BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Robert Green on August 03, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
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Let me begin by apologizing for posting this under another forum section and again here under Technical Support. I probably should have started here.
Hello All:
New guy here. I'm located near Ft. Myers, Florida.
In need of information to help mechanic sort out our suspension and leveling problems. The rig drove fine when we first bought it a few weeks ago. Shortly after buying it used, the front air bags now don't inflate. Additonally, the mechanic tells me that when the coach is started, the hydraulic leveling system (I believe it is called an SMC IDS system - no jacks to the ground) pushed the chassis up high on one side. So might have a compounded issue where the leveling rams are engaged AND the front air bags are not inflating. The term jarring doesn't adequately describe the experience of moving the coach down the road.
The mechanic is struggling with the system as he has no material to guide diagnostics. Informs me the two systems are interconnected, and that he needs schematics and technical manuals to get this worked out. Many calls to various manufactures have yielded little data.
I was hopeful he could isolate that leveling system and shut it down, then get the front bags working. At least the coach could be moved without horrendous jarring. Without more information I'm afraid we're out of business. I've found threads that have manuals and schematics for earlier Beaver coaches, but have not found detailed technical material for the 2002 Patriot Thunder.
Appreciate any help and guidance. I have tried to seek out a subject matter expert who can consult with our mechanic (for fee) or could provide technical documentation. Left messages at Beaver Coach, Drew RV, Rob Pierce at SumBum RV, and others.
Thank you!
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Contact Beaver Coach Sales in Bend, OR. The people ROUTINELY work on these leveling systems, as they have mine. They can inform yoyr mechanic or send plans for the system. Henry
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Robert, welcome to BAC and the forum. Sorry for having this type of experience with a new (to you) coach. The only connection between the air bags and leveling system is an air dump of the air bags when you go the set the hydraulic jacks. I would simply start by checking to see if your air lines are not leaking or the air dump valve is not leaking. If the air bags inflate normally after starting the engine, then your problem may be in the hydraulic system not retracting the jacks before drive down the road. This could be a control unit, bad solenoid or even just low on fluid.
I have never seen any technical information on this leveling system. Let me know what you find out and please do not drive your coach if the jacks have not retracted fully....
Karl
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It sounds like the same systems in my 2003 when I bought it. The SMC system was not working so a technician at Orlando RV rebuilt the system so it is now manual only. There are folks on here that drive to Oregon to have that done for about 3K so I considered myself lucky. As was said the air and hydraulic systems are not connected. The air dumps probably do have a connection of some sort. Mine has also had air leveling problems that the extended warranty is taking care of. The problems seem to be in the SMC control board that has been replaced by the manual panel. At one point a jack got stuck down and made the coach lean heavily to port. Turned out to be an easy fix but the Hydraulic system is frustrating because no one understands it. I think I have some info and diagrams on the SMC system in the Coach. It's in the shop getting Changed over to ELC so It will be a day or so to find them. Good luck I know your pain!
Jerry
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Henry, Karl, Jerry - Thanks for the quick reply! Greatly appreciate the advice and guidance.
Jerry - Appreciate your offer to send over material. It's helpful to see someone who's tackled similar issues successfully.
Update:
- I did get some material sent over from one of the forum members. Too large to attach but happy to share if needed.
- My mechanic has made several calls to Beaver Motor Coach, has the name of the expert, just hasn't been able to connect yet.
- Seems the touch pad is a bit hacked. Mechanic is working to sort out the cut wires and disconnected terminals.
- Through my own outreach I have found some highly recommended service centers in Florida for the Beaver:
* JoSam Alignment, Orlando - 407-438-7020
* Alliance Coach, Wildwood - 352-330-3800 (previously the Monaco Service Center)
* Drew RV, Ruskin - 813-645-7870
Had a really good conversation with Drew at Drew RV. He extremely knowledgeable and is an authorized HWH Service Center/Dealer. He regularly works on Beaver's of my vintage.
Drew has extended the offer to help my mechanic. Once I provide the VIN and Monaco coach number, he'll pull manuals, reach out to HWH tech support, and help get my local guy moving forward. If we can make it roadworthy I'll drive it up to his shop - if not we'll be paying for a long distance tow.
Will keep you posted. Thanks again for the warm welcome and helpful support.
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Bob,
Thanks for the offer, but you may have noticed after almost 20 years of owning Beaver coaches, I now have a 2014 Allegro Bus... BTW, unless someone changed your jacks to HWH they are not HWH. They are a SMC proprietary system... Replacement parts are not available except for the manual control panel made by BCS in Bend, OR. This replacement panel will fix some of your problems, but if you need replacement jacks (as I did) you are SOL. I know because another BAC member with a 2002 PT has some internal leak issue with his system.
Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.
Karl
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Robert,
The Manual retract button on the SMC leveling pad bypasses most all of the circuitry. If the panel has power that button should work. Once retracted (if it works) you should confirm that all the rams are up with a light and a mirror if you can. There are small button switches that each ram pushes on in the up position and sometimes they can age and stick and have the indicator light come on for all up when they are not. Once those rams are fully up in all 4 positions the coach should air up with the engine running and level itself with the air leveling manual valves that are run by mechanical rods that are tied to suspension members. If the coach is not lowered to below normal ride height it will not air up.
There are two manual valves in the back and one for the front. If you can get no retraction of jacks check fuses that run the control pad. The main brain of the unit is under the liftable panel on the dash on my 2002 Marquis. The next thing to check if you cannot get manual retract to happen, but the panel lights are on, is the large solenoid switch on the hydraulic pump under the front entry steps. See if the small 12V leads see 12v when you press the manual retract. Also if the main lead on the solenoid has 12V to ground. If it is seeing 12V on the small leads but not passing 12V on the large leads then that solenoid switch will have to be changed. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Karl
Thanks for the information. I was confused by the HWH reference. I found nothing in the material referencing them, only SMS.
Ed:
Thanks. I intend to pass this on to the mechanic. I am hopeful that he can reach BMC tomorrow. Seems the control panel had some disconnected and cut wires. When the rig is started, the rear bags air up and the right front and rear hydraulic rams crank up that one side of the coach. Even if the front bags were getting air, the hydraulic jacks have them stretched out.
The mechanic is able to manually adjust the jacks down, but the control panel doesn't seem to providing proper functionality. He is also shying away from checking the front ride height control valve due to safety concerns.
Unfortunately the SMS manual I received doesn't match the control panel, so we still have knowledge gaps. I'll see if I can create a small image file of the control panel. Maybe someone will recognize the unit.
Another interesting thing is the air dump button on the dash. When checked one of the wires was disconnected. Reattached we can now hear a click sound when depressed, but don't know what that means.
More details as they develop. Thanks everyone.
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Panel is a "Quadra eze I"
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Hi Robert and welcome to the club.
That panel doesnt look like anything I have ever seen in a Beaver, and we have had two. I would guess that someone was having trouble with the SMC control board and this was their answer.
I am sure that Ken Carpenter at Beaver Coach Sales can work out something to get you an original control panel if only the manual version they have had built in house. Since all the wiring in a Beaver is marked for its aplication every couple feet, reconnecting should be do able.
I can tell you that when the SMC system is initiated it dumps the air first. That should be the only shared portion with the air system. Some coaches did have air leveling as well but I dont believe coaches like ours did.
We all had issues with our new to us Beavers. This will get better.
Allow me to second the notion that driving before getting the jacks up will compound your problems,
All the best
Keith
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Robert,
What has happened to your coach is the SMC era auto leveling pad must have failed and without a source someone has converted the unit to a straight manual panel. This is similar to what BCS has done in creating their own panel. This may actually be an advantage at this point, there is no fundamental reason that panel that you have will not work. It has to be wired properly so that each jack can be raised and lowered manually and the jack solenoids and pump must actuate properly. There was one Beaver owner that had a manual control created by someone in Florida if I remember right and the person had the skill to wire it in. If you search this forum you may find that info and be able to call that shop if your current tech cannot get all jacks to work. Once this manual panel is working and jacks are all up then the rest of the leveling system can be checked out. If I had this panel I would not go looking for an SMC panel. This panel also had an air dump position on the key switch which is why the air dump manual switch wires were disconnected, they moved that function to the leveling pad. You dump all the air manually before using hydraulic leveling. You also must retract all the hydraulic jacks before the air leveling over the road system can be used. These systems cannot be used together.
The current over the road air leveling has three valves, one in the front that fills and removes air as needed in all the front air bags and two valves in the rear, one on each side that controls the tilt of the coach and rear ride height. Until all the hydraulic jacks are fully up you cannot test that system because the air leveling valves may be held closed by the height that the hydraulic jacks are maintaining.
BCS in Bend would know how to wire that panel, you may offer to pay them for a techs time on the phone and a schematic of the manual system if they are willing to help.
Later Ed
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Robert,
This is a "Big Foot" leveling system control panel. It is made by IDS and someone has tried to adapt that control panel to the SMC leveling system. If you google "Big Foot" you find their service center in Lakewood FL. I would recommend that you take you unit to them for repairs. Sorry, I am on the road in Utah and do not have my files on Big Foot/Quatra Manufacturing with the contact information.
