BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jim Gillespie on February 13, 2021, 12:54:46 PM
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1998 Hurricane, older control board with 3 fuses (main, fan, pump), just started blowing main fuse within ~5 seconds of turning system heat on. I don't see the issue addressed except to replace with same fuse in the owner's manual. The igniter/burner lights up a bit & tries to get going but then the fuse blows. Any idea where to start looking? Thanks in advance.
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Jim,
Not sure which model you have, CO-45? We need to divide and conquer to find the cause. I would guess and try unplugging the fuel pump first as this is the most common part to wear out first. Then the recirculation pumps, then the compressor. ITR 800-993-4402 (international thermal research) may still have parts. Advise on your mechanical ability to tackle the repair and the results of your trouble-shooting. Hope this helps, Fred
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Thanks for the response Fred. It is the 45 (not sure about the CO?). I have to take a break from looking at this as the weather is going to be icy & snowing here for the next 3 or 4 days (just north of I-10, central Texas). We are not relying on it for shelter so it's not an emergency situation. Yesterday was dry so was trying for a quick fix to keep the RV water lines/parts warm during this cold snap. Unfortunately, my Comfort Hot has quit producing heat as well. Only 1 leg was working as the other leg would trip the breaker & the Main breaker as soon as energized. Good news is just drained, flushed & refilled antifreeze in the system so we should be good with this single digit weather coming (new 50/50 antifreeze tested to -10 degrees). Running circulating pump 24/7 for a few days as well.
Far from a pro but fairly mechanical/electrically inclined from years of farm work & door machine work. When a door machine tech will cost you $3000+ per visit, you somehow get a little smarter in figuring out what's wrong with this fairly complicated, expensive equipment. Haven't made that call yet, knock on wood. Likewise, when 300 acres of hay is ready to harvest, every morning while the dew is drying you have to be maintaining your tractors, cutters, rakes, tedders, balers, etc.
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Jim,
Sorry about the weather, we will tackle this when you feel comfortable. Glad to hear it won't get hurt while this cold snap moves thru. Happy to hear you can do mechanical stuff. Fred
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Hi Fred,
Actually 1 element of the Comfort Hot (CH) is working after all - I was flipping the wrong breaker. Anyway, getting a little heat through the lines. I was hoping to address the CH faulty element + improve a repaired kinked hose in the Hurricane from 2 x 90s to a loop after flushing the antifreeze during the holidays but Covid bit me in early January & still not cleared, had more blood work done Friday. Saturday, had to refill the Hurricane with fresh 50/50 to avoid a water only disaster. Good thing, with the power outages we are having today the CH might have not have kept the straight water warm enough. Anyway, looks like I have a shorted heat element on 1 side of the CH?
I see you reference Proverbs in your profile. 1 of my most cherished memories is reading Proverbs for the 1st time (at least the 1st time that I was hungry for knowledge) as a lost 19 year old & realizing there it was: my parent's blueprint of our upbringing. How right they were about everything. Life sure got a lot better. Thanks again for your help.
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Sounds like you had wise parents and now it is your turn, thanks for the kind words!
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where is the heating thermostat for the hurricane located? We checked the "basement" and did not find it. and is there actually a heating unit for the "basement"?
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Thayden, Comfort Hot was an add on system that International Thermal Research (ITR) 800-993-4402 sold to Beavers as a supplemental 120 volt electric heat with 2 heating elements. I am not sure if it is activated by the existing room thermostat or not. I don't know what kind or year your coach is. Hope this helps, Fred
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Thayden, you should have 1 or 2 wall thermostats, maybe side of kitchen wall & near bedroom? 1 will have a remote switch for the Hurricane beside it that has an Off/On switch & a green light & a red light. The basement has a sensor & fan that will come on automatically at a preset temperature whenever either the Hurricane or Comfort Hot is on. There is no thermostat in my basement.
After setting your AC/Heat breaker switches to the Comfort Hot, use your thermostats like you do with the Hurricane but turn off the Hurricane Remote switch. To move air, you will need to turn on the Fan switch(es).
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Thayden, you should have 1 or 2 wall thermostats, maybe side of kitchen wall & near bedroom? 1 will have a remote switch for the Hurricane beside it that has an Off/On switch & a green light & a red light. The basement has a sensor & fan that will come on automatically at a preset temperature whenever either the Hurricane or Comfort Hot is on. There is no thermostat in my basement.
After setting your AC/Heat breaker switches to the Comfort Hot, use your thermostats like you do with the Hurricane but turn off the Hurricane Remote switch. To move air, you will need to turn on the Fan switch(es).
Jim,
thanks. found both 'upstairs' thermostats in locations you mentioned (end of kitchen cabinets toward pilot seat and by head of bed, drivers side). Kitchen thermostat controls two fans from fan#1 terminal on hurricane control, orange wire (one under refrigerator and low in center between driver and shotgun–that's cabin heat, not the defrost. Bedroom thermostat controls two fans from fan #2 terminal on hurricance control, yellow wire (fan at foot of bed and under bathroom sink cabinet).
