BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: James Sagerser on June 27, 2015, 06:42:39 PM
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Our beautiful 2003 Monterey is new to us. As with anything new, we have a few issues. My wife and I were ready to leave on our next great adventure when the Cummins wouldn't start. When we turned the key to the start position, (in neutral) all the dash lights lit up as normal including the "wait to start" but didn't engage the starter. I check the newer batteries and they were fully charged. I left the key on, crawled under the coach and jumped the starter solenoid with a piece of wire. The solenoid and subsequently the starter engaged properly and it started right up. We continued on with our trip with the inconvenience of hand jumping the starter. Along the way, I installed a start button in the battery bay so I didn't have to keep crawling under it to get it started. I called Bend, Or and talked with a wonderful tech, Jeff Spear, who gave me a lot of valuable info. He suggested I test the start switch to make sure it was working. I but my test light in the "starter" pin connection on the back side of the starter and turned it to the start position and the light came on indicating power to the starter. Jeff said the only other thing he could think of between the start switch and the solenoid is the Allison control box that has several relays and a couple of fuses. Part of the start sequence is to verify that the coach is indeed in neutral to start which is part of the function of the box. I found the box, checked the 2 10amp fuses and pushed on all the relays to make sure they were secure. All looked fine. I suspect it may be a bad relay or a possibly a break in the wire going to the solenoid but think it is unlikely. Has anyone else had this issue or any ideas on what to try next? Thanks for you help. Jim
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James, there is a relay for the starter that sound like bad connection. Your push button tells
you starter is ok. Check for your ground to the starter off the back and to the frame also.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I've thought of a possible bad ground but disregarded it since the starter engaged easily using the original ground when I pressed my new start button. I forgot about the starter relay. I'll try to find it and jump it there. Anyone know were it's located in a 2003 Monterey with a Roadmaster chassis?
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James, my 03 Monty did the same and I found a bad solenoid in the engine bay forward end near the bay ceiling mounted on a frame outrigger. It is above the hydraulic power pack so open the bay door,look at the forward bulkhead and go to the top then go left towards the frame. A nice bright flashlight will help you locate it. Having long arms helps also. This solenoid has been around forever so should be easy to find. Good luck.
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Thanks George. I'll look tomorrow in the daylight and let you know what I find. Jim
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Hi George, I see the solenoid you mentioned. You are right, it is a stretch to reach it and I have long arms. I'm going to call Bend and see if they have a part number for it and then figure out how in the world I change it out of there. Thanks again.
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We had an issue with the key not able to turn the engine off, on our 98 Contessa. Turned out that the headlights had to be turned off first. Hope this helps.
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I don't think that is the same issue as mine but may help someone else. This forum is great. I did find the solenoid that George mentioned and waiting to hear from Bend on a part or part number. Will see if that is the fix. Thanks for your reply.
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FWIW, sometimes when I turn the ignition key on, nothing. Turn it off, jiggle the key and try again, works every time.
I wonder if this is the same ignition switch used in the GM products that have been failing?
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Mr.Wilson regarding your key switch, there is a cat Bullentin about problem with your key switch
on your C-9 engine. Sounds like you found problem by wiggling the key switch and everyone says
key switch is a GM product. The Cat Bullentin says intermittent power loss to ECM, wiggling the
key switch I would guess and engine will starts would qualify as a power loss to ECM.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Tic,
There is a good chance that when you turn on the ignition switch and nothing happens, your problem is not the ignition switch, but it is a bad ignition solenoid that is located in the LF electrical bay. On a Beaver coach ignition solenoid failures are very common, but ignition switch failures are rare because they flow very little current. Almost al of the current related to the ignition circuit goes through the ignition solenoid. The ignition switch just turns the solenoid on and off.
Gerald
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Gerald,
I had ruled out the ignition solenoid in the electrical bay because when I read his first post it seemed that everything on the ignition buss came on with the ignition switch but he could not crank the starter. I think that leaves the Allison pad which requires neutral verification to crank and the wiring from the ignition switch back to the starter as possibilities. There has been another input indicating that there was another smaller relay in the back of the coach that may be in series with the starter solenoid, but I have no idea what the function of that relay is, unless it is to reduce voltage drop and make the actual connection closer to the battery bank. Still curious about this one.....
Later Ed
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Ed,
I agree that the original poster, James does not seem to have an ignition solenoid problem, but the poster just above my reply, Tic does seem to match an ignition solenoid problem.
Gerald
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Gerald,
I'm much slower then you are, I was still working on the first post :-) Your spot on as usual and I am now all caught up...
Later Ed
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Up date: I sent Jeff Spear in Bend a couple of pictures (see attached) of the solenoid that George mentioned earlier as a possible cause of the start failure. Jeff agrees that it is probably the culprit. He said on some earlier models there was a "solenoid for the solenoid" which enable a shorter run for the main starter current from the batteries. I will try to replace it a week or so when I get some time and report back. Jim
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I tried to crank our 02 Patriot Thunder this evening. Dash powered up. Transmission panel has power. I hear a click when I turn the key but the starter is not engaging.
Coach and chassis batteries are all brand new. Checked voltage and they seem fine.
