BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Joel Ashley on July 03, 2016, 12:25:02 AM
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So we almost have our fold-down garage eave project done, which will give me several more inches of maneuverability getting the coach in and out of the side-yard pad. Hopefully it will no longer be such an intimidating (and damaging) task, so we'll use the rig more. But I need to revisit an issue I ran past BCS when the thing was new and I struggled not only with the right side and the garage, but also the driver's side 6 ft. fence where the mirror sticks out.
Eventually my solution was to hold down the air-up switch to get the mirror barely over the top of the fenceline. But holding the button down for 60 ft. is a pain - if you let off the switch, Monaco's electronic override of the HWH design automatically heads the mirror back down to Travel Mode, taking the mirror onto the fence top. Adding into the mix that my concentration is mostly on the darned eave on the other side, and which I can only see in the passenger side mirror at an angle, keeping the other mirror off of the fence means a sore finger on the switch for 5-6 anxious minutes. Heaven forbid anything goes wrong somewhere else mid-passage... what do I do with my mirror poised over the fence and I can't let go of the switch?!
So, Tale-of-Woe explained, BCS 9 years ago was little help. What I thought at the time was easy... wasn't. How do I move the darned mirror inboard, Guys? As I recall we removed the two plastic caps (see yellow arrows in photo) and figured on loosening a couple alan bolts behind them so the mirror arm would swing forward and get the mirror temporarily out of the way of the fence. However BCS proffered no happiness there, and now I've forgotten why. I presume the alan bolt/screw notion was unfruitful. I just recall the mirror wouldn't be repositioned.
Anyone here dealt with moving similar Velvac mirrors? It looks simple enough, but before I dig in and start removing plastic caps/plugs that as I recall weren't themselves exactly unbreakable or a the pain-free process it would seem, I was hoping to get input from someone who's been there, done that. I just would like to move the arm and mirror forward where it's not so extended sideways, but I can still see that side of the coach in it, and then move it back to travel position when I make it to the street. It would even probably help if I could at least turn the mirror top 90 degrees, but then I'd lose all side visibility to the back except for the side camera, which I've found in practice is mostly useless in this particular situation.
Joel
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Joel
I just went out and checked mine. It is a little different as it has a single bolt recessed in the bottom of the bracket that goes up into the arm and holds it tight. If I loosen the bolt, I can swing my arm into any position.
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I have the same mirrors. Remove the two plastic caps with a small flat blade screwdriver. They are something like a Dzus fastener in that they only have about a quarter turn to loosen them. Once they are removed you can loosen the two set screws. You should then be able to rotate the arms forward to the position you desire. I would tighten one set screw before moving the coach just to ensure it doesn't move. After you pull your coach you can readjust the arm. Reinstall the plastic caps and you are done.
Hope this works for you.
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Joel,
Why not just cut a foot or so off the top the fence?? :)
Steve
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Joel
I just went out and checked mine. It is a little different as it has a single bolt recessed in the bottom of the bracket that goes up into the arm and holds it tight. If I loosen the bolt, I can swing my arm into any position.
This is how mine works.
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Joel,
Why not just cut a foot or so off the top the fence?? :)
Steve
Naw Steve, the new neighbor that shares the fence is, well, less than cooperative as it is. The more privacy via fence height between us the better.
Yes, Jim, I figured on the Alan screws of course holding the shaft, but can't recall precisely what it was that kept BCS or me from having that simply do the trick. Maybe the screws were frozen up or something. There looks to be a large oval cap on the underside which I expect covers the bottom of the shaft we're trying to rotate, but I don't want to try and remove it without knowing that will provide some advantage to what I'm trying to accomplish. We had those smaller plastic caps off back when, and they weren't removed without damage from the screwdriver; seems like their threads were wimpy and hard to get out or reinsert, and replacements difficult to get. Following all that we still couldn't move the mirror arm shaft.
So I just didn't want to begin down that old road again without consulting others here that might have walked it more recently.
Joel
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Joel,
This is just to be funny on the 4th. If you have a coach you can get new neighbors! Just being practical like Steve.
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Yup Doug. But I have to get away from the old neighbor without scratching up the rig first! :)
-Joel
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Joel,
Don't remove the mirror head, loosen up the set screw on the base mount and swing the arm out front so the mirror is not on the side. I had to do this once to get out of a jam.
If you remove the mirror head there are wires for the heater and turn signal.