Good luck,
Karl
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Robert,
Here is the link to the contact information in Lakeland, FL. http://thebigfootleveler.com/uploads/Florida_5-31-13.pdf
Karl
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Robert,
What has happened to your coach is the SMC era auto leveling pad must have failed and without a source someone has converted the unit to a straight manual panel. This is similar to what BCS has done in creating their own panel. This may actually be an advantage at this point, there is no fundamental reason that panel that you have will not work. It has to be wired properly so that each jack can be raised and lowered manually and the jack solenoids and pump must actuate properly. There was one Beaver owner that had a manual control created by someone in Florida if I remember right and the person had the skill to wire it in. If you search this forum you may find that info and be able to call that shop if your current tech cannot get all jacks to work. Once this manual panel is working and jacks are all up then the rest of the leveling system can be checked out. If I had this panel I would not go looking for an SMC panel. This panel also had an air dump position on the key switch which is why the air dump manual switch wires were disconnected, they moved that function to the leveling pad. You dump all the air manually before using hydraulic leveling. You also must retract all the hydraulic jacks before the air leveling over the road system can be used. These systems cannot be used together.
The current over the road air leveling has three valves, one in the front that fills and removes air as needed in all the front air bags and two valves in the rear, one on each side that controls the tilt of the coach and rear ride height. Until all the hydraulic jacks are fully up you cannot test that system because the air leveling valves may be held closed by the height that the hydraulic jacks are maintaining.
BCS in Bend would know how to wire that panel, you may offer to pay them for a techs time on the phone and a schematic of the manual system if they are willing to help.
Later Ed
I'm the one that had the system reworked into a manual system in Florida. I've put the tech's info in the post of same name in the other section. Here are pics (if it worked) of the schematic for the rewiring, the new working manual panel and the old SMC panel that was replaced by the manual panel.
Jerry
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Panel
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new panel
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Jerry,
To be clear, you now have a manual panel that works with that schematic or not? I thought you said the SMC panel failed and the manual panel did not work with that schematic?
Later Ed
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Jerry,
To be clear, you now have a manual panel that works with that schematic or not? I thought you said the SMC panel failed and the manual panel did not work with that schematic?
Later Ed
If I said that it didn't work with the panel it was a typo. I'll go back and change if necessary. To answer, Yes I have the manual panel shown and it works well. The schematic was given to me by the tech so I would have something showing how he wired the new manual panel. What he did is make a copy of the schematic for the system with the panel area blocked so he could draw in the new connections.
When I was negotiating to buy the coach I asked to see the SMC system work and it would not function. I refused to buy unless all systems were demonstrated to be working. The tech worked for the RV dealor at the time and he did it as part of the deal. So I never saw the SMC system work. The only reason I had the pic is that I was taking pics of everything.
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Gentlemen your support has been outstanding and greatly appreciated during this stressful time.
The rig is back in our driveway. RVtech threw in the towel today. He said he tried to reach Ken Carpenter but I don't know if they ever connected. The nice guy from Drew RV tried to help, but was quickly lost when learning that the system is not HWH.
Karl, thank you for making an ID on the panel and sending over the contact information to boot! I'll give these guys a call. Lakewood is ~100 miles North. Not too bad.
Jerry, thanks for pulling up photos of your manual panel and providing schematics. Appreciate you digging up Nandy (?) LaFontaigne's phone number as well 813-409-8717. I'll reach out to him right away.
Made a call to JoSam Alignment today. Super nice people. Can't help me, but they did pass me to:
Lester
Creative Coach
8250 State Road 33 North
Lakeland, FL 33809
863-984-3439
888-234-3439
Lester was formerly with Beaver and is suppose to know these rigs inside and out. He's back from vacation next Monday. I'll be calling him first thing Monday morning.
Ed, I've re-read your post a few times. The disconnected air dump switch makes sense. RVtech connected the dash button and it too is working again. I may pull the wire again as the Bigfoot Panel is indeed handling that function as well. Getting the jacks down completely- can I use the manifolds in the rear bay (where the filters are located) to manually dump the jacks? If the panel has already been swapped then that explains the cut wires RVtech found.
At this time, still no air in the front bags. The hydraulic reservoir was filled. The control panel was activated. Fluid pumped out on the shop floor at two of the jacks, while two others (front left and right rear I believe I was told) extended. Explains the empty hydraulic reservoir.
So the systems are not connected - but they are interdependent as the hydraulic jacks have to be down and trigger a sensor that tells the over the road suspension it's clear to engage. Right?
