BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Marty and Suzie Schenck on February 06, 2010, 08:37:31 PM
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Gerald Farris, I was told that at a recent rally you gave a speach about the importance of removing a factory installed CAT engine cooling system water filter. Would you explain that here on the forum please. I am interested in models of engines and the reasons for the removal.
Thank you
Marty
2002 Patriot Thunder C-12
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The discussion that I think you are referring to was at the Quartzsite rally. The reason that I gave for removing the OEM Cat water filter pertained to C12 engines only. The C12 engine in Beaver coaches has a 3/8 inch coolant hose to the filter running down the side of the engine above the manifolds in a high temperature area that causes a very high rate of hose failure. This hose is responsible for almost all cooling system failures on C12 coaches other than the aluminum radiators that Monaco used.
The coolant filter is only used to replenish the SCA (supplemental coolant additive) in the coolant, therefore if you change your coolant to Cat extended life coolant (as I suggested) the SCA and the coolant filter are no longer needed. Since the filter will no longer be needed you can remove the hoses and plug them at the engine to prevent a guaranteed failure (break-down) on the highway.
If you have a C12 that has not had a coolant filter hose failure, you will. So to prevent a break-down you need to change them every 3 years when you change coolant, or remove them and change to Cat extended life coolant that that last 6 years.
Gerald
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Marty, thanks for the question and Gerald thanks for the informative answer. I for one was unaware of this issue. If there are other significant issues or wear points on these coaches, it may be helpful to list them in a post. I am aware of rear brake pad wear as something to watch for and have already dealt with the steel strap fenderwell support failures.
Gerald, regarding the coolant line. I had the coolant changed as part of a PDI just this spring using cat standard coolant and a new SCA cartridge, so I will not be changing over to ELC anytime soon. I have not changed the coolant line that you are referring to and wondered if in your opinion there is an alternate routing path that might be possible to avoid most of the manifold heat? I also wanted to know if blue silicone high temp 3/8 line is already typically being used here or not. It would take the typical coolant hose temp rating from 250F to 350F.
You had me curious so I just went out to the coach with a flashlight and I see something wrapped in a covering that passes near the exhaust manifold and a small blue line that exits from the turbo area. I was not in a position to crawl under and follow the line from the SCA cartridge. Can you describe where the 3/8 line in question joins the block.
Thanks Ed
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Thank you Gerald for the reply. I have already changed to CAT ELC and have a dummy filter cartridge installed. When the weather gets a little better I'll go remove the lines and plug them. Thanks again.
Marty
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The hoses to the coolant filter are standard 3/8 inch black hose unless they have been upgraded by the owner. The one that fails most often runs from a fitting below the alternator (you have to remove the alternator for access) and down the side of the engine above the manifolds inside a heat protective shield and around the rear of the engine (the rear of the engine is towards the front of the coach) to the filter that is mounted to the frame on the other side. The other hose runs around the rear of the engine to a fitting on the rear of the intake manifold. If you change a hose, change them both, because I have seen coaches that have had them both fail. I know of one coach that has had two failures that totaled nearly $2,000 in towing bills, and believe me when I say that you do not want to have your coach towed if you can possible avoid it.
Some shops will change the coolant filter to an empty shell (dummy filter) when they change the coach over to ELC (extended life coolant). This is a bad idea because the hoses to the filter are such a high maintenance problem. As for an alternative routing option, there is not a good one because of where the hoses connect to the engine.
On the topic of other maintenance issues, this thread is about C12 coolant issues and the only other thing that I can think of is the coolant surge tank. The surge tank on these engines and many other Beavers in this age range is a Ford tank that cracks often. The Ford part number is F6HZ*8A080*B and it measures app. 3 1/2" deep, 6" wide, and 27" long. At the Indio rally there were 3 coaches with cracked tanks. I will address this in another thread.
As for other issues. they will need to be addressed individually instead of here since the C12 engine was used in Marquis and Thunders over an 8 year period, and the problems were not the same with all of these coaches. Just like the brake problem that Ed mentioned covers a little over 4 years of Marquis production, but not the Thunders and not all Marquis with a C12 engine.
