BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Tim Schafer on August 07, 2015, 04:30:27 AM
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I just picked up a 1997 Beaver Patriot Camden from a police impound sale. I have figured most things out on it as I also own a 83 motorhome and had to figure out all the things on it. However, the beaver is a whole different beast....
The issues I am currently facing are, the coach will not start on the chassis batteries, they are dead according the computer, they show 10.4 - 11.2 volts even after running it for over an hour driving it home and plugging it into a 50 amp plug overnight. They are only 4 months old, but it sat in the impound without AC hooked up to it, so I think the engine drained them and killed them. It will start off the alternate start button. I am going back to where the batteries were purchased from and have them replace the batteries. I mention the batteries because I am hoping they may be causing 2 of the 3 main issues I am facing.
The generator will start and run if I hold down the alternate start button, but as soon as I release the button it turns off. May be related to the batteries, not sure.
The jacks power up with the power button, but as soon as I press any of the buttons to lower the jacks it immediately turns off.
The aquahot turned on as soon as I plugged it in, even tho I have the hot water switch turned off. But I have zero water pressure on the hot side, cold water works at all the fixtures, but no pressure on hot. Assuming there is a shutoff that I am just missing somewhere, but I sure can't find it.
I have checked at the water manifold and they are all turned on. Since none of the fixtures have any pressure, I'm guessing the shutoff is before the manifold.
They did get it winterized the first winter it was impounded, and I flushed antifreeze out of the lines when I connected city water pressure, at least on the cold side.
I am currently at home and it's currently sitting at the camp grounds, so if you ask me what brand any of the items are, I will have to wait until I get back over there tomorrow night to find out the brands.
It did come with several manuals, for just about everything in the coach, but nothing I found talked about any of the issues I am seeing.
Any info anyone can provide would be great.
Thanks,
Tim Schafer
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Tim and Annie, welcome to the BAC. It's a great group, helpful and very knowledgeable. I hope someone can steer you on to the fix for your issues.
Jerry
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Tim,,Welcome to the Beaver world.
It sounds like your chassis bat's are DOA, killed, shot. The generator starts off the chassis battery's and the voltage is to low to keep it running, most of these gen sets do not have a onboard alt for charging they rely on the coach chassis bat's.
Hope someone else can clue in on the hot water, aqua hot problem. Most of use rely on Roger Berke who is the Aqua Hot expert.
http://forum.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/activity.php
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Tim,
Suggest you get your batteries replaced before any other troubleshooting. With chassis batteries as bad as you report it is possible that house units are also marginal. What voltage do you get with the charger off? 11.9 or lower and they are totally discharged.
I suspect all you problems except water are battery related. Do you experience no hot water pressure when using the coach tank / water pump and when hooked to park water with pump off?
Steve
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Tim
re:the water
Look in the plumbing bay. All those knobs are low point drains. Are the drains turned on or off?
Also check the fresh water tank fill valve in the same bay. Be sure it is turned off or oposite the fill side because if it were left on it could do what you describe.
There should be two chassis batteries and four 6 volt house batteries. It is common to have a battery shut off switch for both (so two switches). Make sure both are on. Also make sure the charger is turned on at the monitor panel which is often in a small cabinet above the entry door. It will say charger / inverter and is designed so that you can run on shore power and turn the charger off when needed.
Now put a test meter on house batteries. If they are charged the charger should begin to charge the chassis batteries.
Caution! If your chassis batteries are dead and you try to start the motor or even get it started using the hoise battery switch, you can put too much strain on the alternator and it will blow. This is a Leese Neville alternator worth over $600. If the batteries are new and not dry, they should charge even if you have to get a seperate battery charger and leave it on over night.
It sounds like most of your problems are easily fixed and hopefuly you will be up and running soon. Welcome to the family!
Keith
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There are 2 solar panels on the roof and they seem to have kept the house batteries topped off. They were also replaced 4 months ago. The night we picked it up we spent 2 hours trying to start the beast. I had just started it 2 weeks earlier and it started up in under 5 seconds of cranking. We drained the house batteries pretty bad that night, but they kept doing their job for 2 hours. (That wasn't continuous cranking, 10-15 second cranks every few minutes). We finally got it started after pressing the air purge button on the fuel system. I assumed it was for the air suspension, but apparently there was one for the fuel and since then it starts in 3-5 seconds of cranking. As we were getting ready to leave we realized how badly rotted one of the front tires was and limped it over to a truck tire place. Ended up having to replace both steer tires. The 4 in the rear are all in decent shape, but the 2 front ones didn't age well. So that cost me $588 for both before I had even got to drive the thing...
Once started I had power at the dash, to the computer, etc, so I'm pretty sure the alternator is still good. But yeah, I do intend to replace the chassis batteries as quick as I can.