In the front left bay I jumped the solenoid. The electric fan kicked on, but nothing further.
Reading this thread there is mention of a second solenoid located in the back bay. I found one last week (while working on a fix for the main slide) that is bolted to the ceiling of my battery compartment. If the 2002 Patriot does indeed have a second starter solenoid, might this be it?
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Bob,
There are typically two solenoids back there, one parallels the two battery bank for emergency start which you could try and see if it makes a difference. There is a second one that goes to the salesman switch that shuts down many systems in the coach. You could listen at the solenoid and have someone run those switches to see what does what. When you say you jumpered the solenoid in the electrical bay I assume you jumpered the large leads which would have been correct. If the transmission pad lights and the dash gauges come on with the key then that solenoid in the electrical bay under the drivers seat is working.
There may be a small relay that shortens the wiring path to the winding that triggers the starter solenoid rather then using the key directly. If the solenoid at the starter clicks then the wiring path from the switch, whether it uses a relay in the back or not, is working OK. It could be the starter solenoid on the starter, the starter itself, or the heavy cable + or ground connection that power the starter. I would be looking at all the heavy cable connections between the battery and the starter to see if they are clean and corrosion free. There should be + 12.8 V or more on the large lead on the starter solenoid. If you can safely check the voltage on that terminal to ground when the key is turned to the crank position, that will help sort this out.
Later Ed
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Robert, this may sound kinda off the wall with your starter all of sudden just clicks at solenoid. May
I make a suggestion. Have someone turn key switch on all the way like it will start. Than take a hammer
and tap on the starter while key is in start. This may surprise you it may start. Starters in time will stop at a dead spot and the little tapping on housing it is all it needs. Would try this before you start taking things
apart. Than think about a starter replacement. Cat has OR-Remain program, starter will save you lot of
money. Doing Cat field service repairs many years have ran into your problem many times.
Dave Atherton RetiredCat mechanic
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On my 2002 Monterey I had the engine running ready to leave a rally and the lights on the transmission pad went out. It would not go in gear. After killing the engine by turning the key off the engine would not crank with the key. I found that it would start using the controls in the engine bay (where the fuel filters are). Six days later, a 70 mile tow to Dallas, a knowledgable tech, and several $1000 the Allison computer was replaced and everything worked. I hope (and don't believe this is your problem. This is the only time in 11 years I have been stranded so can't complain. But check out the start switch in back.
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Dave, Ed, Al
Thanks so much for the thoughtful input. I'll get a second man and see what I can find when they work the key starter up front.
The rear starter button has never worked for me since I've had the rig (about a month now). Kill switch worked just fine the one time I tried it. I was able to restart via the ignition key afterwards.
A sidebar question - When shutting the motor down via the ignition key, I noticed that the motor will run for a few seconds after the key has been moved to the off position. Is this "normal" operation?
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Robert, shut down is not normal. this sounds problem within the key. There is a bulletin out on
Ignition key switch circuit and battery supply circuit. if you have silver leaf here is the following
codes 168-02 ECM battery power intermittent, code 168=01 Low ECM power, Code 43-02 Key
switch fault. the ECM receives electrical power (battery voltage ) through the wiring that is supplied
by the vehicles equipment ( OEM ). Keyswitch recieves battery voltage from keyswitch is in the ON position or in the Start position. When the ECM detects battery voltage at this input, the ECM will power up.
When battery voltage is removed from this input , the ECM will power down. Info. for C-12 2KS00001-up
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave
Greatly appreciated. I'll check for codes.
I did get a helper and was going to give the starter a couple taps when it occurred to me that I had not checked the batteries as I originally stated. Both chassis batteries were reading about 10 volts. So my shore power hook up is not maintaining my batteries (that were installed about a month ago). I have a charger on them now and will see if that resolves my start issue later this morning.
I'll add the charging issue to my list. I was concerned I would run out of things to spend money on and to fix. :)
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Robert, here is a little Insite for ahead some day. A fully discharged battery voltage 11.90,
A full charge battery 12.70. A Diesel engine needs starter to spin the engine min 150 rpm's.
You are setting at 10 volts, yes the starter solenoid will click. Did you try and hold the bypass
switch, long with key switch and try to start engine. The information above I sent you, pretty
well fits in with low voltage. It may be possible you have a bad battery causing both battery's
to drain. Would suggest check all your connections at batteries, just one loose connection not
tighten up will case the above in no start. This happen more times than a person would think,
the reason with sliding battery tray pushing tray in to lock will move connection just a little
but causes problems. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Robert suggest you also check your battery isolator to make sure it is charging both battery banks while hooked up to AC. We have a Big boy battery isolator with two positive cables, check each cable with your volt meter to ground and they should show the same voltage 13.5 approximately. Hope this helps.
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Thanks Bryan and Dave. I used my battery charger and restored the new batteries to fully charged. Rig fired up with no problem. I had battery disconnects installed when I replaced all the batteries a few weeks ago. I had left the chassis batteries ON, but have now switched them to OFF. Hope this helps keep them from draining until I can sort out the charging matter.
The coach batteries are all sitting full at 6 volts.
Greatly appreciate all the help and advice. Thanks!