Gerald
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Gerald,
Thank you very much for the clarification. Your insight is greatly appreciated, especially given this vintage coach is all new to me.
Time to get a pizza and camp out and wait for the Super Bowl....I do not want to start any fights here ,... but "May the Saints Be With Us."
Regards Ed
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Let me add my thanks Gerald. I just had my second failed coolant tank replaced 3 months ago including new standard coolant and SCA filter. I am getting a few things done at Colton Truck next week so I'll be adding the replacement of these hoses to the list.
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For those of you that have not eliminated the 3/8 coolant hoses that are prone to fail, due to heat and material fatigue, there are far superior blue silicone hoses rated at 350 degrees F available. The current hoses are typically rated up to around 250F but my suspicion is that they fatigue much quicker at high temperature than silicone. Silicone is rated for thousands of hours of use at 350F and does not fail until reaching temps of over 500F. There are also superior heat shields available but they tend to be expensive. Our local industrial hose supplier has blue 3/8 silicone coolant hose for $2.50 a foot from Flexfab as a manufacturer. If the standard lines would last 3 years my expectation is that silicone as a material with these specs should last more than twice that long.
There is a requirement to use the smooth shielded hose clamps, on silicone hoses, that do not have the spiral slits in the band used to tighten the clamp.
If you are not in a position to eliminate the lines as Gerald recommends (which is an assured cure) then I would highly recommend using the best materials available if you are going to the time and expense of changing the hoses.
From a reliability viewpoint my guess is that most of the fatigue damage due to heat probably occurs after we shut the engine down. With engine compartment airflow and constant coolant flow at 180F or less passing through these heat shielded lines it would not be possible for the hose temperture to rise significantly. After shut down wiith a hot exhaust manifold and turbo in proximity and no coolant flow my guess is that the tempeature rises dramatically if we shut down hot. It may be good to idle a few minutes and open the rear hatch if you come in "hot" and let things cool down. I would even consider covering the existing heat shelds with some reflective material like aluminum flashing. Hope this helps.
http://www.flexfab.com/Brochures/Truck.pdf
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We had the on-road failure that Gerald talked about in a 2002 Marquis with the C12 engine. We did a temporary patch by plugging both ends of the 3/8 inch line where it comes off the engine block. When we returned home the local CAT dealer advised leaving the filter but changing its location. He replaced all the coolant with extended life coolant and located the filter on the left side of the engine compartment when you open the rear door. He used high temperature silicone hoses and removed all the old rubber 3/8 inch hoses. The CAT service recommendation was to leave the filter because it is supposed to provide the right chemical balance and filter out dirt and other contaminants in your radiator system. After refilling our radiator seven miles west of nowhere in the Mohave desert we definitely had contaminants and who knows what kind of antifreeze.
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Mary,
I have a 2002 Marquis also and would really be interested in relocating my filter. I plan on upgrading my lines to silicone also. Would it be possible to take a photo of the new filter location and hose routing or short of that just better describe the new filter location and hose routing. If you would prefer to send photo info by Email, please send to e.buker@gulftel.com. This sounds like a really good upgrade with shorter lines and I suspect a handy filter location.
Ed
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Edward, I did not move my filter I removed it. I have Cat ELC in the cooling system so it is not necessary to have one. Although I removed it, I found (just my opinion) that it really wasn't necessary to remove it. My coach is 8 years old but only has 21,000 miles on it. Now it may be that it has not had many heat up and cool down cycles but the hoses showed no signs of deterioration and were of just regular neoprene rubber. These hoses were original to the coach but were routed and insulated very well. Marty
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Marty,
I was responding to Mary's post just above mine. Forgive me if I caused any confusion here. i am new to the forum and I'm going through some growing pains with this 2002 coach that is new to us. My situation is that I have new Cat antifreeze, that is non ELC, and a new filter/SCA unit installed with less than 5000 miles on them. Gerald's input certainly indicates the need to attend to these hoses, and his conversion and removal of the filter is probably the best solution, but as an interim solution I was considering what was done to Mary's coach. The request was for a little more info on her installation as performed by Cat which moved the filter location, used silicone hoses, and rerouteded them. If they are now shorter, routed for the most part away from the manifold heat source, and the filter is convenient to service it would be worth my time and effort to take a hard look at this option.
