BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Robin Goffrier on October 14, 2018, 04:15:33 AM
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We are transiting from BEND, OR to our lot in Indio, .CA. second leg of 3 took us from Sparks, NV to Ridgecrest, .CA. were in the mountains near Mammoth at about 7,800 ft elevation. Pulled into rest stop for a 15 minute break. Shut down engine. Fired back up and took off, continuing to climb. 20 seconds in rpms dropped in half, then immediately recovered. Three times in quick succession then recovered and ran like a top. 200 more miles and no issues. Any thoughts? Could elevation have played a part? Thanks. It's a C9S 425 turbo. Been reliable to date.
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Perhaps it was trying to derate which it does at excess temps. How hot was it and possible a faulty sensor?
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Check your coolant expansion tank. If a leak somewhere dropped the coolant level below the sensor in the tank, or just even with it, it (among other conditions) can cause the engine to derate, especially on hills where the coolant level gets tilted a bit. The back and forth of the fluid level over the sensor could cause the intermittent derate.
Just one easy place to check first, Robin.
Joel
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Good call Joel. Simple fixes first.
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Doesnt the "engine warning" light come on with a derate condition?
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Robin,
Mike has a point in that if you were getting a derate condition, it should be accompanied with a check engine light, but a partially restricted fuel filter can cause the condition that you described without a check engine light. When climbing under a hard pull, the engine uses more fuel and a partial restriction can cause fuel starvation, but no fuel starvation on the down hill into Indio.
Gerald
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Robin, you indicated you were pulling long grade,and engine in a derate low power. Depending
What the problem is , if your engine temperature is high you will have a code of 173-00 or
173-11 event code that will derate your engine and the check engine light will not come on.
Breaking out these event codes the first code will derate engine power 4 % and the second
event code will derate your engine by 8 % and the check engine light will not come on. These
two event codes are caused from a lugging of the engine on steep grades and there is no
maintance or parts to replace. The reason for the derate on power is to allow engine ECM to
adjust engine power for heat level without doing damage to engine. Last note: I just answered
last week for Ask Dave to Steve Huber the same event codes 173-00 and 173-11 breakout.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Stop by the Indian Well Brewery on 395 before you pull into town. It's in between the 395 and 178 intersections.
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Good recommendation, Rick! Stopping there may not do anything to improve his Cat’s performance, but at least, if he stays there long enough, he won’t care anymore!😄
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Thanks for all the input guys. Over the next 400+ miles no issues. However I have a further situation that may or may not be related. About 6 hours prior to my aforementioned engine hickup I got a yellow "check engine" light. I get them now and then and have always had a cat store run the diagnostic. It's never been anything that's even required attention and they told me that if its yellow, as opposed to red, just keep going. And since we were miles and miles from any community of consequence, that's what I did. Often, after a certain period of time the yellow alert shuts itself off, but not this time. I called cat and beaver. Basically, I'm on my own. I hit the diagnostic readout button and got "ENG D1-A9" CAT said it means nothing to them. 2 questions. Has anybody any idea what the diag reading means? And, any referrals fo qualified diesel engine diagnostic work in the palm springs/Indio area?
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Follow up question. I called Beaver Coach, where the coach was purchased, asked how I determine what the diagnostic code means. "Call the instrument manufacture ". Who is that? Don't know. Anybody know who made the center console diagnostic readout instrument for the c9s?
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Robin, not sure how you got “D” or “A” in your ciphering. Aren’t the code flashes translated as numbers? If so, no wonder CAT couldn’t proffer an interpretation.
The codes are online. Any one engine may not have certain codes, but the numbers represent the same fault across most engines... the ASE saw to that to make life easier for techs. So if you spot a familiar code number on another engine’s list, it will represent the same for your engine.
Not being experienced much here, I’ll leave the analysis to Dave. Have your serial number ready for him, if you haven’t supplied it already.
Joel
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Gentleman, Caterpillar has different codes for different engines and the engine codes in most cases, are broken out with 3 different values for each Code present. Example, 102-2, 102-4 and last 102-7
these codes are for boost pressure and are what is called. Mechanical code. Now the same boost
pressure sensor has what is called a electrical code like 32-05 32-4 and 32-11 understanding the
meaning is kind confusing and many sensors are changed out where nothing wrong with them.
Yes, you can find on the internet Caterpillar engine codes and that just adds to the confusion.
