BAC Forum
General Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Keith Moffett on July 22, 2012, 12:21:57 PM
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We are setting up a Ford Explorer for towing. We will be using a Roadmaster tow bar and would like to know what people feel is a good brake system. The Explorer weighs about 5K pounds and so needs brakes unlike the Saturn we had.
So, who has an opinion and why?
Also, the Explorer neutral tow kit requires the key to be in the 'off' position but not locked. This gives power to some parts of the electronics. Is there a fuse to be pulled? The owners manual doesnt cover this modification.
Thanks for your ideas
Keith
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Keith,
I use the M&G tow brake, I love the system for several reasons. The system is very reasonably priced and I installed it myself on my Jeep Grand Cherokee in about an hour. The system stays on the toad and it is unnoticeable when driving the toad. It gives totally proportional braking on the toad and it only activates when the coach brakes are applied, so it will not burn-up the toad brakes. Finally the hook-up and disconnect time is about 2 seconds.
The M&G system does not fit all vehicles and installation time varies between vehicles so it may not be the best solution for you, however if you have one you will love it also.
Your question about pulling fuses will probably need to be answered by Ford because pulling the wrong fuse may negate the advantage of the key being left on in the toad.
Gerald
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Keith,
I don't know what year your Explorer however I have a 2006 model with the neutral tow switch. I am using a US Gear system.
I do not pull any fuses, simply go through the procedure to activate the neutral switch (which places the transfer case in neutral) and go. There is a 12v feed from the coach to the Explorer to keep the battery charged. I do start it especially after a long day to ensure it starts :) and then to run the engine/ transmission fluid for a few minutes. The unit has worked without issue, and yes the ignition has to be in the first position to allow the steering wheel to move. I have a dummy key that I use; it doesn't have the chip in it, so while it can turn the ignition switch it can't start the explorer - just something in case some decided they would like to borrow it.
The 2011 and newer Explorers do not need the neutral tow switch as they can be flat towed as shipped.
Jeff
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All good information so far, Thanks to Gerald (as always :) )
Jeff, ours is also a 2006 Explorer. I would be interested to know how you ran the 12 V feed and how it ties into the battery with what connectors and or diodes. This is our first experience in setting up the tow car from scratch. Add to that we bought an Explorer that has a few problems (surprises) so I am having some sticker shock.
Are you using a Roadmaster tow bar and what kind?
Keith
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A part I have forgotten to mention in starting this thread is the difference in braking systems. Ours is air / hydraulic and may not work with all air braking systems.
Keith
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Keith,
I have an old SMI model TMAA brake controller. It looks like it is new - work fine - had very little use. You can have it if you want it just pay the shipping.
Steve Jewell
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We tow an Explorer Limited 4x4 with a Falcon All-Terrain, and use Roadmaster's Brakemaster. Not an iota of a problem with the Brakemaster system. Sometimes the towbar is hairy to crack loose upon disconnect if the car is at a strong angle or grade; even the so-called anti-bind lever release system can be stubborn. But the Brakemaster and neutral tow kit work okay for us. You just have to remember to double check the parking brake is released, as with any tow system, and make sure the car windows are closed, cuz in the recent spell of heat I often forget, then have to undo the neutral tow settings to get the ignition switch to the "ON" position, roll windows up, and reset the tow.
Joel
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Joel
We just got the Explorer back with the new neutral tow switch. We tried out the switch a couple times to see that it worked. The vehicle sat overnight in park and now the battery went dead. First time there has been any trouble with it and it wasnt low, it was so dead it lost all the settings. I take it this hasnt happened to you due to the neutral tow switch?
What year 'Limited'?
Thanks for the input
Keith
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No, Keith, the neutral tow switch shouldn't run a battery down, and never has ours. The only thing ever really on is the little yellow indicator lamp, and it goes out after awhile if the doors are closed.
Check back with the Ford dealer that installed you're switch. Ours is a 1997, and switch installed in 2006.
Joel
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Just to throw out another option, we've used a Brake Buddy Vantage Select for several years on two different tows with good luck. First was a Saturn Aura (had to pull one fuse) and now the wife's 08 Chevy Trailblazer (no fuses to pull). The Trailblazer is about 4400 lbs but it's Easy Peasy to set up. Blue Ox Aventa tow bar and base plate package.
