BAC Forum
General Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fred Brooks on April 14, 2015, 03:38:22 PM
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Greetings Forum Readers,
I thought I would put this out there for all the New Guys just getting started. I think it is one of the most comprehensive overviews about all the dynamics going on concerning your coach.
Regards, Fred
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Thanks Fred, I've seen this before and wondered why they didn't include the C-12 that we both have. Probably because it was discontinued by the time this was written. Everything should be close to the C-13 I guess. Anyway just a thought.
Jerry
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Jerry, They don't want everyone to know the strange and mystical powers that ONLY a C-12 possess. Fred
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Jerry, They don't want everyone to know the strange and mystical powers that ONLY a C-12 possess. Fred
Now!!! I understand. Thank you.
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What would like to know about the C-12 engines. I have all the information on every Cat engine
that all beaver members own including current engine updates. Give me your S/N Number and
what you would like for information. there is a lot of miss information about Cat engines in your
motor homes because the on road engines stopped production. The same engines are used in
heavy equipment off road. The main change is the EPA Reg's that change the fuel and H.P. You
can get any part or complete engine today with all current updates.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
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Hi Dave,
As a new member of the forum and a CAT C12 owner, there is much to learn about my first diesel pusher.
I would be interested in maintenance requirements / issues / frequency, and any operational information you may have. The engine serial number is MBL044.
Can you shed some light on why this engine was discontinued for motor home applications? AND, is it still supported by CAT concerning parts and service?
This may be common knowledge to others but I have much to learn.
Many thanks in advance!
Michael Rump
2004 Beaver Patriot
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Hi Dave, I have a question about temps on the C13. I just had a new cooling fan installed and the temps are now running higher then before. I did operate in a 187-192 range at 1600m rpm, now I run 194-204 ? I have not had any check engine lights since I also had the Wax(termo valve) changed. I have been told that the Cat like to run warm. What in normal for the C13
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Jerry,
I had a similar experience at Massey's after having the coolant changed on my Contessa (3126B) a number of years ago. Prior to the work temp ran about 190. After the change it ran 194-196. The only rational I could come up with is that the old mixture had a higher water content and normally kept operating temps below or just at the thermostat setting. New stuff had higher antifreeze content which doesn't dissipate heat as well as water causing engine to run just a bit hotter.
Food for thought..
Steve
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Jerry,
Your temps seems a little high but seem to be within Cat Specs. The new fan thermo valve might have a slightly higher setting then your old one.
I emailed you a link to a Cat sight that shows the temp parameters and other details for Cat engines.
john sinnar
C13 THUNDERMOBILE
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thanks John, I think the issue is the wax valve I have installed 2 so far.
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Jerry,
I have never found Cat's to run any warmer than any other big diesel, my 3406 would get hot if I stayed in it too long, but of course it was not near stock. My C13 sits where yours used to. 186-191. I had it up to 205 once pulling Raton Pass when it was about a 100 out, shifted it down and it cooled right off.
I would agree that it is probably your wax valve.
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Cat C12 engine info. The C-12 replaced the Cat 3406 E of which has a very good history of being
A long life engine. It is rated same as the 400 hp cummins ISL. Would like to welcome Michael
Rump into the ownership of a Cat engine. As far as service engine oil, filters fuel filters, life time
Coolant, SCA etc. would like to pass you off to Gerald Farris or Roy muller in this area. The group
has a very good system in maintenance that will help you. I can provide this info. also but I can
Help everyone better in problems with Cat equipment of which I have done for 42 years. One thing
They will relate to you and would suggest use only Cat filters and Cat part from a Cat Dealer of your
choice and take oil samples each time you change oils. It's called Cat S.O.S. If you will give me a e-mail address I can provide you with all spec's on your engine when it was built and tested.again
will need a complete S/N number. I also can provide you with all your filter numbers in case the
Geralf or Roy do not have them. If there is any updates will make you aware of them.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Hi Dave, I have a question about temps on the C13. I just had a new cooling fan installed and the temps are now running higher then before. I did operate in a 187-192 range at 1600m rpm, now I run 194-204 ? I have not had any check engine lights since I also had the Wax(termo valve) changed. I have been told that the Cat like to run warm. What in normal for the C13
. Jerry guessing on the s/n will go with a KCB 00508 445 h.p. Temp 192, 198 F. can pin
point this better with your s/n. Dave Atherton
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Good morning Dave,
Thanks for the reply and please pass along my email to Gerald as I would like to get a feel for the maintenance requirements and frequency for the C12 (The engine serial number is MBL044). It would be useful to know how often to change the oil, ELC, filters, etc.