If I turn everything else off and listen quietly I can here fan #3 terminal run a fan somewhere in the 'basement' but still can't find it or maybe the fixed temp bimetal or thermistor that must be attached to the thermostat terminal for fan #3. By sound I would say it is over the waste tanks somewhere (of all inconvenient choices). Maybe there is some way to access it from under a cabinet 'upstairs'? It goes off after the heat has been running for maybe 20 mins and I assume it is designed as an anti-freeze protection for water and waste? It is working so my interest here is knowing for the future.
The Hurricane on/off control next to the kitchen thermostat also remains a mystery. It has no pilot lights and no response to switching on and off. It is connected with ribbon cable but not to the hurricane control board in the heater compartment. The ribbon cable from the control board goes to a similar but not identical hurricane on/off switch in cabinet above entry door and shotgun seat which does work but has no pilot lights. I cannot find the termination of the ribbon cable from the on/off next to the thermostat. I can trace the wire from the trunk leaving the slider into the basement along the inside of the passenger side frame rail and then disappearing over the water tank never to reappear. unlike all other hurricane wiring including the ribbon cable to the high passenger side on/off remote, this ribbon I can't trace after the water tank going forward is not in a harness trunk. it has no additional covering and is ziptied to the trunk coming from the hurricane control board but it doesn't show up at that control board. Not critical as everything works without it but a mystery.
There is a separate "engine heat" switch in the top cabinet rail of the kitchen right under the counter that just turns on the circulator. So if I leave the hurricane switched off over the shotgun seat this switch would provide cabin heat to the fan coils via the heat exchanger from the engine (if the engine is running of course) and the fans still respond to thermostats even if he hurricane itself is switched off.
what i can't figure out is how to work that in reverse to heat the engine from the hurricane. I presume there would need to be some electric circulator on the engine side loop of the heat exchanger to send heat from the hurricane back to the engine because its not going to circulate horizontally that distance on its own and the engine circulation is normally a function of the engine water pump which appears to be mechanically driven only when the engine is running. so it isn't going to be practical to run the engine to heat the engine. I came across a post from a competing high end brand of motor coach RV that indicates it uses an additional electric pump for this purpose but I don't see this detailed anywhere on the Beaver documentation i've found so far. Gotta say the engine starts like a dream in the cold so this is sort of an academic question, although I think it is nicer for the engine to heat it first even if it will start cold; so i'm kinda interested in figuring this out.
Thanks Jim or anyone for any help with his novel i've written.
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1998 Hurricane, older control board with 3 fuses (main, fan, pump), just started blowing main fuse within ~5 seconds of turning system heat on. I don't see the issue addressed except to replace with same fuse in the owner's manual. The igniter/burner lights up a bit & tries to get going but then the fuse blows. Any idea where to start looking? Thanks in advance.
BTW, on your issue, would like to help if I can. Best guess is your fuse is blowing after the purge? But if the ignitor tries you are making it a bit into the ignition cycle before it blows. you might try a power probe type approach. very easy to use a power probe on the multi pin connector going to the hurricane from the control board because the back of each pin is exposed on the connector.
Do you have the hurricane book or .pdf. It gives the pin outs for the different elements running on the heater. You can individually try to fuel pump and the air compressor. the power probe (or generic equivalent) has an 8 amp circuit breaker so if one of those is bad and drawing too much current you should be able to tell quickly. that would be my first go.
when servicing the heater, I discovered that a 1 1/2" copper union with a nipple of 1 and 1/2" L tubing brazed in can be placed perfectly over the hurrican exhaust line just as it drops below the bottom of the heater compartment. so if you need to get the heater out to get to one of those components you don't have to cut and reweld the exhaust each time. i didn't bother to go back to steel. just used a street long turn elbow (supplyhouse.com) and 10' piece of 1 and 1/2 copper to recomplete the exhaust. (there probably isn't that much backpressure in this short exhause and if you wanted the pipe not to hang down as far you could use a standard street elbow I think. they still have a bit of sweep to them. (you have to hole saw the opening in the bottom of the compartment a little larger to accomodate the male threads of the union lifting and the geometry of lifting the front of the unit high enough to slide it over the bottom lip of the compartment. It's tight and I also had to take off the lift mount on the forward side of the compartment. the hoses and electrics were all lengthed and run with the idea that you could slide the heater out for service without opening the water circuit but it is really tight to lift the heater high enough because it hits the shelf with the DHW.)
good luck. any other info once you and the weather are well enough to work outside will try to respond.
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Jim,
Do you have the original Hurricane CO-45 owners and maintenance manual? The one your coach has should look like this. We do not have a copy in our technical library and I could not find one on line. If not, send me a text and I'll send you a scan of the manual and we can go thru section 5 which is trouble shooting. Fred 520-309-1260
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Hi Thayden,
That 3rd terminal/fan on my coach is behind the passenger side basement door, in front of the rear axle. Behind that door is a carpeted wall/board that looks inaccessible but just unscrew ~6 screws to remove. The fan/sensor will be near & a lot of the Hurrican tubing will be further back going every which way, if my memory is right? This 3rd fan vents into both this bay & the next bay forward, high above the water control access door. So, it should keep our tanks warm & safe from freezing especially with the hotter Hurricane heat running vs the Comfort Hot.
