BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Edward Buker on April 19, 2015, 12:20:31 AM
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I need a little advice on tire balancing for the RV. I have always been a fan of spin balancing and my current set of Michelins have been vibration free since they were mounted spun balanced.
Now that it is time again for a tire change and due to price I will be putting on a set of Toyo's this time around. My place of service, where I occasionally take my RV, is not specifically a tire dealer but can mount the tires without spin balancing them. I also have a new set of stems for the rear with the rubber grommet arrangement so I will eliminate my stainless braided hoses that go to the rear hub in favor of the more rigid system.
So my mechanic who will be mounting them talked about adding beads or powder/bags which I have never used. I also read that TPMS sensors cannot be used with beads or powder? Not sure if the wheel stems and valve kit for the rear that I ordered from Les Schwab to fit the Beaver has filter screens in them and are OK with powder.
So, how are most of you Beaver owners handling this tire balance issue... beads, powder, screened valve stems or no screen valve stems, TPMS sensors with beads or powder or avoid using it with sensors, spin balance, spin balance just fronts, or possibly no balancing at all?
Thanks Ed
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Ed,
I don't have a TPMS system so can't speak to that. I added dynamic balancers to the Contessa and they worked fine. I got them from Centramatic http://www.centramatic.com/ for about $100/ if I remember correctly. The Marquis has beads in the tires and I've been very pleased with the performance. However, you MUST use long valve stem cores. The short ones will pick up a bead and stick open after you add air.
Steve
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Ed,
Personally, I spin balance my tires, but only the two front ones.
Gerald
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In the past I've had my front ones spin balanced, but my new Hankooks up front were field-installed so that wasn't an option (long story as to why). The truck tire place that did the work said that the bags of stuff are very popular with the truckers and I bought them. All I can say is that the Hankooks ride like a dream, quiet and smooth and they seem to be balanced just fine.
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I have used Dyna beads and was very happy with them. http://www.innovativebalancing.com. Lots of good info on the website. They are larger beads and no need for special stems. I used a TPMS system with the beads. There are charts to decide what size packs to use but you can call and talk to them also. I did all of my tires.
My current rig was done by the dealer and I believe it was spun.
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Thanks all, lots of good information to consider. I will see what some local tire dealers say about the beads. My conservative nature and always trying to prevent problems will probably lead me to get the two fronts spun balanced at a second shop.....just a guess.
Later Ed
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Ed,
One thing to consider if balancing; you never lose a weight with beads...
Steve
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I believe some of you may well want to read the manufacturers spec in regard to beads or powder. Michelin for one I know voids all warranty with their use as of 2012 when I put new set on our 2004 marquis.
A point that many RVrs do not understand is that the tire moves on the wheel. Michelin demonstrated this many years ago with a coach and newly mounted tires. Most would not believe this could happen, but it does. You have to understand the weight of the unit against the grip of the tire on the surface and also the way most RVrs drive with hard braking, hitting curbs and the like of hitting the chuck holes on the american roadways of today. The tire takes a lot of punishment and will move on the wheel without loosing air.
A tire balanced with weights, even on a spin balanced tire assembly on the coach which was excellent, does not have a chance in keeping the tire balanced if the tire is moving on the wheel. This was Michelins point as everyone was accusing them of having poor tires.
With our new Michelins in August 2012 we had on all 3 axles the balancing issue addressed with the mounting on the inside of the wheel at the hub the external balancing rings. There are several brand names available with either steel balls or mercury in the outer ring to complete the balancing effect.
We now have over 24000 miles on the tires and they ride as smooth as the day we installed them. No cupping or uneven wear on any tires. You can see much better testament on these balancer websites from truck fleets that have significant improvement using them.
We previously had a 1991 Contessa with Michelins that we fought continually the balance problems trying everything but the ring balancers as we did like the cost of these units. Now that I have them I realize we probably would have saved more than the cost of them by not having the tires wear out as fast and the ride would have been much better. Just the cost alone in having them balanced, even where we could get it done on the coach, would have been more than the ring balancers.
Some how spending a little money many times does not seem as bad looking ahead. Looking back it was a very bad idea.
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Michelin for one I know voids all warranty with their use as of 2012 when I put new set on our 2004 marquis.
This is another one of those things that gets passed around the internet as truth, but, in fact, is incorrect. Here's Michelin's 2012 statement with respect to internal balancing materials: https://www.michelinb2b.com/wps/b2bcontent/PDF/TB_BalancingMaterials.pdf (https://www.michelinb2b.com/wps/b2bcontent/PDF/TB_BalancingMaterials.pdf)
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Joel,
I have read that about Michelin tires and have always wondered that if you had a problem with a tire and went to them for warranty adjustment that they could just state that the media in the tire was the cause of the problem. So how at that time would you be able to say otherwise. I could see where it could be a long drawn out pita to deal with them trying to prove that the media did not cause the problem.
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Thanks, Joel, Doug, Steve, and the rest,
I can see that for any of the dry media put inside the tires that Michelin is very concerned about humidity/moisture levels within the tire. My guess is that clumping or sticking of the material within the tire would enhance the out of balance characteristics and add damage to the tire structure over time.
The only way I could meet and maintain the low level of 3% moisture level would be to only add air in the desert or use nitrogen with the beads and that posses its own issues of not being able to maintain your own pressure levels. Here along the gulf it is most always humid and even with my moisture separator on my compressor I could never get near that spec. Under varying conditions, moisture within the tire will condense. For me, given where I live, internal media is probably out of the equation.