Regards Ed
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Edward, There was no confusion between Mary and myself. I just wanted you to know what I did on my coach. I was mainly trying to say that if you could inspect the hoses and find no problems, you could very well (just an opinion) make it until the next time a coolant change was necessary and then change to CAT ELC and also remove the filter and the lines. If there is ANY signs of deterioration, by all means it is best to make any changes/upgrades or replacements NOW. Marty
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Marty, thanks for the clarification.
I have the heat shield covers going over these hoses through all the high heat areas and very close to the engine fittings. Not an easy inspection job to get a definitive answer. I have about 35k miles on these hoses and they may last but I would rather not have worry about them on the road. Changing these is on the list of things to do among other items. In the interim, with the current antifreeze, I do like the idea of moving the filter, rerouting the hoses, and going to silicone materials. Ed
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About 5 years ago, with 25,000 miles on the coach, one of those hoses broke on my 2001 Marquis. After towing and replacement, the tech showed me the old hose. It was encased in a high temp cover and routed over the exhaust manifold. It started out rubber and with enough heat, ended like a clay pipe, which snapped each time it was bent by hand. I changed to ELC and removed the superfluous filter and hoses, thereby eliminating the potential for more problems. I have driven about 50,000 miles without the filter or another breakdown. In my opinion, Gerald has the solution.
Larry
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Having received an e-mail from Marty alerting me to this thread, and having a coach identical to Marty's, I also removed the filter and lines as I changed to ELC on my last coolant change. (Being honest here, Marty did a lot of the work since he lives right across the street and I am an accomplished follower of the "Huck Finn" method of project management.)
I found, after removing the hoses, that areas of the hoses were brittle due to heat exposure - and that was in areas covered by the heat ablative covers. While the use of silicone tubing helps, remember that the temperatures the tube is rated for is internal temp, not external temp, and that it is the external temperatures that the tube is exposed to that causes the damage - hence the heat shield tubing.
Having spent many years working on both small and large airplanes I have seen the necessity of changing ANY type of flexable fluid line if it has in any way become even slightly stiff or brittle (if it's brittle you already waited WAY too long!)
If you are using standard coolant, I would suggest that you inspect the lines annually at a minimum - you don't need to remove them, just run your hand along them and flex them. If any stiffness is detected, change that line. If you have made the change to ELC, pull the lines and plug the ports as Gerald recommended since the system is no longer required.
The opinions expressed above are those of the author - your opinion may vary.
Jay
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Ensenada. Mexico
C12 2000 Marquis
Coolant loss due to filter hose failure
Managed to add 20 gallons of water in 4 stops to keep engine under
225 deg to reach Estero Beach RV Park/Hotel
Removed alternator
Disconnected 3/8 hose at manifold
Proved leak with water hose connected
To
Tomorrow will run loop of hose between fittings
to by pass filter
Assume return line goes to manifold where lower rad hose
connected as it is the only other hose in the area 1ft below alternator
Upper hose comes from block above and beside alternator
It ran to steel pipe run under heat shield towards trans
Assuming these 2 hoses are coolant lines
Thanks to Gerald for long distance help and advise
Anyone with pics or advise with good description of this
system please text me at 315 608 1504
Thanks. Jeremy en route Cabot San Lucas
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Jeremy,
To make a temporary repair just turn the two valves off at the coolant filter housing and cut the leaking hose off an inch or two from the engine and insert a 3/8 inch bolt in the shot piece of hose with a hose clamp. This will stop the leak until you can repair it properly.
The other end of the coolant filter hose does not run to the lower radiator hose, however it runs to the intake manifold. If you are running Cat ELC (extended life coolant) the filter is not needed and can be bypassed, however if you are running ethylene glycol coolant, the filter is necessary and should not be bypassed.
Gerald