My coach does not have any Hurricane controls above the shotgun seat, so I'm no help what that is. Your Hurricane service switch is on? That normally gets a green light on your Remote switch panel as soon as you turn your thermostat to heat & raise the temp high enough to trigger. I need to reread & study the other parts of your posts to respond as you have a lot of info there.
Hi Fred. Thanks for the link & the chance to text you. Can I buy some time though before addressing? I had to wear a plumbing hat this past weekend, like most Texans & others. Luckily, I had enough Sharkbite fittings & Pex hose on hand to fix ours & in-law's leaks.
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Hi Jim, Soldier on my friend. No I will not accept any compensation, it is my gift to you. I know how difficult it is to own and understand a quality coach. Blessings, Fred
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Jim,
Do you have the original Hurricane CO-45 owners and maintenance manual? The one your coach has should look like this. We do not have a copy in our technical library and I could not find one on line. If not, send me a text and I'll send you a scan of the manual and we can go thru section 5 which is trouble shooting. Fred 520-309-1260
I have found .pdf of generic hurricane manual which seems pretty close to the one that is supplied with the coach which we are using at the shop but i use the .pdf when i'm noddling at home. It is titled for the 32,000 BTU but says infra that it applies to the 45,000 as well. OK, I tried to attach it but its too big to go as an attachment (2.8 MB). Not sure how I would put it in the technical library but glad to email. New to AMB and haven't tried the private messaging. assume it works well. I'll try to watch. or if someone can give me the dope on how to post in the technical library i'll get on it.
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Hi Thayden,
That 3rd terminal/fan on my coach is behind the passenger side basement door, in front of the rear axle. Behind that door is a carpeted wall/board that looks inaccessible but just unscrew ~6 screws to remove. The fan/sensor will be near & a lot of the Hurrican tubing will be further back going every which way, if my memory is right? This 3rd fan vents into both this bay & the next bay forward, high above the water control access door. So, it should keep our tanks warm & safe from freezing especially with the hotter Hurricane heat running vs the Comfort Hot.
So, that is the area where I hear the fan noise. But the carpeted plywood panel separating the 'carpeted basement' from the waste tank area doesn't have any obvious screws and has the onboard water pressure pump and the generator to shore power relay switch mounted on it so it wouldn't be too easy to take off. or do you mean the panel that is at the back of this compartment that runs parallell to the bus? I didn't see any obvious screws but maybe i didn't look closely enough. yes i see that there is an opening between the area over the waste tanks and the 'carpeted basement' that would allow heated air to circulate to both.
BTW, what is comfort hot? is that taking heat off the electric domestic in reverse via the heat exchanger or . . . ?
and glad to hear that shark bites come through in a pinch. good retention of pex is a must if they are a long term solution. at my real job i use the veiga (or generic equivalent) pureflo press fittings for pex and likewise the propress style for copper. Those tools cost some money but then save on fittings. If I was in texas i'd just come over and help out but the smallest state is a bit of ride from the largest [continental] one. as weather improves and you get back on your rig let us know what you find with the hurricane.
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Thayden,
It is the carpeted panel that is parallel to the coach. The screws may be buried in the nap of the carpet but should be approx 1" off the corners. Tip: If you have a strong magnet move it around the corners and it will latch onto the screw heads.
If you read my previous post in this topic, it explains a "comfort hot" . Hope this helps, Fred
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Thayden
I think the panel they are referring to is on the opposite side of the coach from the wet bay the rear most cargo bay on passenger side ahead of the rear axle.
That panel should have six philips head screws with trim rings holding it in place but once in there what you should find is the back end of the gray and black water tanks a d on my coach the toilet drop is accessed from there as well as the black tank saniflush on my coach the actual bay heat unit and thermostat is located behind the wet bay plumbing wall which means removal of the wet wall ( with all the valves and e!ectrical hookup) to access it ( not a small job but doable.
the water pump and transfer relay are mounted on the forward facing wall in the cargo bay baked up to the wet bay .
Hope this helps
Eric
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Thayden,
It is the carpeted panel that is parallel to the coach. The screws may be buried in the nap of the carpet but should be approx 1" off the corners. Tip: If you have a strong magnet move it around the corners and it will latch onto the screw heads.
If you read my previous post in this topic, it explains a "comfort hot" . Hope this helps, Fred
are you sure it was this topic. i think i've search all your posts and i see mentions of comfort hot, but not with explanation of what it is. maybe i'm looking right at it and not seeing it.
and how does it relate to "Engine heat" which i'm assuming is the different option for which there is a switch on the kitchen cabinets which turns on the circulator pump alone and if the engine is running would take heat from the heat exchanger from the engine coolant circuit . . . which brings me back to the other question I had in my earlier novel about how to heat the engine with the hurricane as I don't find an electric pump in that circuit that can circulate the hurricane heat to the engine but rather strictly the mechanically operated water pump on the engine.
thanks
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Thayden
Many of the earlier coaches didn't have a circulation pump to pump heat back to the engine for engine heating .