I'm waiting for the police to get me a copy of the receipt for the batteries so I can return them.
I have not run the water from the pump, so far just city pressure. When I checked last night the pump wasn't even hooked up, I'm guessing from when it was winterized, so we hooked it back up, When I hooked up city pressure I did turn the knob for the fill valve to figure out which way was which and I could hear it filling the tank but I only left it in that position for a few seconds, so I will need to fill it some more.
All of the low point drains seem to be off, because I turned each one to figure out what it was and saw water shoot out the bottom of the coach and turned them back off.
It appears the previous owners tried to hook up some sort of water filter because in the box where the ice maker hookup is, it's just hanging loose not attached, and there are no pipes of the correct diameter for it to hook to. There is also some blue pipe that matches the picture on the box for the filter, but the filter itself isn't hooked up, it's still in the box. So for now I don't have it hooked up. However while we were hooking up the pump, the output side of the pump tee's and I accidently bumped the filter pipe and it loosened it enough that it started to leak water, I quickly ran over and turned off city pressure, but this line sprayed for several minutes, and here's the weird part, the last few gallons of water that came out were very hot. So it appears the aquahot is producing hot water, but again it's never reaching any of the fixtures.
We found a shutoff valve on the passenger side, approx directly across from the aquahot, no other water pipes in the area, just a single shut off knob. We turned it approx 180 degrees and went inside to test the hot water, still nothing. Anyone know what this valve is for? It didn't seem to make any difference, and was extremely hard to turn, we were scared of it breaking.
I will try to get some pictures of the plumbing/pump bay so you can see what I mean about no place for the ice maker to hookup.
Another question, has anyone ever had the washer/dryer combo serviced? Ours is acting like there is a belt not connected, the drum never turns, but it goes thru the rest of the cycles. Just curious if this will be an expensive repair or not.
Thanks,
Tim & Ann Schafer
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Tim
re:the water
Look in the plumbing bay. All those knobs are low point drains. Are the drains turned on or off?
Also check the fresh water tank fill valve in the same bay. Be sure it is turned off or oposite the fill side because if it were left on it could do what you describe.
There should be two chassis batteries and four 6 volt house batteries. It is common to have a battery shut off switch for both (so two switches). Make sure both are on. Also make sure the charger is turned on at the monitor panel which is often in a small cabinet above the entry door. It will say charger / inverter and is designed so that you can run on shore power and turn the charger off when needed.
Now put a test meter on house batteries. If they are charged the charger should begin to charge the chassis batteries.
Caution! If your chassis batteries are dead and you try to start the motor or even get it started using the hoise battery switch, you can put too much strain on the alternator and it will blow. This is a Leese Neville alternator worth over $600. If the batteries are new and not dry, they should charge even if you have to get a seperate battery charger and leave it on over night.
It sounds like most of your problems are easily fixed and hopefuly you will be up and running soon. Welcome to the family!
Keith
If there are battery disconnects 5 grown men couldn't find them, lol. We were pretty sure that was the issue with the chassis batteries originally since they were so new I figured they should at least light up the dash. But the dash would only come to life when holding the alternate start button.
Anyone have pictures or specific places to look for them? We checked the entire battery compartment and under the hood and all of the electronic bays and there was nothing that looked like a shutoff.
The invertor is powered up, shows it's receiving AC input and says it is charging. It shows 13 v and less than 10amp
So this has to be turned on for the battery charging to work? I assumed just having the coach plugged in would charge. We have been leaving the invertor on tho.
Thanks,
Tim & Ann Schafer
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Tim, not sure where yours are, however, mine is in the battery bay about hinge level. You have to look up to them. Hope this helps.
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It appears the previous owners tried to hook up some sort of water filter because in the box where the ice maker hookup is, it's just hanging loose not attached, and there are no pipes of the correct diameter for it to hook to. There is also some blue pipe that matches the picture on the box for the filter, but the filter itself isn't hooked up, it's still in the box. So for now I don't have it hooked up.
The MH came with a small filter JUST FOR THE ICEMAKER that sits in that box. The PO may have decided to bypass it, particularly if he used a whole-house filter as we do. My whole house filter provides the same level of filtering as the small one did and has a lot more capacity.
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If there are battery disconnects 5 grown men couldn't find them, lol. We were pretty sure that was the issue with the chassis batteries originally since they were so new I figured they should at least light up the dash. But the dash would only come to life when holding the alternate start button.
MY Beaver doesn't have any battery disconnects either. People here sometimes forget that the three different Beavers ("original", SMC and Monaco) have some rather different basic design characteristics.
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Any idea which of the 3 makers were involved in 1997?
Thanks,
Tim Schafer
If there are battery disconnects 5 grown men couldn't find them, lol. We were pretty sure that was the issue with the chassis batteries originally since they were so new I figured they should at least light up the dash. But the dash would only come to life when holding the alternate start button.
