 04, 2019, 11:51:04 PM
Stan, Steve put my wiring diagram book in the Coach Assist section a month or so ago.  Scroll down past brochures and manuals and such to Wiring Diagrams and then to the Monterey ones, and the 2006.  That should be almost the same as yours.  I’m not nuts about the Dropbox configuration of it, but you’ll want to scroll down to around page 12 of the book, “Keyless Entry Wiring”.  It doesn’t give wire colors, unfortunately, but if your white wires have numbers and “descriptions” stamped on them you may be able to go by that.  By the way you describe the “K” devices as “breakers”, but they are actually relays.

I don’t know if this link will take you directly to the book.    https://www.dropbox.com/s/g1bfb25hx6b1oxd/Total%20Document.pdf?dl=0

A legend for the electrical bay is in the Coach Assist, listed just below the wiring diagram book.

The wire from circuit breaker 03 (CB03) and one from relay K20’s port 87 both connect to relay K21 at port 86.

It shows a short wire between K21’s ports 86 and 87.

The wire from K21’s port 87a goes to ground.

It’s port 85 wire ultimately goes (via wire #619) to the green connector at the Keyless Entry receiver under the dash access panel in front of the steering wheel (hopefully).

It’s port 30 should go (via wire #98) to the far right vertical buss in the bay, TB2, and connect at post 6 (“All Lock”).  Hopefully a blue wire goes from there to the bay doors, and a #98 wire continues from post 6 to the entry door actuator.

Joel






Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 04, 2019, 11:56:21 PM
I'm glad to hear you're making some progress. two steps forward, one step back progress. Now the rest of us know where to drill the hole. Thanks for that.  ;D

I have a drawing for a 2002 Patriot that might be the same as your Coach (except it uses Relay K16 for the door locks). I was not able to attach the complete drawing due to this sites' file limitations.

I can provide it to you if you want. I'm not sure it is going to help much because the wiring circuits go by "wire number" not color. All the wires are white.



EDIT-- okay Joel was faster - and his info is better, so ignore this post.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 05, 2019, 12:30:21 AM
Tri-Mark still makes all the door latch parts. I'd go there first.

https://www.trimarkcorp.com/mobile/zCategory.asp?intcategoryid=176&topcategoryid=175



Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 05, 2019, 12:44:30 AM
There is one other technique that I have used with some limited success: Take your 211 key and while gently turning the key back and forth, jiggle the door handle repeatedly. Some lube like Tri-flow (applied like holy water) may help. I opened one or two doors this way, after trying many times over 2 days. You can also use channel locks or other pliers to help turn the key, but the soft brass key usually give up the ghost first, and now you have a broken key in the door lock cylinder. Oh, well. Tri Mark will send you replacement door lock cylinders to match your key, they even come with replacement keys.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 05, 2019, 01:18:44 AM
Stan,
One other method to try before drilling is to put pressure on the key in the lock and then rap the door with your fist at the location of the actuator. You may to need to do thsi a number of times to get the door to open. This sometimes will work.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 05, 2019, 02:57:09 AM
Great ideas all! Thanks, I'm going to try them! Joel, I'm not trying to fix anything with key-less entry. My entry door still locks and unlocks with the key fob. My entry door still locks and unlocks with the key-less entry.The bay doors have never locked or unlocked with the key pad. There is a spot on the key fob to unlock the bay doors, whether the entry door is locked or not. Using the key fob to lock the entry door, automatically locks all of the bay doors. Sounds confusing, eh? That's how mine has always worked.

One other thing. TriMark's website doesn't show the paddle handle in the chrome plated version I have. I think I recall that they don't make it anymore.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on November 05, 2019, 06:46:05 AM
I understand that your entry door is okay, Stan... it’s just that it’s part of the whole system and therefore ties in with the relay.  My fob works the same as yours.  As I recall, after entering the code you can press the 1/2 button for 3 seconds on the keyless pad to unlock the bay doors.

Joel
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Jerry Emert on November 05, 2019, 02:21:47 PM
Not Bill, but I can answer that. No, the holes don't line up. You have to fab a bracket.