So if I bleed down the jacks and get them fully up, I should be able to check the ride height valve up front and the solenoid located up front too with nothing inhibiting the air system. Yes?
Another question, has anyone converted the SMC to HWH.
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Bob, I am not that smart on these beasts yet but...as I understand it, the travel mode air is controlled by a mechanical connection, ride height sensors, between the frames and the axles. One in the front center, and two in the rear on either side. What is dependent on the levelers is for the coach to be low enough for the ride height sensors to be in the range that they will sense that the bags need air. If it is lifted the sensors will not sense that air is needed. I probably should have just ignored this part because I really am a newbie like you. Ed and Fred and Gerald are the real rock stars among others who really know what they are doing. So again, good luck and I will withdraw before I cause real confusion.
Jerry
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Bob,
The hydraulic system rams have to be fully retracted, at that point the foot that would contact the axles to lift the coach is as far from the axle as possible. The hydraulic system is no longer supporting the coach. In the ram retracted position the backside of that foot pushes on a push button switch that indicates this jack is in the full up position with a light on the panel. The manual panel looks like it has one light per position where the original SMC system had all of the four switches wired in series and they all had to all be fully up to turn on the "all up light".
When the hydraulic rams are all up, the coach is left to rest on the air bags and the over the road air system that lifts the coach using the air bags/air springs. (same thing) The air suspension now has the full range to lower or raise the coach as needed based on the control rods that are tied to the air valves and fixed points on the suspension. The control rods are preset to inflate the air bags to 10 inches top to bottom plates on the bags for most of these coaches. (Your manual would most likely have the plate to plate dimension for your coach year and model) If the hydraulic rams were extended down holding up the coach, so that the air springs were more than the 10 inch spacing between the top and bottom air bag plates, the air valves would be closed and no air would flow into the air suspension. That is the interaction between the two suspensions, they do not work together but the hydraulic system can prevent the air system from working in this manner. Hope this is clear.
The leaking jacks hopefully are hose leaks and not hydraulic ram leaks given these rams are not readily available. If hose leaks then they need to be fixed, if the hydraulic ram seal is leaking I would check around and see if anyone can fix them in FL. If not HWH in Moscow Iowa will convert your coach to air leveling for about $6K. It is a nice system as a last resort if you cannot fix yours. I think the focus now is get the system leak free, then get the manual extend and retract system to work in all four positions. At that point, any issues that you might have with the over the road air leveling system would be easily fixed given its simplicity and available parts. Most problems are traced to an air leak at a hose fitting or a defective or sticking air valve.
Later Ed
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Ed:
Perfect. Got it. I have a local shop that makes the hoses so not a big deal. To your point, understand the rams may require more effort if not in proper working order. Thanks!
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Dumb question - maybe.
The BigFoot Panel replaced the SMC panel.
The BigFoot Panel was part of the conversion to manual control leveling
If I now have a manual leveling system - is it reasonable - and technically possible - that the IDS Electronic Control Unit (ECU) has been bypassed?
I ask because I am curious as to why the leveling system charges when the control panel is powered ON?
If the system is now manual, would it not wait until the individual switches are activated before pumping up the jacks?
Per the mechanic, one side pumps up and raises the coach at an extreme angle when the control panel is powered ON. Why would the system do this on it's own if it is a manual system?
I thought these manifolds were part of the hydraulic jacks. but find they are part of the air system. I tested each and all are charged with air. Assume these let me fine tune to the correct ride height?
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Bob,
Those ports are for purging the air system of water. They should be opened about 1/month or so individually until the air and any moisture is depleted.
Ride height is controlled by 2 rod/valve adjustments just forward of the rear axle and one just aft of the front axle in the center of the coach. The actual adjustment is made by sliding an arm that is attached to the airbag(s) air valve up or down to increase or decrease the amount of air in the bags. The 2 in the rear affect side to side leveling and the front one front to rear. I think the spec range on air bag inflation is 9.5" - 10.5" top to bottom. This can be a dangerous adjustment as the coach can drop suddenly if the valve arm is allowed to slide too far so you want to have the whole coach elevated so if the frame drops it won't crush the person making the adjustment.
Steve
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Steve
Thanks. Very helpful. Appreciate the information and the safety advisory.
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Robert,
As Steve mentioned those valves have no direct affect on the air leveling except they can deplete the air in the system. They serve no purpose in the operation of the coach except to bleed off moisture. The ride height is set by the valves and rods that I mentioned in my last post.
The activation of your panel should not enable any hydraulic ram and that is the crux of your problem. The activation of the panel should enable the up or down switches for each position but not start any movement. That is the point of a manual panel.
