BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: David T. Richelderfer on August 21, 2015, 05:57:28 PM
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Yesterday we traveled to Condon, OR to participate in a golf tournament. Upon arriving I did my usual setup routine in the RV park. It seems that DISH has made a software change that "updated" the "on-point" notification for the satellite dish's searching routine. My RF Mogul dish, an older (three years) system called their "Gin one," used a particular signal transmitted from the DISH system software that tells RF Mogul when to stop searching... that the satellite is on-point.
So here is what now happens. The satellite search routine proceeds normally to search and find the pertinent satellites for the programming package the user has purchased. In my case that is three satellites - 110, 119 and 129. Before the software change by DISH, once the "peak signal" has been found, as signaled by the old software, RF Mogul's satellite search routine has completed it mission. Now, after the DISH software change, RF Mogul's satellite search routine cannot complete its mission. So... the dish just keeps moving around waiting for that "on-point" notification... which never comes... and thus the satellite search never quits.
Newer mobile satellite systems have made corresponding software changes to counter the DISH software change. Apparently, the DISH software change can be adapted to IF IF IF the mobile satellite dish manufacturer has a copy of the original software used by the dish's search routine. Here lies the rub. On the older RF Mogul systems the software was written in Korea (I am told) and the original software is not available... and therefore cannot be adapted. To me it would seem an easy thing to get a copy of that original software from the programmer in Korea. Oh well...
There are two ways to get this fixed for these older systems: 1) The cheap and unreliable fix is to watch the signal strength and unplug the search box at the moment it appears to have reached a high strength signal. 2) The expensive fix is to go to a dealer and purchase a new system. RF Mogul is telling me that will be about $1,500 currently... while the reduced price is in affect for their systems.
I can tell you that fix 1 is not working too well for me. I have tried it twice... and currently I am getting intermittent reception. The Dish software change was installed just in the past day or two. So this is a really new problem.
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David
We are at a shop and have been having signal problems on our two year old Weingard Traveler too. We also have Dish.
Interestingly we were just watching a service tech trying to fix a Direct tv Weingard traveler with exactly the problem you describe.
I dont know the reason for this change but it seems to affect both companies and more than just your type of dish.
Keith
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I think the DISH software "update" change potentially adversely affects all mobile satellite TV systems, whatever the manufacturer and model. If the manufacturer has the source code for the software used by the dish search routine, then that source code can be fixed to look for the new "on-point" notification sent by DISH. This will require the manufacturer to modify the source code and send out the new code to all its mobile satellite system users. In my case, the older RF Mogul system's source code came from Korea and RF Mogul does not have a copy of that source code. Thus, it cannot be fixed and distributed to us older system users.
If Winegard, for example, has the source code for all their systems, newer and older systems, then Winegard has the ability to make the needed source code changes and distribute the changed software to its users. The later (read: newer) systems manufactured by RF Mogul will be updated to the DISH software change because Mogul has the source code for those newer systems.
I was not aware of a similar software change by DirecTV.
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Dave,
FYI...I am running a Wineguard Carry Out using a roof install and I have not seen any issues so far with auto peaking and maintaining signal on the coast of OR on Western Arc 110, 119,129.
Later Ed
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David, I find this information very interesting. Our Traveler had been deployed for the last couple of months so now I'm wondering if there will be an issue after we move. I think I will wait until Monday and than stow it and set it back up to see if there is problem I need to be concerned about. We have an excellent resource available in Junction City so if I have a problem I would rather it be here than when we are on the road. He is primarily RF Mogul but also does Winguard.
Keep us posted on the outcome.
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I am currently not a subscriber to DISH but do have the In-Motion system which doesn't require the DISH receiver to be on while it searches for the 3 sats it needs. The only signal it gets from the receiver is the selected satellite and channel information so it can switch. The only issue this has caused is that the newest software of DISH doesn't want to wait as long for this process to be completed. So, while what I call the 3-headed Monster antenna would appear to be controlled more from the DISH receiver as far as sat location, that's not the way in motion systems work (as they are continuously peaking I suppose because they are in motion). I'd be interested in hearing that what I've written is true for the in-motion kingdome (and others) antennas.
Anyone?