MY Beaver doesn't have any battery disconnects either. People here sometimes forget that the three different Beavers ("original", SMC and Monaco) have some rather different basic design characteristics.
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Tim,
If the house batteries are being charged while the coach is being plugged in probably the simplest thing you could do to maintain battery charging on the chassis side is to have someone move the rocker switch that does the battery banks together and you listen to which solenoid is clicking in the battery compartment. There will be a number on that unit. Look it up and see if it is continuous duty rated. If it is you can parallel an on off switch to the momentary rocker switch and keep those batteries tied together while plugged in. Some coaches are wired so that in the accessory position this solenoid is activated and will allow charging. The other more elegant option is to add one of these units to the battery bay.
http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-82-0123-01-Echo-Charge-Systems/dp/B0016G8RT8?
It measures voltages on both house and chassis batteries and only connects them together when it is appropriate and current limits the charge to about 15 amps on the chassis side. It is a simple three wire install to ground and if the isolator is located nearby the mounting location, you tie to the two battery posts on the isolator. This allows the battery tray to pull out without these wires being involved. The only caution is if you spray water in the compartment to protect this unit from getting wet. Most owners have found the need to have an onboard charger for the chassis battery side.
Later Ed
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I was under the impression that the charger also kept the chassis batteries charged. Are you saying that only the alternator when the engine is running charges the chassis batteries?
I haven't tried putting a battery charger on the chassis batteries, wasn't sure it would work since there are two of them. I could charge them individually and see what that does. But my guess is since they sat dead for so long they are probably sulfated and damaged anyways.
I will check on the solenoid, and see which model it is. How will I know if my coach is one of the ones that charges in the accessory position?
Does Monaco have specs on units sold before Monaco purchased SMC/Beaver?
Would it be worth the effort to call them with my unit serial # and see what "features" it came with from the factory?
Thanks,
Tim Schafer
Tim,
If the house batteries are being charged while the coach is being plugged in probably the simplest thing you could do to maintain battery charging on the chassis side is to have someone move the rocker switch that toes the battery banks together and you listen to which solenoid is clicking in the battery compartment. There will be a number on that unit. Look it up and see if it is continuous duty rated. If it is you can parallel an on off switch to the momentary rocker switch and keep those batteries tied together while plugged in. Some coaches are wired so that in the accessory position this solenoid is activated and will allow charging. The other more elegant option is to add one of these units to the battery bay.
http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-82-0123-01-Echo-Charge-Systems/dp/B0016G8RT8?
It measures voltages on both house and chassis batteries and only connects them together when it is appropriate and current limits the charge to about 15 amps on the chassis side. It is a simple three wire install to ground and if the isolator is located nearby the mounting location, you tie to the two battery posts on the isolator. This allows the battery tray to pull out without these wires being involved. The only caution is if you spray water in the compartment to protect this unit from getting wet. Most owners have found the need to have an onboard charger for the chassis battery side.
Later Ed
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Tim,
On most of these coaches there is some draw of the chassis batteries when the ignition is off. In many the engine ECU (computer) is left powered and draws almost two amps and will kill the battery in a couple of days. Most all of these coaches did not have a charge system that operated while sitting for the chassis batteries unless it was added, as an accessory by the factory or an owner, it was not standard.
You would measure the voltage while plugged in and charging on the house batteries and chassis batteries. Turn on the ignition to the accessory position and measure the house and chassis battery voltage again and see if the chassis batteries are rising in voltage.
Not sure there is anyone to call, the older Beavers are not supported, too many industry changes to have any continuity. There are some good repair shops and the forum to help.
I would be sure and charge the chassis bank well before I made a decision on their quality. They may be sulfated but they may have good capacity. Once you know you have a working charging method while sitting you will be able to sort that out.
Later Ed
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Does Monaco have specs on units sold before Monaco purchased SMC/Beaver?
It's my understanding that Monaco destroyed all build information for MHs built before 2003, another reason why I don't have any fondness for the company.
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Tim,
If your coach is a mid 90s vintage, I suspect it has a Gillig chassis. This doc will help with the electrical portion.
Steve
https://www.dropbox.com/s/us15putll0k09xg/Beaver%20Service%20Manual%20%28Electrical%20Diagrams%29.pdf?dl=0
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The books that came with it and a VIN lookup say it's a Magnum chassis. Not sure how similar that is to what you sent, but some of the diagrams resemble some of the stuff on my coach, so hopefully it will be helpful.
We are headed back out to the campground in a couple hours. I'll do some voltage testing on and off shore power and with and without the key in the accessory position and see what it shows.