Would like to take you up on sending along the spec's for the C12 and when my engine was tested, etc.
My email is: murump@icloud.com
By the way, what is a wax valve and a SCA that you mentioned in your last post? Just trying to learn as much as possible and this forum has some great advice and information!
Thanks for your assistance.
Best regards,
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Michael,
Welcome to the world of Caterpillar, the wax valve that we are talking about is the valve that controls the hydraulic fan speed. It is kink of like a thermostat, supposed to control the fan by temp of the motor. If the valve fails the fan is supposed to go to hi speed and stay there instead slowing down when not needed.
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Michael,
Some of the maintenance intervals will vary with your personal usage, but for the vast majority owners with a C 12, the oil and oil filter are changed once a year. The fuel filters especially the secondary filter for most coach owners is normally changed at the same time as the oil change, however this can vary with fuel quality and how comfortable you are changing a restricted filter on the road.
SCA is an acronym for supplemental coolant additive and you only need to test and maintain it if you are using ethylene glycol (green) coolant that I would personally not use. Cat ELC (extended life coolant) is a superior product and there is no SCA to maintain so you can remove the number one reason for a cooling system failure on your coach, the coolant filter hoses (instructions on this forum). Also ELC has a life expectancy in our coaches of 6 to 8 years versus the 3 years for ethylene glycol, so it is cost effective.
Gerald
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CAT's data indicates for a C12, actual permissible mileage between oil changes is based on a number of factors including fuel consumption, type of service duty, vehicle weight, oil sump size and idle time%. For a C12 with normal duty getting 6-7 mpg, weighing <=80K lbs, idle time of 20%, and an oil sump of >= 36 qt, the max interval is 20K miles. I try to do mine yearly or at 10K miles whichever comes first.
Steve
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Still trying to get thos forum to work
c-13 beaver marquis needs more performance
my c-12 prior could run circles around this c-13
2006 marquis
can i replace c-13 air filter with c-15 one?
can i replace muffler with a turbo model?
has anyone got more prerformance with the 2006 epa engine
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Vern,
You may want to consider going to a big Cat truck dealership and have them run a dynamometer test to measure the HP and Torque that the engine is putting out. Is the engine meeting spec and performing as expected or not. You are comparing one coach and engine to another where the weight is likely quite different. I love the power of my 2002 C12, but I am 40ft long, just two slides, and aluminum frame in this era Beaver. I weigh 36000lbs loaded for travel. The later Monaco coaches are steel framed, bigger, and heavier.
Those modifications you mention might possibly yield some improvement but many times the muffler changes just make you feel you have more power with the added exhaust noise. Seems like you need some measurements and some benchmarks to see what might be realistic and where your problem originates.
The C12 and C13 have the same 1650 ft lbs of torque rating. 505HP on the later C12 vs 525 for the C13 so not much difference between the two. This Cat link has a chart that is pretty revealing regarding weight and HP on page 6. The chart uses a 6% grade and calculates the HP required at various MPH. At 50MPH a 34000LB coach requires 340HP at that grade while a 52,000LB coach requires 500HP. Weight may be the biggest player here, basically a bigger heavier coach and the same engine output. Weight really consumes HP on grades.
http://prevostcommunity.com/PDF/Motor%20Home%20Fuel%20economy.pdf
I'm not trying to imply that you do not have a real engine issue, you may, seems like that is the question that needs an answer. It is really hard for any owner to know if you are unhappy because expectations are too high or our engine output is actually problematic and too low in a case like this.
Perhaps adding an afterburner to the rear of the coach would bring a smile while doing those hills :-)
Later Ed
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Vern,
I agree with Ed's opinion but you may also want to do search on this forum for C13 performance to see what others have observed / done.