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Re-visiting this thread as I am contemplating changing my 06 Explorer to a new(er) 11-13 model.
I currently have the US Gear system (Roadmaster) and it works well - or no complaints. The only thing about it is the way it is installed the solenoid pulls the cable attached to the brake pedal - this works well BUT because my 06 (and a new one) has adjustable pedals, I have to be aware to not move the pedals or use the memory settings as this put the brake pedal in the wrong spot for proper operation.
For $ sake I am thinking of moving the brake system from the old to the new, but I am wondering what others think of the air type systems. The M&G does not fit newer Explorers.
Jeff
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Jeff,
I've installed "Toad Stops" on both my Jeeps (Wrangler and Liberty) and am very pleased with their performance. The system is totally passive as you don't have to do anything to enable it once it's installed. The only item inside the passenger compartment is the cable that runs from the firewall to the brake pedal (so you will have to ensure the pedal is at a fixed position when towing). The only "extra" cable between the RV and toad is the break-away cable. The electrical cable can be included in your standard 7 pin light cable. The system provides proportional braking and only applies the toad brakes when the it is pushing against the RV. Installation is fairly straight forward with clear instructions provided. Since most of the system is electrical, you can place the components almost anywhere under the hood. I've had my systems for 7 and 4 years respectively with no problems.
Hope this helps.
Steve
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I am REAL happy with my SMI Air Force One Braking system.
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I also have the SMI Air Force One system and love it. Installation was not done by me though, I had a shop do it. It was more involved than I cared to tackle.
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Steve,
The system you have appears to be much like what I have now; I'd like to move away from the cable attached to the brake pedal so the pedal/ seat memory settings can be accessed by other family drivers.
Larry and Leah, I have been thinking of the Airforce 1 setup as one less electrical connection is a good thing in my opinion - I had problems with a loose connection in a the cable/plug-in which resulted in intermittent failure of either lights or brake function in the toad.
Jeff
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As you may already know, there is NO cable attached to the brake arm with the SMI.
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I received the following response from SMI:
"We recommend that the motor to the adjustable pedals be disconnected or the pedals be moved all the way toward the drivers seat when being installed. This will result in you having to move the pedals all the way toward the seat every time you tow. "
So I am still limited by this unit wrt to adjustable pedals and memory settings....I guess it isn't a big deal.
Otherwise the I like the smi unit because the toad brakes don't come on unless the brakes in the coach (not engine brake) are applied, also from SMI:
"You are correct, the AFO cannot engage with the exhaust brake since it requires air to be applied from your brake pedal to activate. "
I believe with the US Gear (Roadmaster) system the toad brakes come on with the engine brakes. That's ok if they are set up so they aren't trying to brake more than the what the coach is doing; don't need a 4500 lb explorer trying to stop a 40000lb coach :)
Jeff
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Follow-up to previous post, in the SMI install manual is the following paragraph which describes use with adjustable pedals.
"Special attention must be given to vehicles with moveable pedals. Check for proper clearance in all positions. When adjusting the cable, be sure that the pedals are positioned closest to the driver’s seat. This will allow normal operation of the adjustable pedals. Be sure to return the pedals closest to the driver’s seat when preparing to tow, or the braking system will not function properly. As an option, the pedals may be moved to the desired position and disabled. Do not depend on the fact that “no one moves them.” "
So I may look into this system more closely as it appears that it works with them provided one remembers to move them forward before towing.
Jeff
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Yes Jeff, I just make it part of my routine to move the pedals all the way back when I'm setting up to tow. When I get ready to disconnect the car I just hit the key fob and the pedals return to their preset state. I too really like the fact that the brakes only activate when I am actually braking. It has worked flawlessly for us. I am very happy with the SMI system.
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Kieth - you didn't mention what year Explorer you were rigging for towing/brakes. We have a 2012 and 2005 Explorer, both rigged for towing and both 4x4 LTDs. The older one has a neutral tow switch; while the 2012 is just placed in Accessory position (keyless). I use a Brake Buddy as an auxiliary brake. In the past, I've had problems with dead batteries, but on the both of them, have a wire from coach chassis battery to Explorer battery (fused and dioded). While the Explorer itself doesn't have much a draw, I suspect the Brake Buddy cycling off Explorer battery does. The electric feed seems to solve that problem.
