BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Marilyn Ruta on April 01, 2020, 02:53:41 PM
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1989 Ticonderoga had battery separator catch fire. I have now replaced unit, cleaned up burnt wiring, and installed battery disconnects. Wiring was all put back the way it was but unfortunately I believe this unit has had a previous fire. Whoever repaired previously did not do it correctly. Coach starts and runs fine, all electrical seems to be working but both battery banks are linked constantly. Does anyone have an electrical drawing for the firewall in the engine compartment? There is a battery separator, two other solenoids, two 200 amp fuses, a heart charge control and a solar control all tied at this point. I will probably move the solar control ( this one doesn’t work) and the heart charge control away from the engine. Also the battery separator has the same charging control as the heart unit...is duplication required or even a good idea? Also any ideas as to where the wires are routed from the roof to the engine compartment?
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Go to the BAC webs site; https://beaveramb.org/
From the top bar, Select "About"
Then "Beaver History"
then "Beaver Coaches 1984-1994"
then "Schematics 1984-1994"
then "Service Manual Schematics"
There are a number of diagrams of the wiring of the battery bay including the isolator. The early ones are for GM gas models but once you hit the diesel chassis diagrams you may find what you are looking for or something very close. Suggest you use the "drawn date' as a guide.
Steve
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Hello I believe what you are looking for is in the coach assist section under 1996 Monterey drawings page 8 and 9
The two fuses are 1 for the chassis batteries and the other to the coach batteries.
One of the solenoids is the battery disconnect and one is the boost solenoid.
As for the solar lead in I'm not sure where they come down from the roof.
Good luck
Eric
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Marilyn, another place to look is behind the LP detector in the kitchen cabinet near the floor. The original detector was powered by the chassis battery and the house battery. Later replacement detectors only had 1 red power wire. Some people did not know what to do when replacing the detector so they combined the 2 red wires together and connected them to the replacement detector. From that day forward if the house batteries went dead, so did the chassis batteries. Hope you figure it out, Fred
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Thanks for the comments. From what I see in the wiring diagrams up to 1988 are one set, then they were revised in 1989, and again in 1990. Unfortunately there are no 1989 drawings. The 1991 drawings are close to what I see in my coach. The drawing in pretty simple and I may just gut the wiring completely and start new. Any thoughts on why you would need the Heart charge control and a battery separator that has the same function built into it? At the very least I will move the Heart and the solar control to a weather proof location.
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Marilyn, is your coach an 89 or 98, the profile has me confused, Thanks Fred
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1998 sorry about that.....got the numbers all screwed up
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In Coach Assist, check the 94-95 Patriot diagrams.
Steve
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Found the drawings....not much help. Thanks
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Hey Marilyn, I was just reviewing your previous comments. When you say "heart interface" are you referring to the "echo charger? The echo charger is a maintenance charger to keep the chassis batteries topped off from parasitic discharges. The battery isolator is the alternator main means of charging the chassis and house batteries. The freedom inverter/charger is the main source (battery charger) for the house batteries when plugged into shore power. You need these main components as engineered. Sorry for your difficulties, hope you solve your issues. Fred
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Marilyn,
Like Fred stated, the battery isolator is used to separate the two battery banks from discharging each other, but it allows the engine alternator to recharge both battery banks. That is its only function. It is just a very large diode bank with the engine alternator output tied to the center terminal and the house battery bank tied to one end and the chassis battery bank tied to the other. Since the battery isolator prevents battery voltage from reaching the output terminal of the engine alternator, your coach came with a Duvac alternator with a sense wire and an ignition wire that enables it to properly recharge your batteries.
If my explanation does not make sense to you, and you need more help in understanding your coach wiring, just call me and I can walk you through your wiring issues. 713-254-4156 I am presently located in Arizona, (Mountain Standard Time Zone).
Gerald
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From the information with the separator it states that it monitors voltage and links to charge both battery banks. Sure Power 1315-200. It also has the switch to link the battery banks which works. I don’t have the sheet with me but will bring it home tomorrow. The Heart Interface box ( not the inverter / charger ) was connected to both posts on the separator along with the output from the solar controller. From what I read this control does exactly the same thing as the separator. I have a picture of the wiring but this site won’t let me post- file too big. Today I removed the Heart box and all the solar connections, still have both battery banks linked constantly....traced all chassis battery wiring and found all to be okay except for wiring at starter solenoid, not 100 % sure what it is supposed to look like, but I don’t think it is correct. Again, wish I could send pictures....everything works, engine starts fine, salesman switch works. That being said I am sure looking at how the separator, fuses and start solenoid are wired something is not right. I am waiting for a friend to come look and have another opinion before I start going through it all one wire at a time. Thanks for all the help and I may call......Marc ( Marilyn’s husband)
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I will try this picture
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Your fire wall looks different than my 1997
You say there had been a fire was it at the firewall?