Doug, do you have a link or a name for the external units that you use and how do they attach? Still leaning towards just getting the fronts spin balanced but I will look at external units and see what the pros and cons are and how effective they are.
The comment about tires moving on the rim with use is likely true but if it is minimal, that is a few degrees of change, then it does not matter. If it is 45 degrees of 360 degrees over the life of the tire that is a factor. I have no idea if this is just an anecdotal observation or a real issue. If it is a significant factor it would lead you to some kind of dynamic compensating system, if one exists, that is not problematic.
Later Ed
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Lee,
Good point about another complication that can possibly avoided. Many people are running beads/powder and are happy with them so there is certainly merit. It would be an interesting experiment to run a spin balance on a tire on a balance machine and get the weight and locations for balance. Then add the beads an spin again and have the machine come up with zero or near zero, anyone been there or seen a test like that? Always curious....
Later Ed
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Well, I'm running Hankooks, not Michelin's on my steers and they are far quieter and the ride is more comfortable. Oh, and did I mention that they were only ~$350 each (plus tax) which is quite a savings from even the FMCA price for the equivalent Michelins. I've used Hankooks for years on my cars; now that I have located an easy to deal with Hankook dealer for the MH I seriously doubt if I will buy another Michelin.
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Ed,
Checkout Centramatic. I've been told they are one of the largest suppliers of balance rims. They worked very well on my Contessa which had chronic balance problems with Goodyear tires. I got #700710 for the front and #600640 for the rear. I'm pretty sure they were applicable for all Magnum chassis.
http://www.centramatic.com/
Steve
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Thanks Steve I will check those out....Joel good report on the Hancooks, what country are they made in? Manny, that is good insight into the 12 o'clock position to add air. For me that issue would have me worried all the time, are the valves leaking or not? Even if I used the 12 position I would not be sure all was well....
Later Ed
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Ed, I believe they are Chinese. Great tires, no problems from any of my customers. Regards Fred
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I've heard that they are Korean.
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I'm wrong and you be correct, Korean, Fred
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Joel good report on the Hancooks, what country are they made in?
Hankooks are made in Korea, I believe. I first had them on a car more than 10 years ago.
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Thanks Joel,
Korea makes very innovative products, is schooled on quality principals, and with the exception of Japan (who would be first on my list) the Koreans would be next on my list from that area of the world as far as manufacturing of quality products. They are also innovating at a faster rate then the rest of the world if you look at the improvements in their cars, phones, and appliances in the last few years. The low price of these tires made me wary, but given good reports from both you and Fred I will keep them on my short list.
Later Ed
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Ed:
The tire dealer I bought them from, who deals exclusively in large truck tires, said that the Hankooks were the only brand, other than Michelin, that he would recommend, even though he could obtain any of them.
Joel
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Ed,
Checkout Centramatic. I've been told they are one of the largest suppliers of balance rims. They worked very well on my Contessa which had chronic balance problems with Goodyear tires. I got #700710 for the front and #600640 for the rear. I'm pretty sure they were applicable for all Magnum chassis.
http://www.centramatic.com/
Steve
I would agree with Steve's reference to Centramatic balancers. We have had them front and rear on our 99 Marquis for probably close to 100K miles and 3 sets of tires. I went to these when I had developed a severe vibration going down the road and rather than removing and balancing 6 tires, I took a chance and had them installed. One of the best things I ever did on the MH ... immediately resolved the vibration and have promoted great tire wear as well.
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Thanks for all the info from everyone. I did not really have the time to order the Centrematic Balancers and deal with this issue given our leave date was fast approaching. I had 6 Toyo M144s mounted. Had the fronts spin balanced and the rears mounted as they were. I have about 1200 miles of travel with them now and I sense no balance issues and no vibration so I am very happy. They have performed very well and I am happy that they are manufactured in Japan. There was a 6 week lead time to get them if not stocked. Dates were WC 4314 and I purchsed them in April of 15 so I consider the dates to be good. I had Michelin XZA2 Energy tires which I loved. By comparison I would say the ride of the Toyos is slightly stiffer but also a little more precise steering wise so it is a tradeoff. The Michelin sidewalls bulge more and the Toyo sidewalls have less of a bulge while sitting and my sense is that translates into a slightly stiffer ride. I am very happy with the Toyos and either of these tires would in my mind be a top tier choice. Just wanted to give a Toyo M144 report....
Later Ed
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Side note. Why not balance the rears?
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Adam,
I was in a truck shop owned by a friend and he did not have spin balancing equipment that would handle this size rim and tire. I loaded the mounted rims for the fronts into a pickup and went to another shop and had them spun balanced.... a pain to do and tying up his shop.
You sit over the fronts and being just a single tire I think it is more critical to balance these. I'm not sure spin balancing the rears accomplishes much when all the mass of duals is involved in the rears. Gerald pointed out this is what he does normally, just balance the fronts. I trust his judgment on motorhome matters more than anyone, given his years of experience. I cannot sense any vibration issues at all so I am happy.
Later Ed
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Ed, I agree with you on Gerald! The last time I changed tires I had all 6 balanced. I was of the attitude that it couldn't hurt and after dropping $3000 on tires, I was looking for any possible advantage