Steve
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Vern, may I suggest before going to a great deal of cost on your engine. It sounds like low
power and first place to check for low power is the fuel system and fuel pressure. Your injection
system needs a constant fuel supply from front fuel tank to transfer pump and also has to maintain
correct fuel,pressure. Possible problem could be at fuel filter on lower base there is a plunger / check valve
that could be hanging up. There should be a test port for a snap pressure gauge on the fuel filter
base on top of housing. Your injection system Is different than the Heui system and is not forgiving
on fuel supply and fuel,pressure. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Cat C12 engine info. The C-12 replaced the Cat 3406 E of which has a very good history of being
A long life engine. It is rated same as the 400 hp cummins ISL. Would like to welcome Michael
Rump into the ownership of a Cat engine. As far as service engine oil, filters fuel filters, life time
Coolant, SCA etc. would like to pass you off to Gerald Farris or Roy muller in this area. The group
has a very good system in maintenance that will help you. I can provide this info. also but I can
Help everyone better in problems with Cat equipment of which I have done for 42 years. One thing
They will relate to you and would suggest use only Cat filters and Cat part from a Cat Dealer of your
choice and take oil samples each time you change oils. It's called Cat S.O.S. If you will give me a e-mail address I can provide you with all spec's on your engine when it was built and tested.again
will need a complete S/N number. I also can provide you with all your filter numbers in case the
Geralf or Roy do not have them. If there is any updates will make you aware of them.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
Dave, can you provide the same info for me if not too much trouble. My serial numbers are in my sig now. Figured I would just put it there because sooner or later it would come in handy! On another note about transmission temps. I had Eagles Pride clean the CAC and radiator a few months ago. The temps went down to around 215 or so at the highest. Still higher so I just had them change to CAT ELC and remove and plug, at the block, the coolant lines. Haven't picked it up yet, I'm hoping temps will go down to what everyone else seems to be seeing. If you have any other ideas I would appreciate it. It is unlikely I will be able to asses the temps until the next trip in September. Thanks in advance.
Jerry
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Jerry, here is some info. to look for ( low power/poor response to foot feed. ) I did mention
earlier today about some of areas for thought. Fuel Quailty, Fuel system pressure test, Air
in fuel system, Air inlet and exhaust system, injector solenoid test. Lets go back to the air in
fuel test. I have found in several motorhomes fuel tank up front and engine in back. I have
installed a clear plastic line about 15 inches at the suction side of the fuel transfer pump
coming fron the front fuel tank. note: there cannot be any air on the suction side of transfer
pump. if there is any air present in the suction line this means low fuel pressure low volume
of diesel fuel to electronic injectors. what this means low power. again as I said earlier check
fuel pressure at fuel filter. again note in the base on bottom of fuel filter there is a check valve and plunger that could be hanging up in housing.this has been a common problem for low power.
Last I do not think apples and apples are being looked at, aside from weight and gear train.
Cat C-13 has twin turbos which aside from everything equal above the response from engine
will be a lot zippy than a single turbo of the C-12. I can go into all kinds of spec but maybe there
is not a problem. twin turbo engine response vs. single turbo response. Dave
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Thanks for the info. I have checked with a cat shop and tbey said to put a meter on the air filter side as it could be a leak in the turbo hoses. The fuel check pressure seems like a great idea. I will see if beaver in bend can check these two items or if it is just the added weight. It goes up hills fine when going starts above 40 milesper hour.
the gettingfrom 0-20 is where the coach feels so slow
i will write if anything can be found in the problems mentioned, thanks for all the great ideas, vern
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Vern, what you just mentioned about engine slow response at start than has power,
this still sounds like a simple problem related to fuel. It could be as simple as the check valve
in the bottom side of your fuel filter housing hanging up. depending on your engine s/n number
when built. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechaanic
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Vern,
First gear is the one gear that you start from an idle and there will be some spin up time for the turbo to start producing useful manifold boost levels. You might also try and not use economy mode which would allow a little later shift out of first at higher RPM which also brings you into second at higher RPM for acceleration. Once at road speed you could re-enable economy mode.
Later Ed
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hi Ed,
I have not ever used economy mode and am not sure but I believe that the shifter lights up when in economy mode. I do not have it lite up when I drive. thanks Vern
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Vern,
Should be a round little red light upper right corner of the mode button, at least on the version shift pad I have that is where it is. When you press mode and that light is on you have changed to economy mode which shifts at lower RPM to save fuel. Obviously that is not impacting your performance.