On my older motorhome the chassis battery was starting to wear out and not hold a charge very well, so I hooked a pair of jumper cables between the two batteries (it only has 2, 1 chassis and 1 coach). This would then get the charger and the coach battery to keep the chassis battery charged up and allow me to start it. My boost button doesn't work, so this was my work around. Do you think it would be safe to do something like this on the Beaver? or is that more likely to cause issues.
Thanks,
Tim Schafer
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Not sure if this will help but after receiving service at a cat dealer which took over a week due to issues with Good Sam insurance coverage I got the coach back with heavily depleted batteries as it wasn't plugged in. The coach died on the road and the company that came out pronounced my alternator as dead. When that didn't cure the problem they said my batteries were shot. This did get me going but did not cure the beast. I later studied the chassis wiring diagram and saw a fuse depicted in the main disconnect box, it had blown. Using the alternator as a charger instead of the generator was my downfall also having a 125 amp fuse on a 150 amp alternator which supposed to be 200 amp. New fuse and problem solved. don't know if Beaver used the same approach in 1998 but look for a fuse.
Harold
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Tim,
You should be able to attach an external charger to the chassis batteries and see if they'll charge. Jumpering and starting the coach may damage the alternator if you can't get the generator running. The batteries can be charged in parallel or individually. If individually, disconnect the load and separate the batteries.
Steve
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Would jumpering work just to charge? I just want to charge then up and see if the dash will light in accessory position. That will tell me if I have a bad wire or not.
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As far as I know it will. Just be sure you have the jumper cables connected to the output terminals of the house batteries to be sure you have 12V.
Steve
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I will use my volt meter to check voltages. Do I need to hook both positive and negative? I thought I read somewhere that they share the same ground.
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Tim,
They share the same ground so you only need to use one cable. The item folks have brought up about the alternator is usually an issue when the larger capacity depleted house bank is trying to be charged by the engine alternator after heavy use. The starting bank is usually down some also, so that is a very severe load for the alternator and they tend to fail. If your house bank is fully charged the alternator should be able to handle starting battery bank charging as long as you do not have any shorted cells pulling them down.
As Steve mentioned, very important to verify that you are using a 12V point to ground on the house bank and not a 6V point before you parallel the banks for charging the chassis batteries.
Regarding the emergency start solenoid that parallels the banks, depending on the coach wiring you may not be able to activate that if the solenoid switch is wired to use the chassis battery as a power source and they are discharged. Sometimes they are wired that way.
Later Ed
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Well, we got a new Beauty Rest mattress for it yesterday, the old one was the wrong size and pretty scurvy looking, so we opted for a very soft queen size mattress and slept like babies last night :) It's a full size queen, but only about 3 inches overhang the end the of the bed, kinda glad I didn't spend the extra to buy a custom size one.
Woke up to 1.5 inches of brown water in the bottom of my shower, which freaked me out thinking it was black tank backup, but luckily it ended up being gray tank water. We went and dumped first thing this morning, apparently the vent on the roof must be open to the elements because it rained last night.
One more thing to get fixed.
Anyways, I finally got my voltage meter working last night and went out early this morning, found which terminal was 12v on the house battery, hooked up the jumper cable between it and the positive terminal on the chassis batteries, went inside and the invertor showed it was pushing 40a charge. Waited until it was down to the 10a light and went out and checked, 12.8v after removing the jumper cable.
Went inside, put the key in and turned to run, nada, no dash lights, no low air squeal, nothing. Generator wouldn't crank. Started the generator off the house batteries and let go of the boost button, and it immediately turned off. So I'm pretty sure I've got a bad wire somewhere, probably a ground.
Hoping when I find and fix it, it may resolve the chassis battery charging issue as well.
I have it parked at a friends office parking lot for the night, will check in the morning and see what the voltage is at on the chassis batteries then.
Still haven't had any luck finding the valve for the hot water yet. Invited all my friends over who have had or currently own a camper, and none of them can find it either, so I don't feel too stupid. Going to take it to the local RV dealer and see if one of their techs can point it out to me.
I talked to the company who winterized it the year it was seized and he had no recollection of doing it, and apparently is a one man operation and a very crotchety old fellow. Sounded like he had no interest on working on any motorhomes, he only wants to deal with trailers.
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Tim,
Only hot water valve I can think of is at your water bay. You may have a blockage at the aqua hot.
Steve
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Yes, it does sound like you need to find a poorly fastened or badly corroded large ground connection somewhere, Tim. Battery posts are easy enough to check, then follow the negative cables to the chassis bolts. Also the leads to the starter solenoid.
I don't know how much your '97 is like my '06 and most others here, but I'd put some suspicion on the Ford-type solenoid in the 12v. electrical bay (the bay commonly foremost street-side, in front of the tire), if yours is built that way and I'd guess that it is. That bugger powers through a lot of relays and circuit breakers above it on a panel, and its points can burn up; it's a common failure point, so check for voltage on at least the post with the largest red cable.
