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General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Greg Kamper on November 21, 2018, 02:41:49 AM

Title: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on November 21, 2018, 02:41:49 AM
I was getting ready for a trip and noticed a puddle underneath the radiator. I took a closer look and found a crack in the weld of the radiator tank support bracket. Has anyone experienced this?
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Keith Moffett on November 21, 2018, 11:17:31 AM
I recall a member on this forum who thought t hey could drive a few minutes to the shop after a similar leak.  Dont!
There are many posts here about Radiators and sources for new.
Hope your day improves!
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on November 21, 2018, 02:19:31 PM
Greg,
Your SMC era 2000 Thunder will have a brass radiator that is readly repairable by and well equipped radiator repair shop, unlike the through away alumimum radiators that were used by Monaco. So if the area of the crack is accessable, you should be able to fill the surge tank, loosen the radiator cap, and make a short drive to the radiator shop when it fits into their schedule.

Gerald
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Jerry Emert on November 21, 2018, 04:05:55 PM
Gerald, my 03 PT seems like it is half SMC and half Monaco.  It has an 02 Magnum chassis.  For future reference do you know if it also has the brass radiator or could it be either?  Thanks
Jerry
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on November 21, 2018, 05:32:09 PM
Jerry,
I think that your coach should have a brass radiator, but I am not sure. Monaco purchased SMC (Beaver and Safari) in 2001 during the 2002 model production run, but the change over to Monaco design was not immediate. My 2002 Solitaire has a Monaco Coach Corp, production plate since it was completed a month after the purchase, but everything in it is a SMC design. Monaco started some changes in the end of the 2002 model run with things like roof air instead of basement air and slide topper awnings on the Marquis as options, but most changes started phasing in with the 2003 models like the Cummings engines in the Monterey and flat top slides with topper awnings in all models.

Gerald 
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: David T. Richelderfer on November 21, 2018, 09:24:35 PM
Greg - If you have not already found and read this thread, then it may be of some value.

http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,6821.msg49436.html#msg49436
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Mike Shumack on November 22, 2018, 12:20:28 AM
I read the posts in the link above, and several threads on the irv2 forum on the subject of "which is better copper/brass or aluminum". It seems to me that aluminum wins out in most every case.

There are also several articles easy to get to on the internet, such as https://www.cgj.com/2013/07/16/aluminum-vs-copper-brass-radiator-final-thoughts/
and
https://www.northernfactory.com/knowledge/compare

It looks to me like the aluminum radiators have more advantages (stronger and lighter weight, and cool better) and it what the OEM uses in modern cars, trucks, Rvs. If I'm missing some compelling reason to go with copper/brass, please enlighten me.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: George Harwell on November 22, 2018, 01:20:05 PM
Mike, hopefully I can shed some more light on the subject. I have an 03 Monterey built in November 02 with the 350 Cummins and it had the aluminum rear radiator. After approximately 6 years it developed a leak at the top left corner. I removed it, took it to a radiator shop that kept it for 2 weeks. This highly recommended shop charged me $350 to squirt some glue in the area. When I got home I discovered he had repaired the top right corner. He assured me it was pressure tested o k. I was skeptical but installed it anyway. As expected it Was still leaking but from both sides. Took it back and they over pressurized it destroying it. Another shop confirmed the damage so I had them order a new radiator. It lasted around 6 years and started leaking at the top left corner. That’s when I discovered the flaw with aluminum radiators. The tubes are glued to the end tanks. Much easier to glue than solder/weld. I now have a copper/brass unit that was around $3000 with delivery. A radiator shop in Alabama claims to sell radiators with soldered tubes but I elected to go with the copper/brass because they are more durable in the long haul. My neighbor and I are retired radiator experts. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Doug Allman on November 22, 2018, 02:32:49 PM
We also joined George and his neighbor as experts as we had to change out the aluminum radiator in our 1991 Contessa. On ours you could reach in and just barely touch the fins and they would fall off. Thankfully when my son had it out to the Bike Fest in South Dakota the CAT dealer did not have a slot to change it out so they limped it back home at night when it was cooler out.
We found a radiator shop that made the copper/brass radiators and we also changed out the after cooler as well as enlarged the oil cooler as long as we had them all out. On our unit it was a side radiator and while it is not impossible without a lift it is a lot of work and we did not want any part of doing it again.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on November 22, 2018, 05:17:10 PM
Just curious about what type my radiator is. It’s a 2002 PT on a magnum chassis. So I assume it is brass... not aluminum. Correct?  Also the link above indicates Aluminum radiator is much better than brass.  But others indicate that it is better to have a brass core. So, I’m still scratching my head.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: David T. Richelderfer on November 22, 2018, 06:03:49 PM
From my contact with several firms dealing in selling and repairing radiators, my recollection is the majority suggested brass/copper is better because they will last longer in more adverse conditions.  On the downside, they weigh 60% more.  In my case, the removed aluminum radiator weighed about 150 pounds, whereas the new brass/copper radiator weighed about 250 pounds.  Also, I believe the brass/copper radiators can be repaired. 