MIke Randolph
2006 Patriot Thunder, 45'
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At the risk of "flogging a dead horse", just another thought/wrinkle in this topic:
I just took delivery of a 2013 Explorer and was planning on moving my USGear (Unified) brake system to it from my 06 Explorer; because of the arrangement with the Ford dealer, I am leaving the braking system in the 06, so I am probably buying a new US Gear system (the coach is already wired and has the controller installed). The RV shop where this is being done has suggested instead I purchase the Blue Ox Patriot system. Their pitch is it is (1) easier to install, (2) can move it from one vehicle to another much simpler, (3) lighting is simpler as it uses the explorers lights.
I have reservations about the Blue Ox system as I don't know if I want to taking it in and out every time I want to use the Explorer; I don't know if there are reception problems as the coach controller is wireless to the toad; I am not sure how proportional it is as it isn't using brake input from the coach (that I know of other than brake lights to activate).
Searched for the Blue Ox on iRV2 and there are a number of comments - mostly positive. Main negatives are the nuisance of taking it out of the toad and then setting it up every time when going to tow, occasional glitches with wireless controller and occasional over/under reaction by the unit because of jostling (going over a bridge).
I don't know if the shop wants to sell these Blue Ox more than the US Gear systems (although they stlll have them on hand) or if they don't want to allocate the time to install it - my dime so I don't know why they would balk; saying 4-5 hours. Maybe they are just being considerate.
Any thoughts.
Jeff
ps. thanks to Gil and Mike for info re. wiring the lights in the 2013.
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Jeff.
My US Gear system is on it second coach and third toad. Your coach is already wired and installed. I would just buy the toad parts and have them installed it on your new toad. I would not want to install and uninstall every time I used the toad. Where do you store it when not in use on the toad? There is no learning curve on the US Gear system. You know it works and how it works. It your service guy does not want the job, find another technician, or do it yourself. Get it done and have some fun.
Larry
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Larry,
Same conclusion I came to overight.
I dont want to be learning a new system either.
Jeff
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Steve we have use brake master product for years they have even done rebuilds for us during the FMCA rallies the brake system we now have is 6 years old anc called the BrakeMaster is ROADMASTER's 'direct' proportional braking system. It connects directly to the motorhome's air or hydraulic brake system for rock-solid, reliable braking — brake line pressure in the motorhome controls the brakes in the towed vehicle.
We also run the Roadmaster tow bar. I like this brake system as it is a quick install does not effect the seat location and uses no 12V
We run it on a Saturn view but I also used it on my jeep.
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I'll back up Jerry's vote on the BrakeMaster, Jeff, and ours is also 6 years old. I don't consider the 30 seconds it takes to fasten and unfasten it at the brakepedal much of a nuisance, and it certainly stores more easily than one of those box-type units. At least your new Explorer won't require the Neutral Tow Switch like our '97.
If you don't want to mess with anything much at all regarding the auxilliary brake, consider RoadMaster's new system, Invisibrake:
http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/invisibrake/index.html
Joel
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I have the Brakemaster too. When I step on the MH brake pedal, a little light glows showing me the brake pedal moved in the car. Being "proportional" to the air pressure going to the air brakes, I am confident it presses harder if I press harder on the MH pedal. Yet, I have no idea the actual force being applied. Since the power brakes on the car are off, I presume it take more force that I apply with my foot. Nor do I know if our Ford, with the brakes off, react the same as Joel's and Jerry's cars when their power brakes are off.
Can anyone tell how hard their system presses the car pedal? Is it a feather touch? A moderate pressure? Or is it pushing hard enough to make a real difference?
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Bill I don't have a clue maybe if you had a scottie or 2 and I can give you a ride and we can check it out
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Bill I don't have a clue maybe if you had a scottie or 2 and I can give you a ride and we can check it out
Jerry,
You've "hit the nail on the head"! In my 8 years of motorhome ownership I have not found anyone that can say if the brakes in their toad apply a little, a lot or too much braking. They "work" but, do they work appropriately and effectively for the vehicle weight, road conditions and any real urgency to stop?