Some of the circuits power directly off the hot side of the solenoid and if the battery chassis grounds and all are good, they should be working components. But the circuits on the downflow side of the solenoid will only work if that solenoid functions properly - and on mine the engine ECM, instrument panel, ignition relays and others all rely on that downstream power off that solenoid, even though my basic ignition itself does not because it feeds off the solenoid's large hot post, so it can activate the solenoid in the first place.
If you have 12v at the left post, then the battery connections are likely okay. But if you turn on the ignition and don't get voltage on the solenoid's right post, then get a new solenoid. There's also an electronic alternative available, that won't burn up, but I guess it's spendy, so many here just carry spare solenoids onboard.
Joel
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I've only encountered one situation where I turned the key in the ignition and nothing happened, and that was after messing around with the remote start in the rear service bay. I have no idea whether this coach under discussion has one, but if so you might look at it. My solution was to "reset" the system by cutting off the chassis batteries using the switch which disconnects them. If that's not something you have then you could simply pull the ground temporarily to switch it off. Just an idea.
Mike
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Mine does have the front/off/rear switch in the engine control compartment, we have tried flipping that switch, but have not tried disconnecting the ground.
I will check the whole left side of the 12v connectors in the front compartment, there is a solenoid at the bottom, I will check voltage there as well. That just has the hot side of the 12v tho and not a ground, correct?
If those all test correct, I will disconnect the ground from the chassis batteries for a little while and see if that resets anything.
I won't probably get back to it til tomorrow late afternoon, but i will post my results.
Thanks again for all of your inputs!
Tim
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Tim,
I doubt that your issue is a ground issue. Be sure the battery connections are tight and corrosion free as a prerequisite. The item you mentioned, the solenoid at the bottom of the copper busses in the electrical bay is activated by the key switch. Measure if you have 12v to ground on the left copper buss. If so the connections at the battery for the chassis set are fine. If not you probably have a main fuse in the rear battery bay that is open or a battery switch you have not found yet.
Once you have 12V on the left buss measure the right buss to ground with the key on, that should toggle to 12V vs zero volts with the key switch off. If it does not, check the small wires on the solenoid, see if 12V there toggles on and off with the key. If it does the solenoid is bad. If not check back at the key switch and see if 12V is present and if the key toggles that 12V on and off on the ignition wire. If not it is the key switch or the rear start switching could possibly be disabling getting voltage to the switch but I think that is less likely. In this case you need to trace where the ignition switch 12V is sourced and why you do not have it at the switch.
Later Ed
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Tim
Some of the older coaches have been know to plug up with sediment,
one way to check is hook up water direct to the hot water line
Hope this helps
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Tim,
If I recall, under the cover of the AquaHot (421/12) there is a standard gate valve on one of the lines. I don't recall exactly what it's for because I've never had to turn it. This is just from memory, and I may be completely wrong, but it might be worth taking the cover off the AquaHot and taking a look.
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My service tech figured out the generator and jack issue, apparently the idiot the police department hired to put in new batteries left one of the battery cables unhooked and either stashed it behind the batteries or it fell back there. But the fact it wouldn't start after putting in new batteries, you would have thought he would have gone back and figured out he missed the cable.
So my generator will stay running now, I can start the coach off the chassis batteries now and my jacks work.
Still having an issue with my aquahot, after emailing them with what it was doing, their response was that it sounded like their was corrosion or some sort of blockage in the system and wants us to run vinegar thru the system under pressure. I bought my service guy 5 gallons of vinegar, just need to get him to find the time to rig up some pipes a bucket and a sump pump to try to get the vinegar thru the system.
Anyone ever have any issues with an aquahot plugging up?
Thanks,
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Hello Tim
Yes, I have ran into plugging of the older units, the use of vinegar is about the only safe way to remove the blockage.
Notice I said (SAFE)
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Is it safe to run the vinegar thru the whole water system? or should we try to only run it thru the aquahot system.
If it's safe to run thru the whole system we could just dump the vinegar in the fresh water tank and turn on the pump.
Otherwise we have to rig up pipes, buckets and sump pumps......
Thanks,
Tim & Ann
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Is it safe to run the vinegar thru the whole water system? or should we try to only run it thru the aquahot system.
If it's safe to run thru the whole system we could just dump the vinegar in the fresh water tank and turn on the pump.
Otherwise we have to rig up pipes, buckets and sump pumps......