I have seen no difference in the engine temperatures between the old aluminum radiator and the new brass/copper radiator.  Rarely does the Aladdin report an engine temperature over 200F or below 188F after 15 minutes on the road whether going up or coasting down a steep hill, respectively.

The cost differential between the aluminum versus the brass/copper radiators seemed to be only a few hundred dollars.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Larry Fisk on November 23, 2018, 04:51:30 PM
Since we are talking radiators I would like to share my experience. We replaced our aluminum radiator in Kamloops, Canada a few years ago with a brass copper one. Last January while having the Thunder serviced a technician noticed what appeared to be a small leak. After removing the transmission cooler it was confirmed that our 5 year old radiator was leaking at the soldered tie ins to the tank. When pressure tested at the radiator shop it confirmed so many bad places that it was recommended that we re-core the radiator. When I inquired as to what would cause this to happen in a 5 year old radiator the answer was it was happening from the inside out and the coolant should have been checked annually and changed, as needed. This was CAT, extended life coolant. The problem was I did not buy the premixed jugs and they said that the tap water introduced minerals into the coolant that created the problem. So, after going through the expense of this repair again after only 5 years I highly recommend you check the coolant as part of your scheduled maintenance. This second repair was almost as painful as the first. The final outcome for everything, including removing and reinstalling the radiator was almost 10,000 dollars. Yes, I did have them use the premixed solution this time.
Best regards,
Larry Fisk
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 24, 2018, 09:07:10 PM
Larry,
Always used distilled water to mix w/straight anti freeze. I've had service shops drain new antifreeze from my auto if they used tap water as it will mess up the cooling system in time.
Steve
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Jerry Emert on November 25, 2018, 02:17:39 PM
A little off subject but...after Larry's warning above, is there a there a petcock on the bottom of the radiator to drain coolant from?  I can't seem to find one and I'm trying to get a sample for testing.  Thanks
Jerry
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 25, 2018, 03:46:17 PM
Jerry,
There should be one. If I remember correctly, it was toward the front of the coach on my 2000.
Steve
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Jerry Emert on November 25, 2018, 08:39:32 PM
Thanks Steve.  I'm probably just missing it because the coach is so low.  I'll put down the jacks and see if that is better.  Do I have to worry about air locks or anything?
Jerry
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on November 25, 2018, 11:18:38 PM
Jerry,
No air lock concern if you are just draining a small sample for testing. Just be sure you have fluid in the surge tank.
Steve
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on November 25, 2018, 11:53:44 PM
Ok,  just have to ask..... why wouldn’t you just take the sample from the surge tank?
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Jerry Emert on November 26, 2018, 01:07:48 AM
Ok,  just have to ask..... why wouldn’t you just take the sample from the surge tank?

Good question!  I've been told that it is more accurate to take out of the actual radiator for a more accurate sample.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on November 26, 2018, 02:14:47 AM
 If you drive the motorhome at operating speed for about 15-20 miles, you should be able to get a good sample from the surge tank. After following this post I took a sample from my surge tank yesterday after driving back from St. Louis to my home which is about 100 miles.  I planned to get it analyze sometime next week.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on November 26, 2018, 08:19:30 PM
Well, we are back from our short trip in a "borrowed RV". My parents loaned me their Monaco Camelot , but I sure missed the PT. I thought my radiator was aluminum, so if it is the copper/brass, I hope that the repair will not be another mortgage payment. Would this be a repair that can be done in place, or does the radiator need to be removed? 
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on November 27, 2018, 12:38:59 AM
Greg,
The leak location and access to the area will determine whether or not the radiator will need to be removed to repair the leak. If you do not feel capable of repairing the leak yourself, find a good radiator repair shop in your area and get an estimate. Some shops will give you a ballpark estimate from several pictures, but most shops will need to see the coach first.