Mike
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I have the old MotoSat system that has gone out of business. It uses the Nomad SD2 box to control the dish which is Dish Network. This morning I stowed the dish and re-activated it with no problem. It found all three satellites within about 10 minutes, which is normal.
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An update: The DISH "sinc-code" change does not adversely affect newer mobile satellite systems. A friend of mine with a Beaver PT (98 or 99, I think) has a Wineguard system that worked fine this past weekend in the same RV park where I was located.
The Mogul tech advised me the system I have, Mogul's "Gin One" three-years old, must be changed out. He recommended changing to a Mogul Eagle system which will cost at least $1,500 while on sale.
The "end around" temporary solution advised by the Mogul tech seems to work for me. I start the Mogul dish search routine, let it search for 8 to 10 minutes until it finds high signal strength on at least two of the satellites (110, 119 and 129), let it continue to search until it comes back to one of the satellites and again shows me a high signal strength, then quickly pull the 110v plug feeding power the Mogul search box. If I can pull the plug before the dish search goes by the satellite to a low or no strength condition, then I seem to be able to get all three satellites' signals adequately.
For now it works. I have a call into a Mogul dish installer about 30 miles away from my home to check on his explanation of the problem and his cost to install an Eagle system.
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From what I read in a post on IRV2 this problem is more serious with DirecTV RF Mogul systems for which there isn't a "work around."
What's confusing is that the IRV2 post relates all of this to a GPS issue that is should be independent of whether you're using DirecTV or Dish. Anyone interested in the IRV2 thread can read it here: http://www.irv2.com/forums/f53/rf-mogul-hd-units-with-vgps-are-inop-260020.html (http://www.irv2.com/forums/f53/rf-mogul-hd-units-with-vgps-are-inop-260020.html)
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Two day ago our neighbor returned and his RF Mogul wouldn't look on and he was in the same place as when he lift a couple of weeks ago. So, armed with the info from David I suggested this might be his issue. Sure enough after a call to Junction city it was confirmed....he needs a new antennae. Right now supply is an issue. The dealer had 5 coming in this week and at least 4 are already be committed but the balance of his order has been delayed. He is selling them at $1250.00 plus installation.
This is getting to be a huge issue. Finger crossed my 1 yo Winguard is not affected.
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I too lost the ability to lock on. Dish blamed my equipment. I have a King Dome. I called Dish and they of course denied anything on their part. Well, there is an easy fix, at least if you have a King Dome. Call 800-982-9920 for tech service at King. Echo Star....who owns the satellite made a change. Dish may or may not even know about. Kind Dome is aware of the issue, today.....they weren't when I called on 8-24. Anyway, they walked me through some changes that need to be made on your display panel. It took about 15 minutes and I am up and running......don't let Dish tell you your equipment needs repaired/replaced.
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From what i've read this is a RF Mogul "software/ Hardware" problem ( that they are not able or willing to correct cheaply ) causing a replacement of most of the system. Many complaints elsewhere about lack of response from RF Mogul and outrage at the cost. . It does not effect Winegard 1000 Dishes evidently.
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I received an email from RF Mogul this afternoon with further explanation of the problem, Mogul's position on the problem and Mogul's suggestion for resolving the problem. Recall, as I stated in earlier messages that my system is Mogul's first system released, their Gen 1 system. I contacted a company located in Kennewick, WA, about 30 miles from my residence, and asked for their price to install the replacement system suggested by Mogul. This company is a Mogul contractor for installing Mogul's various systems. Their cost was $1,995 for complete installation of a new Mogul "Eagle 3" replacement system. Before I capitulate to a new Mogul Eagle 3 system upgrade for approximately $1,500 I will be checking with competing satellite dish suppliers for their prices. The email from Mogul sent to me follows in its entirety - copied and pasted:
A. See the attached letter on Gen 1. The upgrade is $1200 plus install.
B. End of Life Notification
GEN 1 (Wiworld) Antenna Controller and Mount
Effective Date: August 24, 2015
Products affected: RFM2100, RFM3100, RFM4100, RFM1000, and RFM1100
EOL-20150821-ET1 End of Life
ECN-20150821-ET2 Engineering Change Notification
Issue: RFM1000 and RFM1100 Antenna Controllers cannot ID Main Satellite on Shaw, DirecTV, and Dish Network systems.