I was wondering given the weight of the coach and the torque involved if there might be something in the ECU programming that is limiting torque in the very lowest gear for stress and durability issues. Never heard of this but it is possible. I know on my coach when climbing, if it is under a high load and it is shifting down from 6th to 5th, even with the cruise control calling for throttle full on it will significantly lower the engine output for a second or two during the shift before resuming full on power. You can see the HP and Torque fall off and come back up on the Silverleaf.
It would seem to me that if you can climb grades well with high consistent engine output, which is when the max GPH fuel is being consumed, then it seems unlikely that you are having fuel supply issues that would affect 1st gear performance. (Dave Atherton has a lot of experience that I do not have and is leaning in that direction. I am applying a non mechanics logic FWIW) Seems that fuel issue would cause some hesitation or power drop off while climbing as fuel supply did not meet demand.
It may be worthwhile to watch the boost pressure and HP accelerating from a stop and see what it does in the 0-20MPH range and then in second gear and beyond. When boost is low at the beginning of throttling up from a stop but continues to rapidly build then it may be just be turbo lag that has to be overcome from a start up. If it seems to be limited boost in 1st gear then maybe somehow the ECUs may be limiting 1st gear torque/HP. Some things to look at and see if you can gain any insight.
Later Ed
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Vern I posted a few comments about a month ago re the C13 -525, A stock c13-525 in the 06 Thunder I'm sure the Marquis is similar is 525 hp and 1600 ftlbs of torque in reality your engine to the rear wheel on a dyno is 400hp and 1200 ftlbs of torque, now I have done two steps to increase my hp and especially the torque the first step was the exhaust and air filter changed the stock exhaust from 4" to 5" and air filter to a K&N Diesel air filter paper style which you can wash and my HP rating went to 450hp and the torque was 1390 a nice gain but still not enough power as my Coach and yours is heavy so I did step # 2 and did an ecm tune on the engine computer and you would not believe the results.
We did a dyno test and the HP jumped to 570 and the torque 1800 ft lbs and I can send you the you tube video link, my Coach has never run so good keeps the same operating temp the major difference is going up the hills the turbo boost is huge and so far my mileage is improving. There is no noticable difference in cabin noise when I did the exhaust except when you use the jake and it really slows you down fast but not enough to make a difference in your Coach.
If you need more information you can email me or call me and I can go over the details with you right now my 45 ft Coach runs better than my 40ft C12 as I feel like it drives like a car.
Hope this helps
Thanks
Paul 2006 Thunder
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Vern,
In my 07 thunder I notice the same thing from a start - I think I agree with Ed that there is no fuel problem as boost and climbing are OK when rolling. It is just these things are damn heavy and it takes a lot of HP/Torque to overcome that mass from a dead stop. I tow an Explorer which is about 5k; when it isn't being towed I can notice a slight improvement .
I quit trying to drag race smaller coaches with less HP at stop lights as I always seem to get dusted:) however once the coach is rolling I can generally keep up with anyone, although I tend to keep it at 60-62mph.
I'm interested in what Paul has done as I do get a little frustrated going up hills; it does seems to be a bit of a paradox as at lesser grades I tend to lose steam and get passed by lighter coaches, but on steep grades, the c13 lugs down and pulls hard and I don't usually slow down much (I believe Lee W. mentioned this somewhere) - example was Wolf Creek pass where I actually set cruise at 30mph and no problem, well until I came to a 25mph turn and lost a closet latch and a cabinet drawer flew out :-[ lots of "what are you doing" !
Jeff
Ps. As an aside I get around 6mpg
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Jeff,
If you haven't tried it, take the tranny out of economy mode on the lesser grades and you should note increased performance. Economy delays down-shift points to increase fuel mileage and causes the engine to lug.
Steve
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Steve, I usually only run in economy mode while on flat stretches of highway. I think it is the fault of the operator at times - either not letting it coast downhill to get too high a speed (I'm not crazy about going above 65 and the explorer is supposed to not exceed 65) before an ascent, or the cruise (or me) is slow to downshift and by then it means the coach begins to slow. Recovery is hard.
Jeff
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Hi Paul
re the icm change you did I would like that info but I did not notice any email address for you so I can not send a request
If the ecm update increases your output from 450 to 570 that is a huge increase. By the way I have discovered that I have a
K & N filter that was dirty, cleaned it and will see what that does for the driving when I get it back, thanks, Vern
vernbauch@hotmail.com