They relied on the engine water pump to circulate hot water from the engine to heat the Aquahot or Hurricane to provide cabin heat while on the road.
Eric
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Thayden
Maybe i can help explain the comfort hot
The coach uses a hurricane system which in essence is a diesel boiler which heats a tank of coolant to a temperature of approx 180 degrees from this tank the system uses circulation pumps to pump the hot coolant to heat exchangers in the coach where fans blow the heat into the coach to satisfy the heating demand.
As the hurricane has no means to heat the coolant other than the diesel burner or engine heat source the comfort hot was added on in line with the hurricane to heat the coolant electrically the comfort hot consists of a 5 gallon tank with two electric heating elements of approx 2000 watts each one on L 1 and the other on L2 of the 50 amp incoming power to heat the coolant it allows the choose of heating with electric power instead of diesel fuel and usually has two switches to allow the use of one element ( for on 30 amp shore power or two elements on 50 amp shore power)
It should be mentioned that not all the Beaver coaches had the comfort hot as some of the early Patriots had Hurricane heaters and not Comfort hot .
And like my coach has an Aquahot which has an electric element in it and hence was not built with the Comfort hot add on.
Hope this helps
Eric
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Thayden, Reply #7 on page 1 of this original thread, Fred
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Hi Thayden,
Re "Preheating Engine", I think I saw in a Patriot schematic a circulation pump located in the front area of the coach that, I presume, would be plumbed into the coolant hoses from the engine to the defroster/heater. That's the only thing that would make sense to be able to preheat the engine. I have a '98 Contessa & have not looked for that pump & am not at home to look.
It's neat how they designed the tank to heat the Hurricane coolant with hot engine coolant: a pipe running through the middle of a bit larger tank that keeps each system independent.
Is Rhode Island your state? I hope I'm done with the plumbing, with the Sharkbite/Pex being a permanent fix? As much as Sharkbite fittings cost, they should be permanent.
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Thayden,
Check the version # of the Hurricane PC board,. If it is a version 12 it is not set up to support the engine pre-heat function. If so. let me know and I'll tell you what wiring changes have to be made to re-enable the pre-heat function.
Steve
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Thayden, Comfort Hot was an add on system that International Thermal Research (ITR) 800-993-4402 sold to Beavers as a supplemental 120 volt electric heat with 2 heating elements. I am not sure if it is activated by the existing room thermostat or not. I don't know what kind or year your coach is. Hope this helps, Fred
Got it.
The only thing besides the Hurricane in the loop is an electric DHW heater with a heat exchanger so that it can run on its internal electric elements or with the hurricane. The hurricane runs through it all the time. If you were plugged in, I assume the heat exchanger would work in the opposite direction so this should supply some cabin heat if the hurricane were down but you turned on the engine heat switch which runs the circulator pushing system fluid through the hurricane and DHW to the fan coil heaters.
I'm not sure if this is the comfort hot or aqua hot or neither if those are additional electric heat backups but not the DHW.
I imagine that both the set temp and theoretical BTUs of the DHW are not as high as the hurricane so you wouldn't get as much heat but maybe better than none.
Sorry this is 1998 Patriot. I put that coach info in when I signed up, but maybe it doesn't automatically show up in my public profile.
thanks
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Thayden,
Check the version # of the Hurricane PC board,. If it is a version 12 it is not set up to support the engine pre-heat function. If so. let me know and I'll tell you what wiring changes have to be made to re-enable the pre-heat function.
Steve
i'll check tomorrow on the version#. If it is set up to heat the engine I assume I would find wires out to a second pump on the hurricane board somewhere. Others have suggested that coachs of this age (1998 patriot) might not have this option. If I wanted to add, would be great to have the wiring plan and the preferred location to add a circulator. Can't really tell if the hoses from engine tee off the run to the defroster, i.e. parallel configuration, or the heat exchanger is in series with the defroster. Just thinking about priorities and whether if I added a pump in the heater compartment to the engine coolant circuit whether that would add head/restriction when not running against the normal operation of the defroster and the heat exhanger to cabin heat. If I was a glutton for punishment I could probably valve it so its out of the loop under normal operation. Just seems like a great option but might be more complication than its worth to completely retrofit vs. a more standard block heater if i really go in for cold weather cruising.Thanks
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Adding components sounds like a lot of work for something that will probably be used very little.
Steve
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Steve you are probably right about it being a lot of work, for limited return. I do have to admit though that after hearing about the comfort hot I kind of want one on my Patriot! Notice I said want, not need !
I am following this anyway. I would rather use the campgrounds electricity than my Diesel fuel.
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Carl,
I think it was the Forum Moderator / Hurricane expert, Mr. Farris, who in a post months/years back that detailed the temps that the Comfort Hot (CH) would be effective, definitely not as effective as the Hurricane. If I recall right, the CH was iffy at below freezing temps; satisfactory at ~40 degrees. Recently, on 8 to 30 degree days, my limping CH (only 1 of 2 elements working) barely kept the coach temp above freezing. On our 1 (& only) sub-freezing holiday trip years back, we stayed warm using radiator style space heaters as I had no handle on the workings of the Hurricane or CH.