Gerald
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on November 29, 2018, 08:20:30 PM
Well, the shop I take my coach in, doesn't really want to do the job. He said it's a pain in the *** and he doesn't have the room at his shop for my motor home to sit until the radiator is repaired. He gave me the number of a radiator shop to use though. How hard is it to get the radiator out? I'm not really worried about doing it, but any hint to what needs to be done to get it out would be appreciated. Thanks,
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Larry Fisk on December 01, 2018, 02:51:54 AM
The radiator on our 2005 Beaver has been pulled and re-cored twice. I was involved with the second removal and reinstallation. It was a very big job. Radiator is very heavy and getting it out and reinstalled was a very difficult process. It's not something I would ever tackle on my own. But, then again I have very limited mechanical experience. Someone with more knowledge may know a much easier way to do it. Good Luck!!
Larry Fisk
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Keith Cooper on December 01, 2018, 02:23:34 PM
We just had a similar problem corrected on our 2000 PT. The radiator turned out to be a steel frame with a copper core. We also had a problem  with the radiator support bracket. As it happens there is a threaded rod used to tie in the radiator. Each end of the threaded rod passes through a rubber grommet. In our case, the grommet had disintegrated and was completely gone ob one end. the lack of the rubber shock absorption generated an oblong hole in the brace and eventually caused the leak. Removal and re installation of the radiator required two men, a small boy and a dog (about 4 hours of labor out and in ).We also ended up having to replace one hose on the top of the radiator. In our case I was fortunate enough to find a radiator shop on Merritt Island willing to allow the the coach to sit beside his shop in a secure area, for several days. I originally expected to have to take the coach to a truck repair shop, remove the radiator, transport it to the radiator shop, repair it, return to the truck repair location, re install pressure test, etc.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on December 01, 2018, 02:32:15 PM
The more I read this thread the more worried I get. Is this a problem likely to happen on Beaver coaches? I rarely see any talk on other forums about radiators going bad.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on December 01, 2018, 04:09:10 PM
Fred,
Radiator failures on pre Monaco Beavers is not very common. However, the aluminum radiators that Monaco started installing were very prone to failure. Some of the aluminum radiator failures were related to poor installation/design by Monaco, and some of the failures were related to the radiator manufacturer that went bankrupt. There was a lot of weight on under designed plastic tanks and a leak prone core that the manufacturer was most likely responsible for.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on December 01, 2018, 04:51:35 PM
Fred,
Radiator failures on pre Monaco Beavers is not very common. However, the aluminum radiators that Monaco started installing were very prone to failure. Some of the aluminum radiator failures were related to poor installation/design by Monaco, and some of the failures were related to the radiator manufacturer that went bankrupt. There was a lot of weight on under designed plastic tanks and a leak prone core that the manufacturer was most likely responsible for.

Thanks Gerald.  So.... is my coach a pre Monaco Beaver.  Tag inside says it was built in Dec 2001.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on December 01, 2018, 06:43:24 PM
Fred,
Your coach was built near the end of 2002 Patriot production, about 6 months after Monaco bought Beaver, and a there were a few Monaco design features that were starting to be entered into production like slide topers as an option, but your chassis design should be entirely SMC Magnum (pre Monaco).

Gerald   
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on March 08, 2019, 10:40:14 PM
Well, I was able to grind off the bracket off of the side of the radiator tank. I then welded up the leak and then I welded a plate where the bracket was. Then I welded the bracket to another 12 gauge plate and welded that to the other plate. It should be a lot better than the original. Now as we pulled in to Phoenix I noticed that the plastic pressure tank is starting to leak. The joys of owning an old motor home.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on March 08, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Greg,
The plastic radiator surge tank on your coach is off of a Ford medium duty truck, and it's high failure rate has been addressed many times here on the forum. The only way that I have found to make one last more than a few years is to replace the original 13 PSI radiator cap with a 7 PSI cap, and I would recommend that you do that if you find a plastic tank as a replacement. However, I think that Ford has discontinued the plastic tank, so you may need to replace it with one of the metal tanks that are available from several sources.

Gerald   
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Fred Cook on March 09, 2019, 12:51:22 PM
Greg,
The plastic radiator surge tank on your coach is off of a Ford medium duty truck, and it's high failure rate has been addressed many times here on the forum. The only way that I have found to make one last more than a few years is to replace the original 13 PSI radiator cap with a 7 PSI cap, and I would recommend that you do that if you find a plastic tank as a replacement. However, I think that Ford has discontinued the plastic tank, so you may need to replace it with one of the metal tanks that are available from several sources.

Gerald   

Beaver Coach Sales in Oregon sells the metal tanks for about $400. I bought one and it is solid and.... it should last forever.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on March 09, 2019, 03:34:22 PM
Thanks Gerald, Fred, I called BCS and they have them in stock. I will order one when I get home. Hopefully some J-B weld and the emergency tape will get me home! :D I will check the cap too. Even at 55 mph going up the grapevine the temp never got over 186.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Gerald Farris on March 09, 2019, 06:31:12 PM
Greg,
The C 12 coaches normally run cool, that is the reason that I started running a 7 PSI radiator cap long before the metal tanks became available and the only replacement was another Ford plastic tank. I have never had a surge tank failure with a 7 PSI cap since I started running one 10 or 12 years ago, and because neither of the coaches that I have owned in that time ever reach a temperature to boil over even without a cap, I do not see a need for the 13PSI cap.

Gerald   
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Bill Borden on March 09, 2019, 11:12:50 PM
The Metal surge tank is made for BCS by Macs Radiator shop in Oregon.

The price is lower than BCS.


http://macsradiatorshop.com/surge-overflow-tanks/ford-truck-coolant-surge-tank/ford-truck-expansion-tank.html
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on March 14, 2019, 10:36:55 PM
Thanks Bill, I should have looked at this post again when I got home. Oh well, it was only $30.00 more... At least it's here for others in the future.
Title: Re: Cracked radiator
Post by: Greg Kamper on March 24, 2019, 08:29:44 PM
The metal surge tank is in. Pretty easy switch, maybe 30 minutes to swap it out. The longest time was spent pouring in the antifreeze.