I'll try to get you some pics of mine to compare.
In your pictures I see only the boost solenoid and the battery combiner and the two fuses ( coach batteries and chassis battery)
I know this sounds strange but have you checked the battery cables at the batteries it's not uncommon to get them hooked up wrong.
At the moment I have my solar disconnect ( bad charge controller)
And I am about to install a new battery combiner as my coach never had one.
Meanwhile I'll try to get you some pictures
Eric
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Marc, From looking at your picture, you don't have an diode isolator. Earlier generation used the 1315-200 solenoid to combine the house and chassis batteries. It is also used as the "boost" solenoid which is controlled by a switch at the dash to assist in starting the engine. This 200 amp solenoid also is activated by an ignition circuit once you start the engine so the alternator will charge both sets of batteries. May I suggest disconnecting the chassis battery ground cable and then start tracing cables to divide and conquer. I have seen these 200 amp solenoids fail internally and end up connecting both posts together which would cause your issue. Hope this helps, Fred
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Marc,
The guide to resizing and posting pictures/photos is located in the Forum Assistance board (members only). It will describe how to post a picture. If you have problems after reading it let me know.
Steve
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Figured out the photo thing....
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Battery separator is new....hoping it is functional, did not test it but I can hear the solenoid close when switch on dash is closed. I believe the battery bank is wired correctly, and the problem is in this mass of wires. The wiring of the start solenoid ( top right in picture) has power coming from the coach batteries. The 200 amp fuses are used more as junctions than as fuses the way it is wired now. Shouldn’t all distribution to inverter, Onan be fused? Engine starter goes directly from batteries to starter, positive and negative, which makes sense. Onan 12 volt power goes to 200 fuse then to salesman switch( that works) and un fused to junction at Onan for starter and electrical distribution on drivers side bay.
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Picture of battery bank before I installed disconnects
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And trimmed the centre steel battery hold down.....
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Eric. After we had an electrical fire ( battery separator melt down) and I began looking for a cause I noticed the board that all this electrical is fastened to is secured with Robertson head screws. That has been my indicator with anything on this coach that has been worked on. Factory used all Phillips head screws and this coach had two owners since new, both Canadians. The heat shielding around the engine has all been replaced and the underside of the bed has been repaired. All of the factory wiring has labels except at this mess in the engine compartment. Will attach picture of after the fire.
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Marc after looking at my set up I see my fuses have been bypassed
(not a good thing so I guess I'll have to get a pair and put them in)
Your fire wall started out the same as mine and would originally have had a big blue diode isolator as Fred said at some point it must have failed and someone has connected the alternator output straight to the chassis battery and are using the battery separator to combine the battery banks to charge the coach batteries.
In the morning I'll try to get a picture up as promised.
Eric
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Marc,
If your engine alternator has been changed to the standard truck alternator instead of the Duvac alternator that your coach came with, it will not work if you reinstall the diode pack battery isolator that your coach came with. If you need to replace the aftermarket battery isolator that you have, and you do not have a Duvac alternator, my recommendation would be to install a Blue Sea isolator like this one (https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Automatic-Charging-Equipment/dp/B01HJTFDKG/ref=sr_1_46?dchild=1&keywords=blue+sea&qid=1585964324&sr=8-46). It is much more durable, rated at 500 amps, and gives the driver complete control of all function or it will operate automatically, it just depends on how you set the switch at the drivers seat.
Gerald
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Went through the wiring, wire by wire. Solved a couple of mysteries and discovered a few more. Made a drawing and I will attach. There was definitely a previous fire as I had suspected. Found a couple more burnt wires that have been repaired. In the drawing you will see the switch from the dashboard to link the battery banks is connected to another solenoid. I removed this solenoid and tested it and it works fine. When I installed the new separator as you connect the ground you hear it close momentarily. I assumed everything was okay. When I pressed the switch on the dashboard I could here the solenoid operate and assumed it was the new separator....wrong...it was this extra solenoid that was working. The only thing I can think of is that the separator wasn’t working and they installed the other solenoid to link the battery banks. There are also two wires I haven’t been able to trace as you will see on the drawing. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks again. Marc
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Propane detector wiring tied together
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Hi Marc
1) in your drawing the hydraulic pump wire and the chassis battery leads are reversed the pump and chassis panel should be fused.