It is either wired wrong or you have some defective switches, more than likely wired wrong. The IDS control unit would have to be disconnected in this conversion and the wires that controlled the ram movement would have to have been moved to the manual switch panel.
The way you would use this manual system is to first dump air with the air dump switch (whichever one works, panel or console) until the green needle on the dash gauge reaches zero air and the coach is fully down. Then using some level bubbles for right left, front rear, (these simple gauges are available at camping world) you would incrementally use the 4 positions to raise and level the coach while trying not to flex or twist it. So each position, adjust a little at a time until level. On the way back down same small increments of dropping the coach, using individual position switches, until all rams are fully up watching the indicator lights. Once up that position switch would not be activated again because is hard on the pump and seals.
The slides would go out before you dump the air and come back in after the hydraulic rams are fully retracted and the coach is started and fully aired up to ride height. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Robert,
One more thought. The wires in these coaches are printed with labeling. You may have to trace a wire from the side console to the brain module in the dash to sort out the labeling, if they extended those wires to the armrest panel, as part of the install of the manual panel. If you can figure out the wiring of one hydraulic position that works, the rest would just be repeats of the same wiring configuration once you have figured out the labeling code and apply that logic to the others.
Later Ed
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Ed
This is the best correspondence course I've ever taken. Deeply grateful for you instruction.
Now that the rig is here and I can inspect and evaluate it myself, this is all coming together quite clearly.
I want to get the hydraulic jacks up completely and then keep the leveling system off. If I have to take off hoses to bleed down the jacks I'll do so.
I'll then see if I can repair/replace the front ride height valve system. As none of my front bags are inflating, I'm hopeful that a repair/replacement of these parts will get the suspension working up front.
If I can get the suspension working then I can get it up the road to an expert and have the hydraulics addressed (which will get my main slide working again). I've got a good list of resources. I'll do some phone work and hopefully find the right man for the job.
Regardless, if I can restore the air suspension, then I'm in much better shape!
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Bob,
Just be absolutely sure that your coach is fully supported by appropriate blocking, or heavy duty jacks, before you ever venture under there. The air suspension can drop the coach as can the hydraulic system and crush you. These systems are not to be relied on to keep you safe if you are working under the coach. Given your suspension issues I would have the coach fully supported with a fool proof set of supports. Word to the wise....
Later Ed
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Great review of how this semi-complex system works. Fortunately, my previous coach was a '96 Patriot with the same air-bag suspension with manual 'ground' jacks. Worked just fine for years except for minor jack seal leaks solved with auto-trans seal treatment and one-time failure of the rubber connector between vertical rod and two-way air valve - thank you Lakewood.
Now have the 'Auto' frame to axle leveling system that I've posted on previously with fix to positioning of black box under the control panel - IT MUST BE EXACTLY LEVEL for hydraulic jacks to work correctly. Happy with results for now.
The two way air valves can leak air and/or become totally disconnected causing symptoms reported of front airbags not inflating because air valve rod maybe/is in dropped position indicating that coach is way high and is trying to dump air to lower coach.
Picture valve fixed to frame (can move up and down with coach), control rod attached to axle (fixed to level of ground via axle). If rod end is high then frame is too low = add air to airbag(s). If rod end is low, frame is too high = dump air from airbags(s). This means if the front air valve rod end is disconnected and has dropped down no air will be added to front airbags. Believe me this $1.50 rubber connector WILL rot out and cause this problem.
All safety measures must be taken to prevent injuries. Can't imagine result of coach dropping on a person... My service center uses hardwood 6" x 6" posts set vertical between lift rails (floor) and coach frame to avoid inadvertent drops - and they know what they are doing...
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Thanks Guys. I'm slow and cautious. Will look at this from all angles and evaluate ability to safely address the front air valve. I have a healthy fear built from many years or automotive restoration work (hobby, illness - whatever you call it) out of my home garage.
Spent a lot of time under the Class A Bounder (Gas) rig, but this big SOB scares me. I have heavy tonnage hydraulic bottle jacks, and 8" X 8" pressure treated piling remnants (my home stands on these) - but I'm thinking LONG and hard before making any moves. Really don't want to end up like the Wicked Witch in the "Wizard of Oz". A crawl to the local big rig shop is feeling pretty good right now.
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Just don't wear your fancy slippers when you crawl under the coach, don't want them stolen!
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One obvious note about using blocks when working under the coach. If you are adjusting ride height, don't use blocks against the frame since you want the frame to respond to the adjustments. I run the coach up on a couple of stacked horizontal 2x6s (be sure to get all rear wheels on them). That gives me enough clearance to work and have a safety margin.