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Adding components sounds like a lot of work for something that will probably be used very little.
Steve
can't disagree, although since i have no block heater, i kind of think one way or the other might be smart. Even if the engine will start in the cold I have this instinct that it is nicer to the engine/oil pump and lube circulationwise to warm it first and easier on the starter. So for the price of a pump, even if it were independent of the hurricane control and i just turned the hurricane on and turned the pump on separately and put the hurricane on short loop if i wasn't heating the cabin at the same time wouldn't be a big over indulgence in retentiveness.
so i'm going to my vocational side HVAC forum to ask about drop across nonoperating pumps but if anyone knows if the heat exchanger (I have the tube style, the diagram in the hurricane book illustrates a second plate heater) is in parallel or series with the defroster heater i would know how far to chase that. thanks,
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Carl,
I think it was the Forum Moderator / Hurricane expert, Mr. Farris, who in a post months/years back that detailed the temps that the Comfort Hot (CH) would be effective, definitely not as effective as the Hurricane. If I recall right, the CH was iffy at below freezing temps; satisfactory at ~40 degrees. Recently, on 8 to 30 degree days, my limping CH (only 1 of 2 elements working) barely kept the coach temp above freezing. On our 1 (& only) sub-freezing holiday trip years back, we stayed warm using radiator style space heaters as I had no handle on the workings of the Hurricane or CH.
nothing like a couple electric radiators in a pinch albeit still trying to figure out if what I have in the heater compart is a "comfort hot" or "aqua" or what. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be an electric DHW heater but because of the heat exchanger to warm DHW from the hurricane it can provide some heating as well if you run the heating circulation pump with that hydronic circuit running through the DHW heater.
From what I can see on my coach there is some kind of heat exchanger in the electric tank as well as an additional plate heat exchanger installed just to the outside of it. not really sure if that is meant for 'instant' DHW if the tank is leaking and you shut it off or why the hurricane is piped both through the DHW tank and what is apparently a DHW plate heat exchanger.
I'm not sure what the thermostat for the DHW is but I would imagine that (as well as total BTU input from the resistance elements) are the choke point for electric hydronic cabin heat. IF your DHW is set around 125 or even 130, you're going to loose maybe 10 degrees from the heat exhanger so you are only putting out 115 to 120 whereas the hurricane is a direct heater of the hydronic fluid and IIRC the operating temperature limit on the hurricane is in the 140 or 150 range with a 160 or 165 cutout. I read this somewhere in the manual and thought I had posted the numbers already but can't find 'em at this moment. @Eric_Maclean said approx. 180. I think that is actually hotter than the manual reset overtemp cutout. But the point is that the hurricane is perhaps 20 degrees hotter at least than the DHW and the water is directly circulated through the heating pumps, not accessing them through a heat exchanger with consequent temperature drop.
140 to 160 are rational operating temperatures in the HVAC business for fan coil units which is what the buses are heated with. cooler temps than that require a lot of radiant mass and baseboard (non actively blown heat) requires hotter temps generally (although any of these can work lower temps when outdoor temps are higher, thus resulting in possibly adequate 'Comfort Hot' performance above freezing). The other piece of grief to consider here is how the 'basement' heater keeps up with any of these sources. It's one thing if you gotta wear your coat in the cabin. It's another if the water or waste freezes . . .
Almost makes me wish that the 'basement heat' were on a separate loop just to give all options, engine, comfort hot or hurricane, to protect the water and waste systems from freezing. More custom work for yours truly going against the KISS paradigm or maybe KIOS (keep it original stupid) advocated by @Steve_Huber. Well, right now this is all on the drawing board and subject to critique of the collective engineering team here.
thank you
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Thayden, Take a picture of the Domestic Hot Water heater and post it after reducing it down to under 300kb. We should be able to answer your questions. Fred
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Hi Thayden,
The Comfort Hot (CH) is not the same as the DHW heater. It heats the DHW through the hoses mentioned but the CH is normally under the bed on the port/driver's side high on the wall. It is ~4 gallons & replaces the smaller stock metal expansion tank. I guess it's like a big enclosed radiator with no coils with heating elements instead. It does use a 7# radiator cap & has a plastic expansion tank nearby. The coolant goes from the circulating pump to the Hurricane to the DHW then flows to the rear to the 2 valves to control summer/winter setting then back forward, if in winter mode, to the 2 heating zones (4 coils/fans) & the basement coil/fan. Then, it returns to the engine heat exchanger to the CH & finally back to the circulating pump. It's just 1 long run of coolant being pushed at ~4gpm. The engine heat exchanger, CH & Hurricane provide the heat, potentially all 3 at 1 time, or any combination. The other parts on this long run use the heat. There is no need for a seperate loop for the basement. If you want just the basement to energize just set your upstair's thermostats in Furnace mode & the temps set down low (~40-50 degrees) so they don't come on.