Thanks,
Tim & Ann
My "easiest way" woud be to do it the way one would winterize any RV. You need two buckets and one hose. You may even have a winterizing valve on your water pump from a previous owner. If not, get a hose from the hardware store with a 1/2 inch female fitting on one end. It will screw onto the inlet side of your water pump. Put the other end in a bucket with the vinegar (or RV antifreeze). Put another bucket under the outside shower, turn on the hot water valve, fill the bucket part way, stop, empty the second bucket into the first bucket and repeat. I don't know, but it may work better if the HydroHot is on to heat the vinegar. When you are done, hook the pump back up to your tank and run fresh water through the pump to rinse it. A small amount of vinegar will get into a the rest of the system. You can use city water and flush out all the other faucets.
An alternate would be to make an "adapter" fitting at the hardware store. It should have 1/2" female on one side for the pump inlet and 3/4" garden hose on the other. Then you could use any piece of garden hose as your feed to the pump from the same bucket the outside shower is pumping into. It would run conterminously until the vinegar does it's work.
Attached is a picture of the type of hose I use.
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Tim,
It is safe to run it through the whole system. I would not put it in the tank, it would be hard to get out and the solution would get diluted by residual water. I would pull the water pump inlet hose and rig that to go into a gallon jug of vinegar. I would only open the hot on your outside water panel if you have a faucet there and catch what is coming out. If you have a mixing valve at the heating unit and there is a way to turn off cold water inlet to it I would do that so you would not dilute the solution. After water is out of the loop and vinegar is coming out, when it is reasonably clean, then pour it back in the jug at the pump and keep looping the solution adding fresh as needed.
Later Ed
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Congrats on taking on this challenge. You'll learn a lot and have a sense of accomplishment when 'all systems are go' - sort of like setting up for a space launch :D :D.
Re: Battery cut off - we owned a '96 Patriot which did NOT have any battery shutoff except for the 'big boy' relay controlled by the 'demo' switch just inside the front door.
Re: washer/dryer - had same experience with our '96, would go thru all cycles but drum didn't spin. spent an hour or so getting the unit out of the cabinet (after taking off doors), 5 minutes putting on a new belt and another hour sliding the unit back in.
Re: Aquahot - only thing I can think of is the hot-water mixer valve in the back of the unit. Sounds like it might be plugged (intentionally or otherwise) preventing any hot water from passing thru. Fortunately didn't have to get at mine in our current '01 Thunder. Looks like a 2+ hour job to remove entire boiler assembly for access.
Hope I haven't repeated any prior posts - didn't take a lot of time to read in detail. You will be able to launch your own service business after solving all of the above.
Cheers,
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Ok, got my coach back tonight, I have hot water pressure now at the faucets, but the water isn't hot.....
The aquahot is running, we can hear it run and hear the burner ignite, it gets hot like it should, but the water isn't hot. I did get about 10 seconds of warm water earlier, but nothing since then.
Does the aquahot need to have the burner burn for a certain amount of time before it heats the water? I thought on demand meant as soon as the burner ignited it would start producing it almost immediately.
Again, forgive my basic knowledge of the way things work.
I'm afraid to leave it running without knowing how long it should run before water is ready to be used.
I do have it plugged into 50amp, so the electric heater will probably heat it up some, but would like to know the correct way of using it before I leave it running for any period of time.
In my kitchen there are the two switches, one for the heater and one for the pump, since I'm hooked up to city pressure, do I need to turn on the pump too to get hot water?
I also have the pump control up front where the tank gauges are.
I ended up having to replace the radiator cap on the aquahot, the repair shop had the aquahot running when I got there tonight and it was leaking antifreeze from around the cap, when we took the cap off it came apart into 3 pieces. So I went and bought a new one, however it doesn't have the safety release switch on the top, the only one they had that had the switch was the 16lbs model, it had a 13lbs cap on it, so I wanted to match that.
Anyone know if the 16lbs one would be fine? or should i stick with the 13lbs one and just not worry about the safety release switch.
Thanks for any advice you can provide. We are going to sleep in it tonight and I was kinda hoping for a hot shower in the morning, but I guess I can walk over to the showers at the campground.
Thank,
Tim & Ann
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Tim,
"I thought on demand meant as soon as the burner ignited it would start producing it almost immediately." No. This is not an instand demand system. It is a continuous system, but only when up, running and hot.
"I'm afraid to leave it running without knowing how long it should run before water is ready to be used." You have to leave it running for the boiler fluid to get hot.
"since I'm hooked up to city pressure, do I need to turn on the pump too to get hot water?" Most turn the pump off if hooked up to city water. The pump runs only when it senses low pressure and a need for water. So, if you have the normally higher city pressure the pump will never run even if you leave the switch on. If the city water pressure drops, the pump will respond by pumping water from your tank. It will not boost or "suck" water through the city's spigot.
The Aqua/HydroHot units heat a fluid in a contained tank to somewhere around 180 degrees. While driving the engine does it, there is a small electric element that does it and there is a diesel burner that does it. Any or all can be doing it at the same time.