2) I don't see a alternator feed line so my guess is that unknown 2 GA wire goes either to the alternator or down to the starter positive terminal where the alternator is also connected.
3) the original boost solenoid is an isolated ground solenoid meaning the activation coil inside is not case grounded and has to be grounded to work.
Marc the battery separator was installed to combine the two battery banks effectively replacing the original charge diode set.
This system should provide bidirectional charging allowing both batteries to be charged by either the alternator or the inverter.
If the electronics in the separator are working correctly every time a charge voltage is present on either side it should connect the two battery banks together.
This can be check by connecting a battery charger to one battery bank at a time and check the voltage on other battery bank to verify the batteries have been combined by the battery separator.
If the boost wiring was connected on the battery separator the original boost solenoid would be redundant.
Hope this helps
Eric
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Marc
Check to see the size of the separator solenoid Do 100 amp or 200 amp if it's the 200 amp you could just move the boost activation air from the old boost solenoid over to the boost wire on the new separator I believe it's the brown wire on the separator then you could remove the boost solenoid and the cables.
Eric
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Hi Marc, Thanks for taking the time to generate the drawing. You appear to have a good understanding of 12 volt logic. When I have had to sort out an issue like yours and there are no prints, I do the same as you. First of all, are there 2 different switches on the dash? 1 for "boost" and 1 for battery charging?.
To try and answer your questions, this is difficult because you don't know how many fingers have been in the pie! but here goes: 2 GA could be the alternator or jacks pump, 12 ga could be the monitor panel, the relay is nothing more than a remote switch from the dash switch. Relay logic is this: #30 is 12 volt power source, 85 is from the switch 12volt, 86 is the relay ground, 87A is normally closed and 87 is normally open. When you activate the switch, 87 sends 12volt to whatever you are trying to activate.
I would fabricate a 40' jumper wire with 2 alligator clips. If you want to identify a particular wire, disconnect it at both ends and perform a continuity test with a meter then label it. You will sort this out!!!!
Thanks for the pics of the propane detector. Blessings, Fred
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Thanks again for all the help, let me know where to send the check. There is only one switch on dash to link the battery banks. 2Ga wire- hydraulic pump has feed from chassis 200A fuse. Assuming only one pump for jacks and slide. Made a long jumper wire yesterday...works great. Unfortunately whoever had their hands in any of the maintenance of this coach, from the wiring, plumbing, flooring, steps, and even modifications to the cabinets should be shot. I will take a picture today of the mess behind the rear control panel....that will be a project for another day. Is the Heart Interface echo charger required as the battery separator serves the same function for charging? If it is required, is there some way to test it as it was a victim of the fire? I have removed the second solenoid and will move switch wire to new separator. Eric..it is 200amp. The propane detector was wired with hot wires tied as shown in picture. I cut one of the hot leads coming out of the wall and only one has power....will investigate more today.
Solar panels....small panel was hooked directly to chassis batteries...is this a good idea or should it have a control or disconnect or something? 2 larger panels were hooked to a control, also a victim of the fire, should I purchase a MPPT controller and wire to coach batteries? I have tested solar panels and they all put out around 20 volts. I will have to find a new location for solar controls as I don’t believe they should be exposed to engine heat. Back at it again today....leaking sewer valve and dripping fittings in the water bay....and yes someone was in this compartment before me and just covered up the rotten floor.....thanks again guys....Marc
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Marc
It was quite common for the small panel to be hooked directly to the chassis battery the thought being it was of such a small wattage that it didn't require regulation .
As for your main panels I would replace the charge controller with the controller you suggested and think about going with a larger amperage unit to allow expansion of the system( you would likely have to up grade the lead in wires to add more panels or put the panels in series increasing the voltage and there fore lowering the volt drop and amperage they carry.the beauty of that type of controller is it can take in a much higher voltage input and regulate it to your battery voltage very effectively.
The other advantage to the panels being in series is that in low light condition the sum of the voltage from each panel adds so even in low light conditions the charge threshold voltage is acheived much earlier and the charge controller will begin to charge much earlier than if the panels were in parallel. This gives you a longer charging day as apposed to the 3 to 4 hours in the winter you might get an extra 2 or 3 it all makes a difference.
Hope this helps
Eric
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Marc
Fred can chime in here but I think the two red wires on the propane detector should be one which is powered off the coach battery and the other off the chassis battery ( the chassis wire maybe switched with the ignition).
Eric
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Marc, Just for giggles, check the voltage of each of the red wires coming from the cabinet that were tied together going to the lp detector, should be different (house & chassis). Eric, the original detector had 2 energy sources. That was eventually superseded by the house battery only. The picture proves my point of an ignorant installation tying both energy sources together.