When I pulled a trailer that weighed about the same as my truck, I could tell when the trailer brakes worked right. When I pulled a boat that weighed twice the truck, I could really tell. Now that I pull a car that weighs 10% of my motorhome, I don't have a clue if the Brakemaster pushes the pedal with the right amount of force for typical stops or panic stops.
So who gets the scotties? The one who drives the motorhome or the one riding in the toad looking trying to measure effectiveness.
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This is what I did to check mine. Get an infrared thermometer then go for a short ride whith coach and towed vehicle. Then stop and check temperatures of all rotors and drums (make sure you check where pad or shoe makes contact). Rotors will more than likely be hotter than drums. I check mine on a few trips as I ajusted it now they all run about the same temperature (I have all disc brakes). If you are worried about the engine brake turning on towed vehicle brakes install a swith so you can turn off brake light feed to towed vehicle when engine brake is on.
Steve
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This has been an interesting problem over the years with no solution regarding testing and calibrating the effectiveness of the toad braking system. If you went one step further with Steve's approach, it would seem that you could actually reach some level of calibration. If you took your car out with cool rotors and set a speed, say 40 MPH, and put the brakes on for a moderately hard stop, not panic stop just a bit aggressive. Repeat that say three times in a row in a short stretch of highway and then immediately measure the rotor temps using an IR gun. Now you know what the rotor temperatures would be with a set of calibrated stops from a set speed. Once the car rotors are fully cooled, hitch the car up to the coach, go 40MPH and repeat the three stops in approximately the same manner. Again measure the car rotor temperature. If about the same then you are done. If it is much warmer or cooler adjust the brake settings accordingly. While this is not perfect it would make sense to have the car brakes performing about the same regarding pad pressure as they would normally for these stops. The heat in the rotor is all generated by friction so it is a good measure of the braking energy being generated. seems like a good idea...
Later Ed
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The Brakemaster by Roadmaster has no adjustments or settings. Jerry, Joel, (others) and I get what we get.
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Yup, Bill, that's true. And not long ago, when a similar question was broached on the Forum, I sent an email to RoadMaster about it. They declined to offer an explanation as to how they know the toad actually brakes proportionately. One would presume they had tested it, but for whatever reason, perhaps some liability position, details weren't available.
I'm not sure one needs to actually drive anywhere to get the jist of things; a pair of walkie talkies between someone pressing variably on the coach brake and someone watching the pedal in the toad would resolve a lot. And you wouldn't have to be hitched up, just plug in the air line. I'd try it myself now if it wasn't a half-day project just to get my coach out from our side-yard pad, and to a point on the street where the car could get behind it. For a more precise evaluation though, Ed's concept would be better.
Joel
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If your Brakemaster is like mine, there is one adjustment on the connector to the brake pedal. Mine iikes the number 2 position, where the pin fastens the collar.
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That just adjusts the clamp to the pedal size, not the pressure on the brake. That would require some method of adjusting pressure application in the cylinder and there is none. It directly depends only on the degree of pressure generated at the coach brake pedal.
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Joel I like your idea of just hooking up the brake line and watching the action with a hand held radio I think I will give it a try this week before we head south, I'll let you know what I see, but I may still need a scottie to really analyze the results Bill!
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Joel I like your idea of just hooking up the brake line and watching the action with a hand held radio I think I will give it a try this week before we head south, I'll let you know what I see, but I may still need a scottie to really analyze the results Bill!
'v
I've done that. When it was new, I had someone (probably BJ) pump the MH pedal so I could watch the toad pedal move. It did.
My point is that, no matter what system you have, there is a lot of guessing going on. First, there is no way to determine how hard the pedal should be pressed when the power brakes are off. Then, even if there are settings (like on a Brake Buddy) you have to estimate what you want.