Steve
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So I snapped a quick photo of what I believe are the front ride height adjustment rod, and valve assembly.
RED Circle - Are these two rods supposed to be linked/connected?
GREEN Box - Air Valve?
YELLOW Rectangle - What is this part?
Steve
I agree and like your approach. Figure I just need enough clearance to be safe and to gain access.
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Image of the rod attached to the frame rail. Seems to be complete and intact.
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I think I may have answered my own question concerning which part is the valve. This look like a diagram of my height control valve from Haldex. Just need to identify the yellow box and know if the rods should be joined.
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Bob,
Not sure what the rod in the yellow box is for. Checked my coach and didn't see it.
The air leveling "level" is accomplished by adjusting where the horizontal rod in the green box attaches to the vertical rod by loosening the hose clamp and sliding the rubber collar up (increases bag height) or down. As I said in an earlier post spec on bag height is about 10" but I find it easier to use a level on front and rear of coach to determine sweet spot. You can "fine tune" with lower collar adjustment but I've never had to touch it. Get side to side level right using rear adjustments before worrying about front to back level using front adjustment.
Steve
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Steve, Bob,
I did not recall two valves there and Steve, you have just one. I was wondering if a second one was mounted lower and plumbed in as a replacement for the one that was hard to get to that is mounted above. It would not function without movement of the rod which is not tied to anything if it is a similar valve...
Later Ed
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Steve,
Not sure the level method is such a good idea.... The air springs are set to 10 inches to give the suspension the optimum range of travel. The alignment of the drive shaft was optimized in the design at this air spring dimension. Whatever pad angle the coach was parked on (yours may be perfect but others probably not) would also add to the error with the level method given you would be offsetting the coach to compensate for that. I assumed that you put the level on the floor of the coach.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Couple of caveats; 1st coach must be on level surface. I use my garage or driveway, both are concrete. 2nd, bags must be in the spec'ed range of 9.75 - 10.375. If those aren't met, I agree with you.
Steve
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Steve,
Got it, nice to have flat pads to work on to put things in spec. I was just afraid someone would throw a level on the floor and start tweaking. Life has so many caveats :-)
Later Ed
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Built some pads this morning. The Beaver has landed. Pulled the valve and went shopping. Part should be here early next week.
The valve was built 11/2000. The Haldex part numbers on the valve's label were no longer valid. Florida Springs and Axles in Ft. Myers, FL made the call to Haldex and their tech support got us to the current, correct part. High flow is the key. This is the only valve that will work on RVs. The standard flow will apparently not respond fast enough. Tech stated they've had windshield crack on rigs with the incorrect valve/flow when the suspension hardened up.
KN27210 - VALVE ONLY. High flow
RN10JC - Linkage Repair Kit
New skylight in the bathroom tomorrow. Back to the suspension next week.
Any suggestion on how to safely release the hydraulic pressure on the jacks?
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A common failure point on the ride height valve linkage is that rubber boot/hose clamp in your photo, Robert. You know where to look the next time.
By the way, your photos are coming through pretty small and in low res. 20kb is going too low. Pix are best-looking and still within Forum guidelines if they're closer to 100kb, or up to a max of 300kb.
Joel
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Thanks Joel. I indeed will know where to look next time. I'm getting very up close and personal with this rig!
Thanks for the heads up on the photos. They start out at 1.2 mb. I use a toll to reduce them to 300 k. I'll play with the sizing next time and see if I can get better resolution.
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I need to drop my jacks back down. How would I do that manually as my control panel is not working?
Thanks very much.
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Reading thru posts twice wasn't sure linkage issue was covered.
Good pic of control valve that is mounted to frame member and moves up and down as airbags are filled/emptied by this same valve.
The rod extending from valve is near horizontal when coach is 'level.' The vertical rod affixed to an axle member is then connected to the horizontal rod by the rubber 'bushing' and two hose clamps on this bushing provide the adjustment(s). Vertial rod should be as near vertical as possible by sliding bushing back and forth on hrizontal rod - height is only controlled by sliding bushing up and down on vertical rod. Takes very little adjustment for signicant change. This cross shaped bushing ROTS with age - keep a replacement in your kit, they're cheap.
The 10" sdjustment is between airbag mounting plates. Important not only for driveshaft allignment but also front axle alignment and resulting steering ease/control. Watched bus alignment center do my coach: first set rear height, then front averaging both sides, only then starting on actual frontend alignment. He didn't touch frontend alignment - one rear corner was an inch low causing pull to one side!
Hope above helps someone, Cheers,
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Frank,
Is there a PN for the rubber bushing? Can it be sourced at a NAPA store?