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Well, I confirmed that removing the two plug/caps and loosening the allen screws is the way to do it, then just turn the arm. That seemed obvious enough, but those little caps got pretty beat up last time. They must quarter-turn with a screwdriver in their slot, as opposed to prying out, but twisting a driver in the slot on mine resulted in 2006/7 with damaged slots and cracked caps that had to be epoxied back together. Not looking forward to redamaging them.
http://www.velvac.com/sites/default/files/resource-files/owners_manual_-_2025_2030_and_revolution_mirrors_7138002.11.pdf
The applicable model that's closest is the 2030, with the diagram on page 4.
-Joel
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Well, I confirmed that removing the two plug/caps and loosening the allen screws is the way to do it, then just turn the arm. That seemed obvious enough, but those little caps got pretty beat up last time. They must quarter-turn with a screwdriver in their slot, as opposed to prying out, but twisting a driver in the slot on mine resulted in 2006/7 with damaged slots and cracked caps that had to be epoxied back together. Not looking forward to redamaging them.
http://www.velvac.com/sites/default/files/resource-files/owners_manual_-_2025_2030_and_revolution_mirrors_7138002.11.pdf
The applicable model that's closest is the 2030, with the diagram on page 4.
-Joel
Joel, my little caps were a mess and detracted from the appearance. You can order them from Velvac, online. I think I got more than I needed because they will get damaged again if I have to take them off. Poor design IMO.
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I got one cap out easy enough, but the second one had an old glue-repaired crack that split when I tried unscrewing it. It would've been nice if they were metal, but I'm sure they didn't want caps that might corrode into place so no one could get to the Allen screws at all, thus the chromed plastic.
Yeah, I see the only thing offered anywhere is a kit with all the caps for one mirror, 4 mounting bolt caps and 3 set screw caps for $20 or so. I sure don't need the big ones, and that much for just the needed 3 little plastic hole plugs? I'd rather be able to get say 6 for $10.
But such valuations often goad me to improvise. I'm going to cut down the shaft of a stainless Phillips screw with a ~7/16" head, flat/countersunk, and Lexel it into place. I'll try light grease or wax on the stub of threads to try limiting the Lexel's sticking to them. It may subsequently unscrew from cured sealant when needed, or at least carefully pry out with no surrounding chrome damage. Then screw back in or re-Lexel. I'll try a shot of "chrome" paint on the head to see if it sticks and looks better.
Joel
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Okay, problem solved... well, sort of.
I tried to match up a stainless screw head with the cap's diameter and it's close to 7/16"; in fact my calipers measured exactly that, and some screw heads were close enough. But when I cut one countersunk screw down to the 1/4" length necessary, I discovered the taper on the screw didn't allow it to seat quite all the way. So off I go to my Ace store for untapered screws.
While rumbling through their stuff looking actually for some specialty brass screws for another project, I see they have some chrome stuff. In one box I find an assortment of press-in caps, and the one with a 3/8" spring "shaft" has precisely a 7/16" head. It's very much like the original except without a screwdriver slot in the middle of its head. But will the spring shaft on it work in the mirror's Allen screw hole?
So I collected a couple in my bag and then searched out the stainless screw options I had in mind for cutting down and fitting with Lexel. Arriving home, I immediately tried the chrome cap in the one open hole. Much to my delight the darned thing fit perfectly and the spring shaft grabbed the inner threads of the hole tightly as if made for the job (hint, hint Velvac). Now could I get it out again? yup. My handy dandy FixIt pry tool for electronics' plastic cases worked like a charm to pop it out with no harm to surrounding chrome or the cap.
So problem solved, and without having to engineer caps out of stainless screws and Lexel. My problem now is that the one Allen screw came loose easy enough, but the second one won't budge so far. This may be what stymied us 9 years ago when I wanted the mirror moved. So I'm soaking it in penetrating fluid, and every hour or so I go out and micro-hammer on the Allen wrench with turning pressure. Fingers crossed I don't have to drill this one out. It's plug/cap didn't come out easy either... I had to break it up in pieces and dig it out without damaging surrounding chrome on the mirror.
Anyway, if you want a supply of backup plug/caps for your Velvac mirrors' Allen screw holes, Ace Hardware should have them - #940345 in their Chrome fasteners tray section. $1.19@ is better than $20 for the Velvac kit. And they're metal, not plastic, so use CorrosionX or keep things well-waxed when inserting them. UPC # 0 08236 78592 0 .