When I bought the replacement lock actuators I was told the "new" replacement part was the Trimark (p/n 550-0100). So I bought two but they don't fit properly. I spent an hour or two making some brackets so I could mount them. But then I found that NWRV Supply has the direct replacements (the "gun" style). So I bought two of those (I will remove the Trimark ones when I get a chance and install the correct fitting ones). The ones from NWRVSupply are a direct fit (at least that's what I was told. I have not installed them yet). http://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/L19062-01.html
BCS also had the direct replacements in 2014, maybe not now!  I also found that style at an audio store a few miles from my house.  They were less expensive than shipping from Oregon.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 05, 2019, 06:38:53 PM
Tri-Mark still makes all the door latch parts. I'd go there first.

https://www.trimarkcorp.com/mobile/zCategory.asp?intcategoryid=176&topcategoryid=175

Unfortunately, they no longer make the chrome plated door handles in the size and style I have. I am looking for them.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 05, 2019, 08:18:49 PM
This site normally stocks the door handles (says "out of stock" now) - you may want to call them to see if they will be restocking soon. https://pdxrvwholesale.com/products/chrome-bay-door-handle-12429-01

I saw a set on EBay but they are black finish with only the pull handle in chrome (not all chrome). As our coaches get older, some of these parts get hard to find. Another choice may be to go with salvage parts from someplace like Visone

Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 06, 2019, 05:39:32 PM
Stan,
Yesterday I fixed one of my bay doors that was not locking. Found that someone had reversed the wires at the actuator so it was working “backwards”, locked when other unlocked and vice-versa. In any case I also found my FOB not functional for bay doors. Battery was good so suspect I need to re-program it for bay doors. Keypad works OK.

I re-read this thread and didn’t see if you had tried the keypad at the door entry. If you’ve got a pad with 2 numbers in each pad, enter the access code and then press (1/2) to unlock the entry door or (3/4) to unlock the bay doors. If you have the single #/pad type, enter access code and 1 to unlock entry or 2 to unlock bay doors.
Were you able to get K21 re-installed correctly?
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 06, 2019, 10:04:20 PM
Steve,
No joy on the doors, yet.  :'( Here is a picture of my key-less pad. Here is a page from my owner's manual and what it says about the operation of the Key-less entry. I have not been able to reconnect the K21 relay yet, either.
 
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 06, 2019, 10:56:50 PM
Stan,
I sent you a PM on codes. Attached is the wiring hookup for K21 (from 06 Monterey diagram but should be the same). There are labels on the wires so you should be able to ID them. May have to clip a couple of plastic tie wraps to see them. The terminals that attach to pins 86, 87 and 87A may have multiple wires in them.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 06, 2019, 11:05:27 PM
I have the same entry Keypad. I enter my code and the (only) entry door will unlock. If I want to unlock the Bay doors, I enter my code then press "9" with a few seconds.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 06, 2019, 11:51:12 PM
Stan, With respect to your keypad, does the keypad light up and beep when you touch a key? Ours was replaced by BCS as it never did work. Funny, from the day we bought the coach in 2015, I would hear a beep, or several beeps, randomly. I never could figure out where the beep came from, until we replaced the keypad. A call to Essex revealed that the keypad will emit random beeps when it malfunctions.No more beep, unless we punch in a number on the keypad. Like Mike says, #9 after your entry code unlocks the bay doors.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 07, 2019, 12:34:16 AM
Thank you, Steve for the K21 diagram. Mike Schumack, and Bill Lampkin, when I enter my entry code, the pad beeps each time I select a square, and it lights up. The code I use is one I set myself. And even before I did that, the only thing that happened, and still does is the entry door unlocks. Unless I push a wrong number, then after 3 seconds it beeps and re-sets. So if I do it right the next time, only the entry door unlocks. The PO also reset the entry code, so the hitting #9 doesn't work for me. There is nothing in the manual about how to reset the code, for the entry door AND the bay doors.

Since I pulled the K21 relay, the entry door still works with the code, but I get some different beeps now. I get little tiny beeps when it finishes that I never got before.

Edit: Thank you so much, Steve for that drawing of the K21. I had no idea there were numbers on the black housing for each of the 5 terminals. I finally found them with a bright light and a magnifying glass!!  :D K21 is now reinstalled in 20 degree wind chill! Thanks again!
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 07, 2019, 03:02:07 AM
Call the guys at Essex, very helpful. The beeps are diagnostic and they can help you figure it out.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 07, 2019, 01:51:47 PM
The long screwdriver is used to move the door latch, the white plastic thing that actually keeps the door closed.

Bill do you have any idea of the path to take with this screw driver? My doors have a slanted edge at the bottom. I can't see, by lying on my back and looking up, any way to get a screwdriver to the door latches.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 07, 2019, 02:25:57 PM
The code I use is one I set myself. And even before I did that, the only thing that happened, and still does is the entry door unlocks. Unless I push a wrong number, then after 3 seconds it beeps and re-sets. So if I do it right the next time, only the entry door unlocks.

The PO also reset the entry code, so the hitting #9 doesn't work for me. There is nothing in the manual about how to reset the code, for the entry door AND the bay doors.

The manual says once you enter the "main code" (your personal code) that only unlocks the entry door, then you need to press another number to unlock the Bay doors. On  my Coach it's the "0/9 key", but looks like it could also be the "3/4 key" or the "7/8 key" depending on how the system was wired. Try them all.


Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on November 07, 2019, 03:23:02 PM
I don't know how BCS got in there with the screwdriver. My bay doors slant in at the bottom also. Did you say your wet bay door was open but locked? Perhaps you have unlocked it by now, I would try working on the wet bay door to see if I could figure it out. You only have to move the white plastic door catch a little bit in order for the door to open.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on November 07, 2019, 09:21:50 PM
With reference to Mike’s last post, and to repeat my previous post, hold the 1/2 button on the keyless entry for 3 seconds immediately after entering the code.  Stan’s panel is the same as mine.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 21, 2019, 01:09:48 AM
Update on the locked bay doors:

On November 4th a locksmith drilled one lock out (the electrical bay so I could test the K21 relay). I spent a week trying to figure out which wires go to which terminal on K21 because the locksmith removed them and didn't mark what went where. In the meantime, I ordered 10 new bay latches from NWRV in Eugene. They are black, but only 1/3 the price of the chrome ones that I have now. Last weekend, I took the coach 50 miles from home to the storage building another BAC member has, that is heated, as we have had early bitter cold and snow in late October and the first two weeks of November. The goal was to drill 4 more critical doors, as we have to leave for FL next Monday, and install the new latches. We only got 3 done. The new latches didn't come with any instruction, and they were packaged un-assembled. So, the first one took almost 4 hours..hahaha...trial and error, learning how the different pieces caused different reactions in the mechanism. We did the water bay (the one that was locked but not latched..can't travel like that) and the pass through bay (one side has the tubs of fresh water hoses, and sewer hoses and connections and the other side has our Brake Buddy and the tub with the connections and the power cord for towing). We didn't have to drill that side because I crawled through the bay and opened it from inside. We did the curbside bay next to the Hydro Hot, and it was accessible from the pass through bay as well. That bay has all of my tools and parts.

Today, it warmed up to 47 here, so I did two more doors. (the ones that come out with the slide..only had to drill one. I'm telling you, I can tell you how those things go together and how they work, blindfolded!! I don't have the HH door yet, or the little one back by the battery bay, but I can do those when we get to warm weather. It has been a great learning experience.

I would like to say thank you to all who posted help and suggestions for this problem. I bought all new actuators as well, but didn't install them yet. I don't want to be stuck without being able to open the doors. I will do them next spring when we get back home.

P.S. If you ever change them, don't lose that little spring!!
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 21, 2019, 11:02:27 AM
Stan, did you find the root of the problem?

If you just replace all the door handles/latches and the power actuators - you could still end up with the same problem.

Since you can crawl through the pass-through bay and open the opposite door, you can take off the inside lock mechanism cover and see what is keeping the door latch from working.

Or maybe I just missed/forgot your explanation.

Was part of the problem that you don't have a physical key for the bay doors?
If you have a key you would be able to override the power lock actuator and open the door unless the actuator was jammed/frozen (but its unlikely all the door actuators jammed at the same time).
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Stan Simpson on November 21, 2019, 05:55:56 PM
Even after opening the door from the inside, the key does not work on the old mechanism; I had to change it. Yes, I have a key for the old locks (TM211, the same one that came with the new locks) and they don't work on the old mechanisms. They will go counter clockwise which is the "to lock" direction, but the key will not move clockwise, which is the "unlock" direction.

In my opinion, either all of the locks were jammed (used Lock Ese on all of them..nothing) or the actuators are, I don't know. I do know that the rear bay where my power cord reel and transfer switch is located, still operates as it should. That lock assembly and actuator was changed in 2017.
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 21, 2019, 11:47:41 PM
Mike, Stan,
Just guessing here but I suspect that the actuators received a high voltage spike that rendered them in-operable.
Steve
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Elaine Sturm on January 01, 2020, 02:51:14 PM
Our old keypad has malfunctioned so we need to replace it. What is the model of the one you are showing with the diagrams?
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Bill Lampkin on January 01, 2020, 03:47:13 PM
Our Keypad is an Essex model 1701. You can find it here:

https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=KE1701

I would call Essex, they are very helpful:  1-800-keyless

https://www.keyless.com/ke-1700/
Title: Re: Power Bay Doors will not unlock.
Post by: Joel Ashley on January 01, 2020, 11:16:55 PM
Elaine, be aware that these pads are sensitive to water.  Ours would act up often when it rained, and always when I got wash water on it it would light up and lock and unlock the door. 

Beaver Coach replaced it, and after I complained of the water issue the tech super-sealed not only the pad to the wall but also the touchpad to its own escutcheon.  No problems since. 

Access I believe is through the wall behind the passenger’s console.

Before ordering a new expensive pad, check for an online manual and it’s troubleshooting section, and ring up Essex as Bill suggests.

Joel