Later Ed
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According to this thread, you may indeed be able to find it at NAPA, Ed; I'm not sure the P/N is the same for all rigs - I think some are Bendix and others Haldex, etc. : http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23227277/print/true.cfm
Joel
By the way, if anyone wants a little more enlightenment (and perhaps some entertainment) on what's going on under there, this video is clumsy but helps picture things. Note the guy is working from a service pit, far easier and safer than lying on your back, which is not something anyone here should be trying without the coach at least up on blocks. Though I prefer letting the pros handle air stuff underneath, I'm not certain this is the fellow I'd pick... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3Et2_RWFTs
There are more air valve related videos listed there for our viewing pleasure, but not if you are pressed for time.
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Thanks Joel,
Seems like Magnum probably used the same set up and valves, be nice to have the PNs in one place of all the parts involved. I would like to buy the metal coupler and the rubber piece that would be needed in case mine failed. Still not clear on the rubber piece PN.
Later Ed
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Mine is a Haldex. Here are the part number. Note the valve part number has actually changed again.
KN27010 - VALVE ONLY - High flow
RN10JC - Linkage Repair Kit (connector link, hose clamp, and cotter pin)
RN10JE - Exhaust repair kit (exhaust portion of valve only, filter and boot)
KQ10915 - Valve repair kit (for metal valve only)
RN10JH - Horizontal Linkage Kit
RN10JJ - Vertical Linkage Kit
I have found the big rig shops are better sources for these parts.
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So worked to get the jacks up today. The SMC schematic was helpful. I was able to isolate the RF Retract solenoid on the manifold. At the panel, I pulled all the wires so that nothing would be activated when I powered the system. I jumped the power lead directly to the RF Retract wiring.
At the manifold I found the proper solenoid was powered and that it had a good magnetic pull. Jumped the pump with some big gator clips and let it run. Nothing. Jack did not retract at all.
Swapped another solenoid to the proper cylinder and tried again. Nothing.
Tried it with the motor running and with the motor off.
My one thought is that the system may have low fluid. Will check that out tomorrow.
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Hey Ed, don't forget this thread from 2012: http://forum.bacrallies.com/cgi-bin/old_forum/Blah.pl?m-1330799013/. A call to BCS may result in a Haldex part number that's known for your 2002 Marquis, in case it's not the same as a 2002 Patriot. In case it is: http://www.amazon.com/Haldex-Midland-RN10JC-Linkage-Repair/dp/B0046NW0DW
Joel
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Thanks Joel,
Funny that the valve linkage looks pretty standard on our RVs, yet nobody has posted what they use for the rubber tubing which is one of the parts that fails most often. Not sure why the kit does not come with that. Any ideas?
Later Ed
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Sorry Ed, I've not seen a photo or a diagram that includes any tubing. The only rubber that I know of is the black T junction itself, which is what disintegrated and let go on our coach.
-Joel
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Everything you wanted to know about air suspensions:
www.hwhcorp.com/Intro_to_Air_Suspensions.pdf (http://www.hwhcorp.com/Intro_to_Air_Suspensions.pdf)
A test follows...
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Found the rubber cross part at NAPA: MBI RN10JC $4.99 each
(http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/GenuinePartsCompany/NWMDC?$Product=GenuinePartsCompany/378793)
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Rubber cross also @ Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Haldex-Midland-RN10JC-Linkage-Repair/dp/B0046NW0DW (http://www.amazon.com/Haldex-Midland-RN10JC-Linkage-Repair/dp/B0046NW0DW) !!
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Frank,
I guess what is tripping me up is that what is in the photo looks like metal. I have not had to change mine and by recollection I though there was some rubber type tube doing some of the connection but maybe it is just that T piece in your photo. I adjusted my last RV ride height but it was long enough ago that I do not recall the parts exactly.
Later Ed
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The T is rubber or similar; note the hose clamp which wouldn't work to clamp down on a rod if the T was metal. But now that you mention it, one might think it to be dark metal. Photos of it in place on the control rod, though, imply the clamp must be squeezing flexible material.
Joel
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After reading Frank's link to the HWH article, I can't say which height control arrangement I have, especially since I've not seen ours first hand. A tech showed me the culprit when the rubber T link failed, brandishing it proudly as he crawled out from underneath.
My rig's system could be manual or it could be electronic - whichever the Cushion Air Glide is supposed to be. I'm presuming the linkage to the axle is the same or similar, whether the valve operates directly or via an electronic module attached to it. Next time I'm under there or at BCS, I'll be finding out.