The engine codes breakout with the use of caterpillar diagnostic tool called Cat ET will take a person
to the problem. To some may disagree and yes that is your choice but cannot explain engine
codes in any other form other than Cat ET. The blink codes are very limited and again is not the same
codes for different engines. Ask Dave can break out any and all caterpillar and Cummins engine
codes for our members. Last in closing. Reason for posting engine serial numbers with problems
on the forum . Example engine serial number 1WM tells the engine model 3126 A another serial
number CKM tells the engine model 3126 E the rest of the serial number will tell the build date,
engine arrangement number 210-4225 and engine specs. What all this means it is very important
information that can connect technical advise to the correct engine that will different from one
Cat 3126 A model to a 326 E model. Again factual technical information depends full complete
engine serial number. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Thanks Dave, The thing I don't grasp is how does the average coach driver get the code? My coach. With a C9s sends a code to the dash moniter but that's not what I get. Appearantly it's a code specific to the monitor. I called Peterson Cat and gave them the code my coach read and was told it was not a cat code. I called Beaver coach Sales service department and was told to contact the instrument maker. Ok, who is that? Don't know and I'm busy. So here I sit. Do you know if non cat dealers can access the cat electronic read outs?
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Okay, I may be out of my league here because I’ve never had to concern myself with checking a diagnostic code. But if I’ve got this right Robin has a dash component (button) that provides a code he believes relates to the engine. I’m not privy to what that device is and perhaps others here aren’t either, apparently much like the providers he’s consulted.
My understanding has always been that the engine fault codes (albeit not as complete as a tech with the CAT ET diagnostic Dave alludes to) is available on the Allison transmission screen. Robin, are you sure the button and readout you are using is for what you think? To eliminate any chance of some misunderstanding, perhaps you could provide us with a photo or two so the issue of identifying it might be expedited.
That said, though some here are encyclopedias of component knowledge, it’d be entirely possible no one is familiar with the manufacturer of a 2008 Contessa’s console instrumentation module. Or is it an Aladdin or Sony or other monitor unit? As to that regard, perhaps REV Group’s Monaco division can assist. Or try these guys: http://www.custominstrumentpanels.com/monaco.htm
Joel
Also in case you don’t already have a similar reference, with code links: http://www.rvtechmag.com/tech/82_faultcodes.php
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Joel, think you are correct and understand we are not train mechanics and breaking out
Diagnostic Codes is getting into area where stress will over come problem at hand . Maybe
This will help clear up a few things. Caterpillar has what is called diagnostic codes and they
are listed in different ways so the operator can understand the seriousness of what is happening.
Number one active fault codes that are logged on engine ECM. What this means STOP ENGINE
and do not run until you can locate problem and or call tow truck. Number two, logged codes,
logged codes will show operator something been happening but is not active ( if Code is not active
do not worry about it. ) Number three, Event codes of which in about most all cases tell operator
What is going on but not a out of service. What event code means just what it says , an event
Has taken place but may come and go. ( like a short on switch, comes and goes or dirty electrical
Connection ). The diagnostic readout ECM will tell a person engine hour clock time, occurrence
first time and last time engine clock and total occurrence.for example heat sensor occurrence 178
times will pin point electrical short of faulty heat sensor. Last this is called a logged event code.
many event codes will clear after 100 miles. Again misunderstanding in areas that require a trained
Technician can be sometime very stressful. Myself with all these different monitors on your dash
to help you understand your engine while driving a person needs to understand your Caterpillar
engine has all the fail safe built into engine to protect engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, you're great. Thanks. My issue is finding the actual code, as the diagnostic readout on the coach panel is not speaking Cat. I called Monaco tech in Coberg, Or. They built the coach. No help at all. They did suggest I find a Freightliner dealership to plug in to the cat port on the engine.
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The picture is my data monitor on which I get pressures, temps, fuel info and trip info. It also reads the fault codes when I press the "Diag button as opposed to temps or pressure. But these codes are not explained anywhere I can find or by anyone I've talked with.
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Robin, I will answer your question on the what is called Diagnostic Blink Codes tomorrow
for your Caterpillar C-9 engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Thanks for supplying the photo Robin. That helps a lot since many of us don’t have such an installation and had trouble picturing it. It may now also serve to draw in others that have it and understand it.