The fluid will get up to around 180. The hot water gets hot by circulating through the hotter fluid. Once the fluid is hot, the diesel has about 50,000 BTUs of power to keep it hot continously if you shower that long. It does not work at all like a continuous houshold water heater.
Our "normal" way of running it was to leave the electric on 24/7. Since the electric element is about 5,000 BTUs of power it can't keep up with a long shower. Short showers are possible on electric only, but far less fun. If you have long, beautiful hair, there may not be enough hot water to completely rinse from a thorough shampoo. The hot water cools the fluid it circulates in faster than the element can warm it. So for normal showers, we would turn the diesel on. Diesel stinks. If you don't smell it your neighbor does, so when the shower was over, we turned it off.
If it is cool outside and you are using the system for heat, the electric element can keep up if it is about 50 or 55 outside. The electric element has about the same power as a single bathroom space heater. Below 50 you have to have the diesel on to get enough BTUs of heat.
To keep from gassing ourselves and neighbors we ALWAYS connected an exhaust extension called a Genturi.
Starting from stone cold, it could take up to a couple hours for the electric element to get the fluid hot enough for hot water. The diesel should do it in about 15 or 20 minutes.
Leaving them on all the time hurts nothing except nasal passages. In fact, there is a reasonable theory that infrequent use does more harm than regular use.
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My coach is a 2004, a bit newer, so my opinions here are relative to what I know about it. I have an AquaHot. I can run the diesel burner and electric water heater element at the same time. The thermostats for the water heater element are set about 10 F hotter than for the diesel burner. The electric element turns on and off at 185 F and 210 F, respectively. The diesel burner turns on and off at 175 F and 200 F, respectively. Thus, if the electric element can keep the water at operating temperature, then the diesel burner will not turn on.
It takes awhile for the electric element to heat water. It is not a fast water heating device. On the other hand, the diesel burner is designed to keep water hot for continuous use... like an extra long, hot shower. Thus, the diesel burner will heat water in 5 to 10 minutes.
If you are connected to shore water and its pressure is sufficient for your liking, then you do not need to operate the onboard water pump. Sometimes if the shore water pressure is low, then turn on the pump... but you will need water in the fresh water tank because I believe the onboard pump pulls from the onboard fresh water tank.
Your AquaHot will have a tempering valve which mixes the heated fresh water with cold fresh water at a preset ratio to reduce the risk of scalding. Obviously, 175 F to 210 F water is way too hot to use at the sinks and shower. I have read several threads on this Forum where the tempering valves have been a problem and required replacement. If you know your diesel burner and/or heating element are working and you're not getting hot water at a faucet or the shower, then the tempering valve could be defective.
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Tim,
Following up on Dave's comments re the "tempering" or mixing valve. There is an adjusting knob on it. Sometimes you can get it working by turning the knob back and forth, but be sure to set it back to it's original position.
Steve
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Anyone got a picture of what the tempering valve looks like? I'm wondering if my mechanic "fixed" my hot water pressure by just opening that knob up all the way and what I am actually getting at the faucet is just all the cold water that is going around the aquahot.
They didn't end up running the vinegar thru the system, because they thought they had resolved the issue.
Thanks,
Tim & Ann
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Have you let the diesel burner run until it cycles off?
The one on our 2003 HydroHot looked like this.
It would not adjust so far that you would get no hot water. It would go from warm to scalding, but not cold. On ours it was in the back near where the water entered cold and exited as hot. To get to it you crawled under and removed a dozen screws from a sheet metal protection panel. If you have long arms and there is space I could reach over the top of the HydroHot and feel it in the back. It was on the forward side.
Older HydroHots did not have separate thermostats for what was considered "better" AquaHots. A single thermostat turns on both the electric and diesel at the same time. They can still be run together or separately.
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I found a valve underneath the burner unit that is next to impossible to reach with the burner in place, it seems to connect the hot to the cold line. I'll bet that might be it.
I'll see if I can reach it with a long screwdriver and see if it will turn.
Thanks,
Tim & Ann
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I turned it all the way one direction and had cold water, I turned it all the way the other direction and I now have luke warm water.
Not enough to shower with, but it's definitely warmer than what's coming out of the cold side of the faucet. I have the diesel burner turned on but it's not running, assuming because it's already at operating temperature.
Tim & Ann
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Just spoke with Jim at Aquahot, he agrees that it sounds like the tempering valve, rebuild kit $110..... He did say there was a chance I could disassemble it and just clean it up and it might work, so will try that first.
Tim & Ann
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From the sound of some of your earlier posts, you might find it clogged with Cocaine! Don't get too close.
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It was 100 lbs of marijuana and 5 grams of meth, plus another 100 lbs of marijuana in their house. All in duffle bags with each bag labeled with the type of dope.