A few years back I was in a Roadmaster booth at a rally somewhere. I had not spent money on a brake system yet. I was looking at the Brakemaster because it seemed simple. Someone with a Roadmaster shirt on was standing there. Since there are no settings and it operates on air pressure, a primary design issue is the diameter of the cylinder. So I asked if there were different sizes and how to pick. Turns out the guy wearing the shirt introduced himself as the company "engineer". He explained there was one size and he was the one that determined that size. I asked how that was determined. Expecting engineering math to be involved, he answered. He said that he used a company van with dark windows so that he could ride in the van behind a motorhome (which I think is illegal). He said he tried different sizes until it felt about right. That was engineering I understood, so I bought one.
When a 30,000 to 45,000 pound motorhome is pulling a 3500 to 4500 pound car of various makes and models with the engine off, nobody knows how hard the brake pedal needs to be pressed in the toad for any stopping event.
There is only one exception. It commonly shows up in two applications.
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In fact, if you had someone riding in the toad for the specific reason to apply the toad brakes when the MH brake lights come on, even then the person in the toad would not know how much brake pressure to apply. So it's all a mute point. All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight. I have an Even-Brake. It has a method to apply less-to-average-to-more brakes on a sliding scale. But there is no way to know where to set the sliding scale. I would guess the heavier the toad, the more braking assistance I would want from the toad... given it is applying more inertia to the MH and toad unit's overall weight. But... doesn't every vehicle come equipped with brakes engineered for its weight?
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....... But... doesn't every vehicle come equipped with brakes engineered for its weight?....All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight.
Probably. I assume they all come with power brakes that can be applied with a light touch from a small foot that may even be wearing high heels -- even if its a Suburban. But, what if the power brakes are shut off? Is there a standard somewhere that says all vehicles with failed power brakes will stop from 65 mph in 1/4 mile with 10 pounds of brake pedal pressure?
As you say, "All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight."
I towed a 3,000 pound Subaru for about 60k miles with no brake system. We upgraded to a 4,200 pound Ford and put in a brake system. As we all do, I drive to avoid panic stops. So far, I've not noticed any difference having a brake system in use for normal stopping -- other than an LED blinking at me from the toad.
My personal feeling is that I have not received any braking benefit from my $1,000 Brakemaster. I may have some emotional benefit in the hope it might help in a panic stop.
I do have the added risk of the emergency breakaway system malfunctioning, getting the toad brakes too hot and burning up our Ford!
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We should NOT overlook another aspect of having "toad brakes"....the state legal laws and related insurance issues.
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We should NOT overlook another aspect of having "toad brakes"....the state legal laws and related insurance issues.
You are right Leah. But, that is an even bigger can of worms because the states and provinces are not uniform on the difference between "towed vehicles" and "trailers". Nor are they uniform on reciprocity. On top of that, there are no federal, state or even manufacturer association standards on what toad brakes are supposed to do.
If you look at this chart (http://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htm), 38 states have "No Laws Regarding" brake laws on towed cars. Canada is about the same. My favorite is Quebec that says "Not recommended, but legal." What does that mean?
The good news is that in years of reading motorhome forums, I have not read a single first hand experience where tickets were issued or lawsuits filed over toad brakes. Yes, there are a bunch of theories and stories, but so far no first hand instances I can find.
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I am planning to tow my 2003 Chevy Avalanche this coming Spring. I have an 8,000 pound capacity tow hitch and an Even Brake. I have not had the tow hitch attachment brackets installed on the Avalanche yet, and I have not installed the Even Brake. I hope somebody in my proximity can do these installations for me and show me how to properly set them all up and make them all work together everytime I set off from an RV park.
This power brake issue concerns me. My Avalanche has power brakes. Just for an exercise last week I coasted down my inclined driveway - engine off, transmission in neutral, steering wheel not locked in place. I have to tell you that without those Avalanche power brakes functioning I had to push VERY firmly on the brake pedal to apply ANY slowing to my vehicle's speed. I had to push the brake pedal down to what felt like an end-stop near the floorboard to come to a stop from a slow speed on my inclined driveway.
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The Toad Stop system has a manual "trigger" that allows one to activate the system w/o being hooked to the RV. You can then adjust the brake pressure, etc. Once hooked up to the RV, the system will use these settings proportionally when the RV brakes (including Pac Brake) are applied and the toad is pushing against the RV.
Steve