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Finally able to look at my Hurricane this afternoon to address the original issue of this post: Main fuse blowing. Cleaned the fuel nozzle & it's stem with 30# air pressure, which I don't think were clogged. Started the Hurricane to see the nozzle mist: proper cone spray. Checked the air compressor air flow: OK. Dropped the exhaust pipe but very clean, no buildup/blockage. Put a stronger 15 amp fuse in since you can, alternatively, bypass the safety features per the manual for 5 minutes. The 15A did not blow but there was a lot of white smoke for ~2 minutes while also bleeding the fuel for air (blew the hose out beforehand as it was clogged from a dirt dobber). Ran for ~5 minutes & felt the wires for heat, all fine. Put the correct size 10A fuse back in & it fired back up & didn't blow the fuse. Heated up to 180 degrees & shut off, as normal. What was the exact problem causing the fuse to blow? I don't exactly know as I couldn't test too much more between each step above as I was down from 15 fuses to 3. Was the excessive white smoke just from condensation?
Thanks for the help & other topics discussed in this thread.
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Jim,
Glad to hear you got it working. White smoke is most often caused by unburned fuel.
Steve
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back from a sunday under the bus.
cannot find removable panel to access 'basement' fan. Realized the back wall of the carpeted basement that runs lengthwise with the bus butts up against the slider 'basement', so you can see all along the outside of that wall without removing it by crawling under the bus and I don't see anything there by way of fan and very few wires and mechnicals for obvious reasons because the slider moves and the main trunk of supply to it goes up over the waste tanks into the bottom of the barthroom vanity.
the crossways wall with the water pump and generator/shore power relay with the waste tanks right behind doesn't seem to have any noticeable fasteners when i groom the carpet. the pump 'box' itself covers a 'window' in that partition from the waste tanks but I'm not sure what that is meant to acccess. By opening the passengers side hatch for the waste tanks i can see pretty well that there is no fan alongside the tanks in that area, or much of anything else. And there is pipe and plywood wire routing template hung from the frame above the waste tanks with continuous maybe 2" holes drilled in it which allows me to see across the top of the waste tanks into the center between the frame rails, and at least in that area below the frames don't see anything.
There is a very inconveniently located steel crossmember that prevents me from getting my head into the space between the frame rails at the back of the carpeted basement although I can stick a cellphone up there like a periscope and take a picture and didn't see the fan. I presume this large opening, about the height of the frame railes, maybe 12" is what is left on purpose to allow warm air to circulate to the water tank which is hung from the ceiling of the forward part of the carpeted basement and water pressure system at the back of the carpeted basement.
still interested in locating this fan if anyone can be more specific about it's location. I might be able to use a snake camera and/or make a designed access by cutting a portion of the basement wall if I knew where to cut.
as I said, this is just because I can't stand not being able to access stuff, but the fan is working. That, in a way, is part of the problem. At least during this cold season, it runs whenever the coach power is on regardless of whether the hurricane is turned on which seems a little odd to me. So I moved the lead from fan#3 to fan#4 for the time being which has no thermostat connected. I could put a cutout switch on the hurricane box for that fan or i could put a sensor inline that shuts it off unless there is warm water circulating to heating units. a few of the fan coils have these sensors, but they aren't hooked up. Again, knowledge of the system would allow me to operate this sensibly without automated switching by not turning up the thermostat until I know the hurricane is warm but automation is not a bad option for friends and family less familiar with the technical workings who might just turn up thermostat because they are cold, and blowing cold air around doesn't help at all, batteries or heat.
obviously i can leave this fan disconnected at the moment because the tanks and piping are drained. If it were parked outside with water in these systems i'd have to have some solution, either the hurricane or perhaps a space heater in the basement.
I'm also not clear since I can't find the basement fan whether there is an actual heating coil with it or it pulls air from the warmed cabin to the basement?
that's this weekend's novel. i will have pictures of the new exhaust next week. this copper union approach is working out perfectly and makes will allow hurricane to be easily removed for service, either just extended from the the vehicle by the length of the hoses which does allow access or disconnected for work on the bench from the hoses which would then require refilling/purging of this portion of the system. i'm contemplating the addition of unions (possible high quality brass hose fittings),,valves and purging ports to facilitate this for work on the hurricane or circulator pump while isolating the winter loop completely. (it does already valve off at one end in the heater compartment end, but not the other where it wyes in under the 'hood', i.e. at the front of the bus adjacent to the expansion tank.
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Theyden
As I mentioned on an earlier post on your coach you have to remove the wet bay wall ( the one with all the water supply valves )to gain access to the heating coil and thermostat
if you remove the trim around the wet wall it can be moved outward far enough to disconnect the supply lines to gain access.
in there you will find the gray and black tanks and related plumbing .
above them you will see all the water supply lines heading to bath room kitchen etc. At the frame rail there is a plywood blocker with holes in it the same as the other side of the coach.
up in the right top corner of this compartment the heating unit is mounted and the thermostat is close by .the coolant lines( pex ) run off the heat unit and over into the centre between the frame rails and run forward above the inverter hanging in the cargo bay and continue forward beside the water tank on to your hurricane.