They had gotten caught once before coming back from the East coast with $100,000 that Chicago Police seized and then sent them on their way.
And they still got sentenced to probation....... I guess they felt them losing a $60k motor home was punishment enough.
Oh well, their loss, our gain :)
Tim & Ann
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Tim,
Take a photo of your tempering valve and you should be able to buy a rebuild kit at any plumbing supply house at a fraction of that cost. If the unit has a brand and number on it that will help. One of the main tempering valve brands was Watts which is likely what you have.
Later Ed
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This will sound odd, but please double check that the outside shower valves are off. If they are on and the shower head is off, weird things happen.
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When you say valves, do you mean the shutoffs on the water panel, or just the faucet knobs?
Tim & Ann
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This will sound odd, but please double check that the outside shower valves are off. If they are on and the shower head is off, weird things happen.
Bill has brought up a very important issue which I learned the hard way several years ago. Apparently some coaches are designed to mix the hot and cold if the outside shower valves are on which results in nothing but warm water from all other sources within the coach. The first time I encountered this was after leaving the valves on after doing some exterior cleanup. The second time was once when DW activated the "pause" button on the inside shower instead of turning the water off at the wall valve. Same thing happened both times....nothing but lukewarm water everywhere. Although this seems to be standard in many coaches I have never seen this information documented in any of the owner manuals.
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Tim - Our coach does not have an outside shower. Many coaches, 5th wheels, campers, etc., do have them. Our coach has an outside faucet in the water bay, but no outside shower. The point is you may not have an outside shower. I don't know.
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Mine has a faucet with a spray nozzle (like in a typical kitchen sink), I am assuming they consider that a shower. I checked and both knobs are in the off position. On the manifold board there is no shutoff for the outside shower.
Aquahot had me check the water line coming out of the AH pre mixer valve and it's hot enough you don't want to touch it long, the line coming out from the mixer valve is cold. He considered that pretty definitive evidence that it is the mixer valve.
I will crop a photo of the valve from the service manual and send it around the local plumbing supply places and see if any of them have a similar valve.
That will have to wait til Monday tho. For now we are just using the showers at the campground and boiling water to wash dishes.
We have a Keureg to make drinkable hot water for cocoa, tea, etc.
Thanks again for everyone's help with this.
Tim & Ann
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Well, it was the tempering valve. Once my mechanic got it removed the hot inlet side was completely closed off except for a pin hole in the middle. The mix outlet was about 50% closed off as well. Nobody in our area had the valve in stock, they could all order it, and nobody had it for much less than AquaHot so I found one on Amazon with over night prime shipping for $78. Lowes does show they carry it for $8.75, but none of the stores within 100+ miles had it in stock.
We fired up the diesel heat and in about 15 minutes I had hot water coming out of the faucets! So I can finally take a hot shower in my camper now.
We're going to take it camping tonight and enjoy the hot water. Tomorrow it goes up to What Cheer, IA for the big flea market the following weekend. The wife will spend 5 days in it then and not have to fight the crowds at the shower house.
At this point I think we have pretty much everything of importance fixed, still need to get a in dash stereo installed, so will have to figure out the wiring diagram, but that's for another day.
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Welcome to the club Tim & Ann, I am glad your getting hot water there is nothing like a cold shower in the morning!
As you can surley see the forum is a great place for help.
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Tim,
Did I read the words, "So I can finally take a shower in my CAMPER now???"
Gasp! Lol! That little beauty you are in is called a COACH! Shame on you! :o Lol!
All kidding aside, welcome to the club! Hope to see you at a rally some time!
:^3=~
Carol
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Ok, well now I have hot water in my "coach", lol, but now I don't have heat from the heater, my aqua hot only has one pump, so I'm guessing my rv guy must have not plugged something back in, anyone have a recommendation to start my hunt for the issue?
Thanks again for any advice you can provide.
Tim & Ann
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Of course the boiler is heating up or you wouldn't have hot water. So eliminate the burner/boiler issue.
Do you have an electrical switch somewhere that says "Heatercraft" with High, Off, Low settings? It turns on the fan pushing air thru the small interior radiators. We (I) fumbled for 1/2 hour with no heat discovered had turned the switch to Off by mistake, duh...
Second is pump operating to push antifreeze thru piping to radiators? Should be able to hear pump running. And hoses will be very hot.
Any alarms on the control computer?
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be sure you have the thermostat on for heat, and the switches to low or high for the heat to kick on....
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When my mechanic worked on the aqua hot he had turned off the gate valve that allowed the antifreeze to flow to the radiators, turned the valve and now we have heat.
So looks like we are good for the weekend. It's been in the low 40s at night, so we're glad it's working.
Tim and Ann
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that's some great news, especially now that its cold!