Joel
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Joel, Frank,
Thanks for clearing up the T is rubber, I'll pick one up and keep it on board. Joel, if you have the rubber T, then you have manual air valves which is the standard over the road leveling system used by Magnum and Roadmaster. With the fast acting air valves and the outboard air bags, it is an excellent system, that is simple by design. I do not think we are missing much not having the Active Air system.
Later Ed
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Released the upper hoses on the jacks effectively raising them out of the way.
Ride height valve installed. Working perfectly.
Took my 10" stick and measured all the air bags. They are sitting dead on.
Ramco is rebuilding my mirrors.
A new tailpipe will be here by Friday (mine was missing when I purchased the rig) and I'll have that on the same day.
If all goes forward I can road test by the weekend.
If the road test goes well, I'll get to a Cat mechanic and have him check the motor out and perform servicing.
If the mechanic tells us good news, I can make some calls to Big Foot, Nandy, or Lester and see who is qualified to determine if the leveling system can be put in order - then take a short hop North to Lakeland or Kissemee, Florida.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
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Bob, sounds like you are progressing well.
I made a list on a full sheet of notebook paper for all my after summer trip repairs and been knocking that out each day.
It will never end but it gets a little easier with each repair. I actually rewired my electric side element and installed new version of the relay for my aquahot yesterday.
My military schematic training kicked in to get it wired correctly.
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Looks like all has been said about how it works, boards etc. But one other thing that might be a problem if a jack or jacks are leaking. The are normally considered not repairable. Beaver has never been able to even tell me who made them. Beaver Coach Sales in OR wanted my old jack and $999.95 for a replacement repaired jack. I found a repair shop in KY. They are Customcylindersintinc.com, 800-779-5544 at 1220 Enterprise Dr. Winchester. KY 40391 Talk to Grover Taylor. They have my jack now, have been told the rebuilding is to be between $300.00 to $400.00 with a 5 to 7 day turn around. I'm waiting to hear about getting mine back as they received it on Tuesday. Hopefully all goes well! I did get from Beaver an SMC Level System Operating Instructions Manual and pictures of Jacks. If you need send an email to me and I'll send you them as attachements. I'm at wpwsl@aol.com. Roland DuBree
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BCS wanted $1000 and a bad jack to rebuild......Wow!
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I was frustrated 20+ years ago after I had a stripped worm drive on a 1985 electric A&E jack, and they weren't supporting the product anymore with parts. I found a local, creative, and intelligent young machinest with top-end equipment. He made new parts for it using better metallurgical principles than A&E did. A couple hundred dollars, and the right alloys, and worth it. You just have to find the right guy.
Joel
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I guess BCS is rebuilding the SMC jacks that have internal leaks now. They called wanting to buy the ones I took off my coach, but my price discouraged them I guess.
But I have sold one already and two more in the near future(these three are the good jacks).
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The photo I supplied IS of a rubber 'cross'. Two of them are used at each control valve in most applications.
The horizontal hole (just above the last 'A' in the watermark) connects to either the fixed 'L' shaped rod at the axle or the top of 'L' shaped vertical rod, cotter pin prevents sliding off but allows pivoting. Now the vertical hole contains vertical adjusting rod at the bottom or arm from control valve at the top. Clamp goes in the groove on either side (have seen some with two hose clamps) and adjusts vertical distance from axle to control rod and vertical-ness by sliding horizontally on the control valve adjusting arm. Very simple way to provide basic mechanical linkage and keep it quiet.
Every vertical jiggle of the axle while traveling moves the control valve arm up and down. It takes about half an inch of vertical movement to open the valve in either direction - otherwise it would always be filling and emptying the airbags - but those two little rubber pieces about 2" tall have to absorb a lot of shock action and DO fatigue with time and exposure to air. Also the rods/arms may become miss-aligned - not at 90 degrees to each other - putting extra strain on the rubber bushing, twisting it apart.
Just sayin...
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Roland
This is very interesting and good news concerning the ability to have the jacks rebuilt. Kentucky is not a big deal from Florida. I'm going to check these guys out.
My control board is toast, but I know I can get another from Big Foot (my system is already manual). The communication to the pump had stopped, but I was able to correct that yesterday. One of the wires had come off the pump solenoid. BONUS - my living room slide went dead last week - but now works perfectly again!
Jerry posted source parts for the slide manifold (which I hope might have parts for the leveler manifold). I may need to swap some cylinders, but looks like I can rebuild that part if I can get what I need (cylinders + solenoids).
Hoses are easy, and I have a local source.
So the ability to rebuild the jacks means I could have a leveling system again without spending $5,000 or more.
Just keeps getting better! :)