Joel
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Okay, sans initial success removing the one stubborn Allen screw after a couple days, I filled the cavity with fluid and immediately capped the hole to lock in what I could. We shall see today if 24+ hours soaking did any good.
I've dealt with frozen and/or broken bolts, etc. before, but most of the time they eventually give in to fluid and vibrating taps. But I'm wondering if I shouldn't get the nice but spendy Bosch or DeWalt cordless impact driver I've salivated for some time over. If it can be fit with a 3/16" Allen bit, is that a good next option for kicking the screw loose? I've not ever used an "impact" type, and I've been put off by the cost of the good ones my research led me to. On occasions like this I've been tempted.
Not sure it's worth the ultimate solution of drilling it out, as it's tough to keep from damaging the female threads.
-Joel
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Okay, sans initial success removing the one stubborn Allen screw after a couple days, I filled the cavity with fluid and immediately capped the hole to lock in what I could. We shall see today if 24+ hours soaking did any good.
I've dealt with frozen and/or broken bolts, etc. before, but most of the time they eventually give in to fluid and vibrating taps. But I'm wondering if I shouldn't get the nice but spendy Bosch or DeWalt cordless impact driver I've salivated for some time over. If it can be fit with a 3/16" Allen bit, is that a good next option for kicking the screw loose? I've not ever used an "impact" type, and I've been put off by the cost of the good ones my research led me to. On occasions like this I've been tempted.
Not sure it's worth the ultimate solution of drilling it out, as it's tough to keep from damaging the female threads.
-Joel
Joel,
I have the whole line of Milwaukee M12 tools and love them and the impact driver is pretty stought. I don't think I would try it on one of these mirror set screws. In the past I have had pretty good success using my Bernzomatic micro torch adding heat to the screw a little at a time. Wrap the mirror arm with some wet towel and try heat cycling the screw. Another thing to try is use a cut off allen wrench and place it in the screw and give it a few good raps with a hammer.
I don't know what the mirror arm is made of, but would guess cheap pot metal so it would be real easy to damage the threads trying to drill out the screw.
I feel your pain and good luck.
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Thanks Lee. It's pretty bad when the Allen wrench ends up with a twist in it, and the screw still hasn't budged. Hammering on the wrench handle commonly works, but not this time. Refilled the hole and plugged it again, for another 24 hr. soak.
Don't hammer drills or impact wrenches have adjustable torque so I could start off relatively easy and not break the screw?
Joel
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Thanks Lee. It's pretty bad when the Allen wrench ends up with a twist in it, and the screw still hasn't budged. Hammering on the wrench handle commonly works, but not this time. Refilled the hole and plugged it again, for another 24 hr. soak.
Don't hammer drills or impact wrenches have adjustable torque so I could start off relatively easy and not break the screw?
Joel
Joel,
The little Milwaukee impact driver doesn't have a adjustment but you can regulate the trigger with your finger. The trigger is not On/Off. When I mentioned hitting the allen wrench with a hammer I mean take a allen and cut it off with a cut off wheel so you are hammering on a straight solid piece of steel to shock the threads.
I think you're down to using heat.
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The "tools" guy at our local hardware store also recommended Milwaukee, Lee. I always thought Bosch and DeWalt were tops, but he says DeWalt isn't what it used to be and has become the "throw away" for contractors buying large numbers of them, with a lot of money spent on advertising. Like me he goes back to the tried-and-true quality of our Makita cordless units that are nearly 30 years old and still reliable. He doesn't even sell Makita or Bosch so he's nothing to gain. If that Allen screw doesn't bust loose soon, I may get serious about a 20v Milwaukee or Makita impact driver, or kit that includes a hammer drill. He said the impact would be adjustable or variable by trigger pressure, as Lee mentions. I'd been thinking Bosch, but I'm not sure the cost is worth it.
The screw's been soaking for days now; I fit a 4 inch rubber tube in the hole so it sealed good, filled it repeatedly with PB Buster fluid, and plugged the end with a golf tee. That should keep the screw head immersed. I also sprayed some down the neck of the mirror shaft to see if some would get in along the screw's contact point. Before that I tried inserting a 3/16 Allen wrench and heating it with a microtorch to try and heat up the screw, but still no budging. I haven't cut off a wrench yet, Lee, as I seem to get a pretty solid feel just striking the bend of one; but all options are still on the table.