The heating unit looks like this.
https://rvappliances.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/md/M320225/s1.pl?
The small access panel behind the water pump gains access to the tank sensor connections on the first tank.
If you remove that access panel you might get a picture of the heating unit at the back of that compartment.
Hope this helps
Eric
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sorry, i misunderstood which panel in the 'basement' the fan was behind. I know you talked about the wet wall but I thought that was after mentioning the other wall but the concept of 'back' gets a bit turned around here as the 'back' of the basement could be the side away from the entry door or the side to the left which is toward the back of the bus.
in that picture, looks like the fan is suspended from the ceiling of the basement in that area and from your text it sounds like it is just outside the passenger side frame rail with connected plumbing (and presumably wiring) running back inbetween the frame rails. will dutifully check this out. thanks again
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Yep that's the spot the unit is mounted on brackets so that it blows air toward the front of the coach.
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Hi Thayden,
The Comfort Hot (CH) is not the same as the DHW heater. It heats the DHW through the hoses mentioned but the CH is normally under the bed on the port/driver's side high on the wall. .
interesting. the DHW is a Seaward 6 gallon 120V above the hurricane in the heater compart. so if you mean the comfort hot would be located under the bed as in sleeping bed on the drivers side, that's where the radiator is but no comfort hot there that I have seen and the expansion tank for the heat is at the very front of the bus so i'm thinking this is an option i don't got.
and thanks to others who were offering help. i did take some pics last night underneath, but not the hot water heater.
the thing that makes me wonder on the DHW is it can run through the electric heater or through a plate heater that works off the hurricane (or engine heat if you like to shower while you're driving) but there also seems to be a heat exchanger in the tank because the hyrdonic loop from the hurricane detours through the Seward as well as through the plate heat exhanger that is tandemed to the DHW. just seems odd to me to see two heat exhangers for that purpose. backup? 45,000 btu is dicey for ondemand hot water. most ondemands for home use are at or over 100,000. and there isn't a priority function as most combined home heating and DHW systems have so the 45,000 is only really focused to the DHW if the winter loop is closed.
i'm sure that folks who are used to the system know what they can expect for performance, shower duration, etc. and whether to turn down the thermostats just before a shower and then turn them up when done, and are sensitive to filling waste tanks with long showers anyway unless on hookups.
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Thayden, our coaches must be substantially different as your's has the much sought after side radiator. I've attached pictures of my DHW, circulation pump, and Comfort Hot. The manual stresses the circulation pump should be below the Hurricane but my pump was even with the top of the unit wedged between it & the wall. I remounted the pump underneath the bay beside the exhaust, adding cutoff valves. The valves make draining, purging & refilling the coolant very easy with a 5gpm transfer pump w/ 3/4" fittings & a little extra hose.
Re pre-heating the engine, I thought maybe convection might heat the engine coolant from the engiine heat exchanger (mounted below the engine, port side) but no luck, as both engine hoses exit underneath the tank forward to ???. The manual says "gravity" circulation but the engine coolant hoses don't warm at all. So, I guess, on my coach it's a 1 way exchange: only the hot coolant from a running engine heating the Hurricane coolant. Does that mean the non-momentary "Pre Heat" switch on my dash is for energizing glow plugs?
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The manual stresses the circulation pump should be below the Hurricane but my pump was even with the top of the unit wedged between it & the wall.
another weekend, back to the bus. interesting. i didn't read that deeply into the manual. the circulator on my coach is above the hurricane by maybe 8 inches. hmm, outside the bay, that's adventuresome. I like that the way it is currently plumbed actually allows me to slide the hurricane out of the bay for service without breaking into the hydronic circuit. you could have preserved that function although at some point all the spaghetti of hoses could be a liability. I could lower the pump within the compartment although not lower than the heater but even in the present location above the heater there has been no problem with circulation. Also considered a tee on the output of the pump with a riser and a vent in case of enough air getting to the pump to cause a problem. Although generally less of a problem on these relatively level hyrdonic circuits. I see problems with air on fan coils in 4 story buildings where the air is not trapped in the pump but in the fan coils at the top of the system, and run those systems at much higher pressure, e.g. 25 psi, to make up for that.
The general notion is sound to keep the pump low, as any air in the system which could cause cavitation and failure to circulate especially if any quantity migrated to the pump, tends to go to the highest spot in the system so that caution/direction in the manual would be especially pertinent depending where the rest of the heating system/water is located. That would seem to be why they designed their air style expansion tank at the highest point, i.e. as high as it can go at the front of the coach without blocking the windshield. And all the rest of the circulating loop to the fan coils is above the hurricane (and above the circulator even if it is mounted higher than the heater). The hurricane and engine heat exchanger are the lowest components in the system sitting on the floor of the heater compartment (at least as they came to me in this coach).
still working on responding to all the appreciated information and photos in your post but you can't see the original while replying so I'm posting this and then adding on.