EOL Problem: As of July 24, 2015 all Television Controllers (RFM1000 and RFM1100) manufactured by Wiworld a Korean Company are no longer supported under their warranty agreements (1 year from FOB USA date (July 2013)).
Wiworld offers no support or warranties after 1 year (FOB USA) receipt of product. RF Mogul extended this warranty to 2 years ending all support effective July 24, 2015.
ECN Problem: On August 21, 2015 a primary signal used for identification of satellite 119W was changed to a different signal format. This change has affected the hardware inside the Wiworld controllers which cannot be repaired or updated. A primary component inside the Antenna controller which controls LNB power is no longer available from the IC manufacturer. A software fix for this would require a full rewrite of the fundamental search routines. Our supplier has indicated this would be a 90 to 180 day project and would need to be scheduled in order to begin as the product is no longer covered under support warranties.
Solution: RF Mogul will offer the customer an upgrade path at product base cost. This is about 50% of the suggested retail sale price. No proof of purchase will be necessary. This upgrade offer will end 1 year from the effective date of this document.
Solution: RFM to Eagle Upgrade Warranty. In addition to the “at cost” product upgrade
RF Mogul will also include a Limited Life Time warranty to those customers who purchased the RFM to Eagle upgrade.
Important! This Warranty supersedes all other RF Mogul Warranties.
C. RF Mogul Limited Lifetime Warranty
This warranty applies exclusively to RFM2100/3100/4100 customers who purchased the RFM to Eagle
Upgrade package. This warranty is nontransferable and can only be executed by the original
purchaser of the upgrade. Effective date of this warranty begins August 24, 2015.
1. RF Mogul will exchange any defective component manufactured by RF Mogul for the entire
period of this warranty. The customer will be responsible for returning the defective component.
Any item found to be damaged during or after installation will be charged back to the customer.
2. All labor or technician charges or fees performed on the customer’s vehicle or any other
premises including removal or re-installation of a RF Mogul component will be at the expense of
the customer.
3. All shipping charges are the full responsibility of the customer. The customer will also assume
the liability of the cost of components shipped outside the United States if loss of an item
occurs.
4. Customer must register this warranty with proof of upgrade to be valid. This warranty is
exclusive to the original purchaser of the RFM to Eagle upgrade and is nontransferable.
End of Warranty
We apologize for any inconvenience’s you may have incurred. Because of the shorter than
expected life span of this product we want to offer our RFM 2100/3100/4100 customers this
“at cost upgrade” and product lifetime warranty as a way of showing our sincerity.
The team at RF Mogul.
RF Mogul
3604 South Via Terra
Salt Lake City, UT 84115
801-895-3362
support@rfmogul.com
sales@rfmogul.com
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After emailing back and forth with Mogul, and contacting several satellite dish installers, I have decided to purchase the RF Mogul Eagle 3. A competing dish, for example a Winegard Traveler, would cost about twice as much installed.
Mogul's cost is $1,200. I can purchase it direct from Mogul and Mogul will ship it direct to me. The wiring and connectors are the same as on the coach now. The bolt pattern in the roof is exactly the same as on the coach now. The size of the Eagle dish is very close to the dish on the coach now, so clearance from the front roof air conditioner is not a problem. Mogul's representative tells me I can install it myself and save the installation fee. Mogul is starting to develop a backlog of orders.
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Dave,
Just noticed Amazon has the Winegard multi-satellite unit for DISH for the same price.
Steve
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But I am confident the Winegard unit won't "slide in" to the same place easily like the Mogul Eagle 3 will. That means I would have to find an installer and pay his installation fee which in my research is an additional cost of upwards of $500 plus driving my coach to the installation facility and leaving it.
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Also Camping World has the Traveler for Dish on sale for $1297 now.....
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Hmmmm.... I called Camping World this morning in Troutdale, OR and asked specifically what the cost of installing a Winegard Traveler for DISH would be. Her estimate was about $2,400 all in... hardware, installation, shop supplies,... including an extended warranty over the manufacturer's warranty - I think an additional two years' warranty valued at $200. The equipment in the box was quoted at $1,665 or so.