-Joel
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Joel,
I also have a whole shop full of DeWalt 18V tools and I never use them anymore, I used the drill awhile back for some large stuff, now everything is Milwaukee 12V. The have enough power for almost anything I do now. I even got a new angle driver that has a hex chuck. When I was still working I was the person who bought all the tools for our field service tech's. I got the M18 pieces to test and they couldn't break them so all were equipped with the same M18 tools.
Now this screw is deciding on be a pita for sure, I'm afraid if you hit it with a impact driver you will strip out the 3/16 allen. About now I would be thinking of drilling the thing out and put a helicoil in it. That is if there is enough metal material to be able to drill for the helicoil. If that section of the arm is solid cast no problem, if it is hollow might be a problem.
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I purchased a Ryobi set a couple years ago at Home Depot - on sale for $100 - included two cordless drills, one is an impact drill, two power packs with charger, several bits and bit adapters, and a nice carrying bag. I figure they will last longer than me, and I use them all the time... very convenient to pack around.
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The saga continues...
Big Brother dropped by today and took a shot at it. No luck for him either. He brought some of his several sets of socket allens (Bro has more tools than any dozen of us put together!). By now the screw head has worn from me beating and heating and such on it, so a 3/16" no longer tightly fits; his 5mm one is very snug if lightly pounded in though, so at least it won't wobble-wear anymore if I use that one.
So he was curious about these set screws and removed the adjoining one for examination. They are stainless, so rusting-in isn't the issue. Then I removed one from the passenger side mirror, and it came out easily. So we tried the second one on that mirror and it did not budge. He squirted a small amount of PB Blaster in the hole, carefully inserted the socket alone, and gave it a couple whacks straight-on with Dad's old ball peen, then paper-toweled the hole free of Blaster to limit slippage and subsequent wear on the screw head, put the wrench on the socket and exerted steadily increasing pressure.
"Pop!". The screw moved. A 16th of a turn and it bound up again, so he went the other way, then back and forth working fluid into the threads, slowly backing it out. Upon removal of the 3 screws we noted filings of what appeared to be chrome on the threads and deep in the female threads in the holes. With a pick we dug out of the male and female threads all the shards we could, but I got too hot today and will finish digging out of the holes later this evening.
Bro agrees that what's apparently happened is the Velvac mirrors are dip-chromed and the female threads in the screw ports get chromed in the process. So when they thread in the stainless set screws, the thin chrome peels off, working shards into the threads, jamming the works. So be aware fellas, if you ever need to fold in your mirrors, say for crossing the 1930's Sandy River bridges in Troutdale, you may not find the task so easy. Brother lives in Troutdale and has to fold in his Dodge Ram mirrors when crossing there.
I was going to get 4 new set screws, but now will get just one to replace the still-stuck one whenever we get it out, because of its worn head enlarging from 3/16". The other stainless screws are not galled as we suspected due to their sound during removal; but rather they are like new - the problem is the darned chrome chunks/strips entwined in the threads. I just have to overcome that with the remaining stubborn one. When I reinsert the screws he wants me to use anti-sieze, and explained how to use it judiciously.
Bro thinks I ought to just rent an adjustable air wrench and hook it to my small compressor, and use his 5mm socket to get it moving, then finish by hand. First though, he thinks he exerted a tad bit more pressure on the one he got out than he tried on the bad one, so he wants me to get after it more than we have so far to see if it will finally "pop". I just don't want to break his socket allen, but he says, "don' worry 'bout it". It's not as if he doesn't have tons of 'em ;) .
-Joel
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Joel,
Did you take the other mirror apart and could you see how much meat is around the set screw hole? By now I'd either have got the bugger out broke something or drilled it out and helicoiled the thing providing there is enough metal to hold a helicoil.
On another note in the past I've had real bad luck using impact tools with allen sockets. There is to much spring in the allen shaft and they usually twist up.
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Update, or "How to come unscrewed":
After the 3/16 hex wrench finally was cranked on so much that it stripped the hole in the setscrew, and ditto for the 5mm I was advised to try next, I left it in frustration. BCS said I could drop in this week as we headed east and they'd drill it out - they apparently would try a reverse-flute bit. My brother said that's fine, but that I could probably do it myself. So yesterday I gave it a shot, sans a reverse bit.