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Re pre-heating the engine, I thought maybe convection might heat the engine coolant from the engiine heat exchanger (mounted below the engine, port side) but no luck, as both engine hoses exit underneath the tank forward to ???. The manual says "gravity" circulation but the engine coolant hoses don't warm at all. So, I guess, on my coach it's a 1 way exchange: only the hot coolant from a running engine heating the Hurricane coolant. Does that mean the non-momentary "Pre Heat" switch on my dash is for energizing glow plugs?
so the hyrdro hot arrangement and heat engine heat exchanger are all mounted much closer to the engine on your model, so I can see where they might have thought that they could get some gravity, i.e. convection circulation, but that can be a complicated nettlesome problem. I did just post a couple very inexpensive 12V circulator style pumps rated for these temps on another thread about circulator not working and you could add one in the engine heat loop. I was looking for these as a possible low cost replacement for the OEM circulator on the patriot but they are also perfect for applications on several other vehicles I have where convection style block heaters are not circulating well enough to heat the engine. ironically, i would have preferred these to be also available in 120 as i have a cord to the vehicle to run the block heater in the first place , but i am usually charging the vehicle at the same time so a little 12V drain to run the pump could be acceptable.
don't know re the preheat switch. I haven't gotten that far.
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http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10473.0;attach=10704;image
and thanks for the pics. your electric DHW setup is identical to the one i've got except in one respect. the crossover tee where the cold water feeds into the plate heat exhanger and to the output of the entire DHW system is a tempering valve. I've got to look more closely at mine, but I know it has ball valve cutouts and is setup to divert the flow around the plate heat exhanged if desired which might exercise a tempering function if i think about it, but there is no tempering valve.
and, as i mentioned in the last post, if you look at the lowest connections on the seaward 120V tank you've got a red hose on right and black on left that are part of the hurricane hyrdronic circuit and they feed into the seaward tank which suggests to me that it has an internal heat exchanger as well as the plate heat exchanger mounted outside the tank. I can't figure out why they used both. maybe they thought the exchanger in the seaward was undersized to take advantage of the heating capacity of the hurricane or engine. That is still a question mark for me.
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Thayden,
If you look in "coach assist" under heating and air conditioning you will find the Hurricane CO45 manual. On page 3-2 is the drawing (fig 3-1) of how the hurricane and the dwh are configured and plumbed. 3-3 shows the required elevation. Hope this helps, Fred
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Thayden,
If you look in "coach assist" under heating and air conditioning you will find the Hurricane CO45 manual. On page 3-2 is the drawing (fig 3-1) of how the hurricane and the dwh are configured and plumbed. 3-3 shows the required elevation. Hope this helps, Fred
thanks, i've seen the manual and the general diagrams. the pump on this coach is definitely not set up below the hurricane. i assume it is the original location. don't see any holes or evidence it was moved but I suppose it is possible. no circulation problems despite being above the Hurricane and that coordinates with my day job understanding of hydronic circuits. yes air tends to build up at to the highest point in the system but the heater compartment where all this is located is below most of the heating system so i'm not sweating it at this point.
I'm going to add some pressure gauges to monitor what's going on, but right now i'm not planning on moving the circulator. I was just musing about this 'requirement' as jim cited it.
brian
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I believe that my Hurricane is wired up pretty much like you are describing yours. I have included a picture for comparison. The second picture is my inside switches. The second switch from the left turns on the Hurricane pump, the first switch opens up the the engine heat circuit. I believe it has to be on to either receive heat from the engine or to preheat the engine. The last light has nothing to do with the Hurricane system. It comes on when you turn on the plumbing system pump for the house water. I took me a while to figure it out since initially it was burned out, and then after finally locating a bulb that would fit, it worked from a totally different pump.
Hopefully you can make some sense of this. I have not followed the hoses to where they go so I am not much help there.
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Theyden
Looking at the pictures Carl posted it appears that the plate exchanger is installed so that the hot fluid is being
Pumped from the Hurricane to the plate exchanger which is heating the cold water entering the water heater and then it moves on through the water heaters internal heat exchange coil .
I can only assume the plate exchanger was installed to try and increase the recovery rate of the hot water heater to produce a higher gallon per minute when heated will the hurricane or engine.
Eric
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Hi Thayden,
My pump was working fine up higher & I wouldn't have remounted it except I erroneously thought it needed replacing + needing to change my coolant. After changing out the pump, the circulation was still sub-par & finally found the problem: a kinked hose. Eventually I need to make some other repairs, so the remount has been worth it for draining ease alone. The downside: if I sling rubber from a tire blowout & tear the pump, etc all to pieces.
I saw your 12V pump post...try Amazon for a 120V Sump Marine 330GPH (i.e. 5+gpm) transfer pump for $50. That's identical to what I bought & it works flawlessly. I was wondering why you are removing your Hurricane to work on it as my coach has plenty of room to remove the left side cover where most of the components are. Thanks Carl for the picture showing the limited space on the left side in a Patriot but the Patriot is nice having both the DHW & Hurricane together in 1 bay, unlike mine.
Last, thanks for the tip on buying a Power Probe, which just came in. I was unaware of such & look forward to it's benefits.