I also called a local RV dealer (Broadmoor RV - 40 miles away in Pasco, WA) who quoted me $1,667 for the Winegard Traveler for DISH in the box plus an estimated $500 for installation. Broadmoor RV has had trouble with King Domes so does not recommend them, although they can obtain them and will install them.
With the Mogul Eagle 3 the warranty goes as long as I own the equipment. I think this open-ended warranty from Mogul is offered only with this deal brought about by the search problem due to the EchoStar satellite software change.
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Thanks to this great forum I am sure I have avoided hours of frustration trying to access my DirectTV programming on our next trip out with my RFM1000. I ordered the Eagle III upgrade kit this morning and should receive it within the next couple of weeks. It is my understanding the mounting will lineup with the existing holes in my roof and wiring will connect directly to the existing wires. I was told the existing dish and it's support arms will need to be moved to the upgrade kit and the new controller box installed in my coach. Also, this unit comes with a blue light that I think will need a power source if I want it to function. Install instructions should be available on a RF Mogal website early next week. By the way, nothing needs to be returned to them except their filled out warranty form. I don't think we will beat $1,200 plus one way shipping. I'll let you know if I have problems doing this changeout myself. Good luck to all affected by this misfortune.
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Thanks to this great forum I am sure I have avoided hours of frustration trying to access my DirectTV programming on our next trip out with my RFM1000. I ordered the Eagle III upgrade kit this morning and should receive it within the next couple of weeks. It is my understanding the mounting will lineup with the existing holes in my roof and wiring will connect directly to the existing wires. I was told the existing dish and it's support arms will need to be moved to the upgrade kit and the new controller box installed in my coach. Also, this unit comes with a blue light that I think will need a power source if I want it to function. Install instructions should be available on a RF Mogal website early next week. By the way, nothing needs to be returned to them except their filled out warranty form. I don't think we will beat $1,200 plus one way shipping. I'll let you know if I have problems doing this changeout myself. Good luck to all affected by this misfortune.
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I just saw a mobile truck from Advanced pull up next door so my neighbor must have managed to score a new unit. He still isn't real happy but at least it's getting fixed.
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Correction, my RF Mogul upgrade for Direct TV will be the Eagle 2, the Eagle 3 is the Dish version. Don't want confusion to rein.
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Saturday I got my new "RF Mogul Eagle 3 for Dish" installed and working. I had two problems with the installation. The second problem was I started installing it on Thursday and finally got it installed on Friday, and then it would not find the satellites. The dish movement worked just fine as to its pointing and searching. It just could not see the satellites and would not quit searching until its programming told it to stop and give an error message "satellite not found." VERY FRUSTRATING!!
The first problem I had was with installation. The prior dish, as you will recall, was a RF Mogul Gen 1. As it turns out the Gen 1 dish was installed without much clearance, about 1" clearance is all, when in stowed position just in the front of the coach's fore air conditioner cover. Then, as engineers do, the succeeding generations of, well... of anything right(?)... are designed differently. Due to the design difference I had to move the new Eagle 3 about 3" or so forward of the position of the old Gen 1 so that the new dish would clear the air conditioner cover when stowed. I did not want to lift the foot mounting pads from the roof and re-attach them 3" or so forward. So I made two straps (aluminum 3/16" x 5" x 17") that I connected to the already mounted foot pads. Then the new Eagle 3 dish is mounted to the two straps about 3 1/2" forward of the old Gen 1 dish placement.
As to the "satellite not found" issue, on Saturday I shut the power off to everything - the DISH receiver and the RF Mogul control box - and went, AGAIN, up on the coach roof to disconnect all the wiring and reconnect it all - 3 connections on the LNBs, 3 connections under the plastic weather cap - and inside the coach at the Mogul control box I disconnected both coax cables - to the DISH receiver and from the LNBs on the coach roof.
It was magic. Now the whole system works perfectly. I even stowed the dish again and powered it all down, and restarted it all just as if we had just arrived and got situated at an RV park. Again, it worked perfectly... finding the 3 satellites - 110, 119 and 129 - in 5 minutes or so.
Now on to my 5 tires I need to replace.