The 3/16" cobalt bit followed the hex hole pretty much but eventually bogged down at the bottom trying to get through the hard stainless screw base. So I bit the bullet and bumped up to 1/4" bit, and it widened the hole but it also bogged down in the bottom where the flats were. I kept getting grindings of metal coming out, but it went on forever - the tip of the setscrew is pretty doggone thick. I put cutting fluid on the bits and slowed the bit speed and put pressure on it (a slow, oil-cooled bit runs cooler which means better cutting); tailings kept coming out, but no bottom. Aarrgghhh. I just didn't want to suddenly bust through the bottom and damage the mirror shaft somehow, so I kept stopping to check and vacuum shaving debris, and that's what took so long.
I kept looking for the tell-tale chrome of the mirror arm shaft at the hole bottom, but no cupie doll. Drill some, clean hole, flashlight - no bottom; oil bit, grind away; repeat for a good hour. I could tell I wasn't quite up against the thread edges of the setscrew/tapped hole interface, and I couldn't quite get a pick to start unwinding what was left in the thread path. So I elected to go one more bit larger and hoped I wouldn't grind away too much hole thread.
The 5/16 just fit inside, and with my tremor it was a bugger to line it up and press down without sashaying into some exposed outer threads in the hole, but I finally exposed some chrome at the bottom. I tried to pick loose some of the now doughnut-like screw bottom, but it was still intact and stubborn, and I was concerned because the pointed tip of the bit would dig into the chromed shaft. That wasn't working, so I used a 3/8 X 16 tap and it helped clear out remaining screw threads; but when it bottomed out on the mirror shaft, my forcing it a smidge more only ground out hole thread material along with the screw threads... oops. So I managed to turn the mirror 20 degrees so the bit tip wouldn't notch out a hole where a future set screw needed to get a bite, and pressed on with the 5/16 bit. At this point it was a relief to find the mirror actually turn far easier than the mirror on the passenger side after removing its non-problematic setscrews.
It only took a few turns and out popped the bulk of the remaining setscrew. I did a light cleaning with the tap, vacuumed out what I could, and used a pick on some remaining setscrew tip that had lodged between the shaft and the hole edges. I should have expected there to be a slight gap between the shaft and the sleeve it sits in, for turning allowance. There was some unavoidable dinging of the chrome surface of the shaft, so hopefully it won't corrode over time and freeze up the shaft. But boy had I reamed out the hole's threads! The new setscrew was sloppier than heck at the mouth of the hole, and I'm thinking, great... helicoil time.
But further down it bit fairly well, so I put a small dab of antisieze on the setscrew, moved the mirror back to the little white, innocuous, "permanent" alignment marks I'd put on before dispositioning it, and installed the screw. Needless to say, I did not crank down on either setscrew! Just snug. The mirror doesn't move without loosening them, yet it will be easy to get out of the way when negotiating the darned fence. Brother had recommended the red Permatex thread-lock stuff on the new screw, but I think he meant the blue version. Somehow using anything called "thread locker" just didn't sound real enticing; so I used anti-sieze (don't tell brother!).
But with the enlarged, wiped-out threads at the mouth of the hole, the original screw-in button cap would no longer grab. Even my new chromed metal pop-in ones wouldn't. But at least I could bend outward their springy metal "fingers" until they got a grip on what was left of the hole's thread collar. Hopefully the cap will stay put on the road, but I bought spares, and if need be I can just tweak the next one to a tighter fit.
So for those of you willing to somehow make it through all this rambling detail, which is likely only bored, retired engineers willing to settle for even the most mediocre entertainment, that's the story I'm stickin' to.
Joel
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Put a dab of Lexel under that button cap to seal up the screw hole from water entering and help hold the button cap on. Lexel is a good adhesive. It must be. It sure makes my fingers stick together.
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Joel,
Good to hear you finally got the little bugger out and problem solved, good job. As a side note when drilling stainless oil is not a good thing to use on the bit, there are cutting fluids blended for stainless. One thing about stainless it will work harden if you get the bit hot and spin the bit without actually cutting the material.
I used to drill a lot of 304 and 316 stainless and found that running the bit slow and using (believe it or not ) spray brake solvent as a cutting fluid/coolant and keep the bit cutting.
Now the rest of use need to remove our set screws and anti-seize the heck out of them. I've done mine awhile back the right one kept working loose.
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I used cutting fluid. But you're right, I definitely noticed that if I slowed down the bit speed, it grabbed and cut better than if I got impatient and pulled the trigger more. Bro had told me to keep the bit speed slow so the work didn't get hot. My variable speed good plug-in drill was tricky since a slight change in finger pressure would change the speed, but I got the hang of it eventually.
Joel