Marc, is the dash switch momentary, on-off, or on-off-momentary and how is it identified? Here is how the echo charger is engineered: It gets its power from the HOUSE battery thru the yellow 15 amp fuse (solid red 14ga wire). When it senses 13.1 volts it then knows the house batteries are being charged (solar, shore power, ect) It then trickle charges the CHASSIS batteries thru the yellow 15 amp fuse (red wire with yellow stripe) This will never take the place of a 200 amp solenoid. The green LED will indicate operation.
All solar panels must have a controller to regulate output (no controller equals fried batteries) Mppt controllers do the best job but are more expensive.
Perhaps someone out there in Forum land could chime in that owns a 98 Ticonderoga and send some pictures of the original configuration on the engine side of the bed pedestal.
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Fred
I'm inclined to agree with you on the lack of charge controller for the chassis battery no controller equals over charge.
But my 1997 Patriot had no controller for the chassis panel the panel is about 12 inches square .
The coach panels are two 50 watt panels and are about 16 inches by 36 inches and they do have a charge controller.
I checked the 1998 Patriot brochure and it mentions the dual 50 watt panel with regulator and it only says there is a chassis solar panel no mention of regulation .
That 12 inch panel I'd assume would maybe make 6 watts IN FULL SUN which would equate to around 500 milliamps or half an amp
I believe this is why they didn't bother with a controller for it ( that and cost )
On my coach I am going to remove all the panels to make way for 6 x 100 watt panels and a new charge controller
With the battery combiner there is no reason to have a separate chassis panel
It's funny these older coaches didn't come with the capability to automatically combine the batteries ( no echo charger)
Eric
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Eric, 1997 was right at the time they were coming up to speed about the benefits of solar. In 1998 h,eart Interface came out with the "Echo Charger" This allowed the Solar panels to charge the house batteries and when they were up all the way, then it would latch onto the chassis batteries.
Marc is dealing with a serious issue when people do not seek professional consul or understand the ramifications of the repairs they make. I appreciate your input and care trying to help him out. Blessings & Joy, Fred
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I finally got the picture of my isolation panel on the firewall in the engine compartment
you will notice that both main fuses have been bypassed (bad idea) i have new ones to install maybe tomorrow
it looks like the diode bank has been replaced
the 10 GA wire you see connected to the chassis side of the diode bank is a voltage sense wire coming from the regulator on the alternator
this coach did not have an echo charger so yours may have been some what different.
in your original picture i see the tabs where the wire ties used to hold the cables to the isolation board
anyway this is a 1997 but i think your 1998 would have been close to the same originally
i think that the original diode bank burnt someone replaced it with the battery separator you have now which has the electronic control to combine the two battery banks which will in a round about way do the same thing the diode bank did and as a bonus it should be bidirectional to allow the inverters charger or the solar to charge both battery banks.
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Guys...propane detector- did not test 2nd wire with ignition on, will try that tomorrow. What I did notice was when I reconnect the wires the gas shutoff opens. Unit is dated 2004, should I just trash it and buy a new one?
Dash switch to link batteries in momentary, have to hold switch down to work. Switch has a picture of a battery on it. I hooked the switch to the new separator and when held down voltage on dash voltmeter changes. Good news, I think.
Echo charger- 1315-200 separator relay closes when it senses 13.2 volts charging both battery banks, does this eliminate the need for the echo charger?
Solar panels- my plan was to hook panels to batteries before disconnects to allow solar charging with disconnects open when the coach is parked, not in use, and not hooked to shore power. Could I hook the echo charger directly to the batteries or am I making this more complicated than it needs to be. In the past my batteries were almost drained after sitting for a week. Thanks. Marc
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Fred
I hear you on the uninformed mods as you can see from the picture in my last post someone has removed the 250 amp fuses and by last them . I've pick up new ones and will replace them soon.
Eric
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Marc
That sounds like a good idea but I'll let Fred speak on the function of the echo charger and it's hook up.
As for the small chassis panel I would just disconnect it as the coach battery combining solenoid will charge both banks anyway.
It's important that all solar panels in a parellel system be of the same size to work properly so hooking the small chassis panel in with the other two is not a good idea as it would actually low the output of the combined set.
Good luck and stay safe
Eric
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Marc,
Have you resolved your original issue with the batteries combined together? We seem to be going down various rabbit trails and it would be far easier for me to talk with you. Gerald offered and now I am so please call me at 520-309-1260 so we can move past this adventure. Thanks Fred