Joel
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I have a couple of CAT fault Code lists that I found on the internet (supposed to be for C-13) but even with the lists it is still hard for the coach owner to figure out what is going on, because the codes don't always have the same description/explanation.
It may be the the fault code lists we get vary some depending on serial number (engine generation) or maybe the on-line sources are creating their own charts with their own explanations of the codes. I don't know.
For example if the copy-paste snap shot I made below from two different charts, note how the code 190-00 is identified as "Overspeed Shutdown" on one code list and a 190-0 "Overspeed Warning" on the other code list. Similarly, the descriptions for Fuel Pressure codes are different (i.e. see 94-03). This is just two examples - comparing the lists I have seen this seems to be common (and usually there are codes missing form the lists - like the 190-02).
This makes it hard for the weekend-mechanic to figure out what is going on and perform some initial troubleshooting.
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Mike, yes you are correct and this has been what I have trying to pass on. This is why I spend
a great deal of time helping with my background to our Breaver family. Yes I do have access to
Technical Caterpillar Information that I pass forward both on the forum and at Diesel Seminars
that I put for members at Beaver Rally’s when asked. There is lots of information out on the web
and question what you believe. There is not one size fits all approach with owing a motorhome,
meaning if your engine is a Caterpillar or a Cummins my suggestion stay with the builder of your
engine both with technical information, replacement parts OEM, price shopping with a $ 35,000.
To $ 50,000.engine for aftermarket parts is not in many best interest. Owning a Diesel engine
today, repairs are very pricy but with good maintenance habits these Diesels Engine are built for
the long haul. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Short of purchasing a Cat data reader which is very expensive how does an owner/operator find out which code triggered the Check Engine light?
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You can get a generic code reader - they are not very expensive. The problem I was bringing up in the post above - was figuring out what the code "means" and how to troubleshoot it without a CAT manual (as the code lists I found on-line do not appear to be 100% accurate).
However for the cost of taking your coach to the shop to have a code read (an hour of shop time) you can buy a reader. This is the one I am planning to get
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N4GH6UZ/?coliid=I1BLFXW6JOIL1N&colid=34RG5S9GGW64I&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
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I just added info from Dave Atherton to Ask Dave. http://beaveramb.org/?post_type=acadp_listings&p=5806&preview=true
Steve
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IMHO In a few polite words I will add that CAT and Cummins, world wide operations, do not digress to the furnishing of technical information for their engines to WANNA BE mechanics. In order to be able to have access to their proprietary data you have to be a company certified mechanic to be able purchase and utilize their systems. They take a lot of steps to protect some of their more complex data and only provide it through their corporate systems.
What you find on the open web is not going to get you to become anything more than a Saturday mechanic. When you are dealing with a $30-60,000 engine you are taking a lot of risk for supposedly saving some small amount of $$. The Beaver Ambassador Club has a one of a kind certified 42 year retired CAT mechanic, not an auto diesel mechanic, but an over the road or off road certified CAT mechanic that maintains the CAT SIS program as well as the Cummins program that avails him to proprietary information from both companies. Use the privilege we have with ASK DAVE to get factual information for your coach engine. AND, DAVE does it for nothing, which is just foolish to me. We pay people more for music that does nothing to help with our coach's.
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Gentleman, I can understand the confusion we are having on wanting to get information for
our Diesel Engines. Yes there are many kinds of aftermarket code reader but the point nobody
seems to understand because the diagnostic codes cannot be broken out and the meaning of
codes posted may add into a real lot of trouble, it’s your engine or spending money that gives
a person piece of mind. Any codes that one would think a failed sensor or relay because it say
Boost pressure or extreme temperature etc. again one would think I will go get the part for that
code only to find no difference in engine performance. Why because many of the diagnostic codes are
called mechanical codes that require no parts. Going back we had the push for adding chips and
tunners to our Diesel engine, except how these aftermarket add-on connect into out group of
5 five volt sensors. The only problem with many gigmos, you cannot change the value of a Five
volt sensor and you cannot change the fuel rate limit as gigmos require. The sky is not falling and
you I’ll find the BAC forum is a very outstanding sourse for technical information that is passed
along in team effort and everyone has many years of experience helping members in need.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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but the point nobody
seems to understand because the diagnostic codes cannot be broken out and the meaning of
codes posted may add into a real lot of trouble
Some of us do understand, Dave. I looked into scanners a while back, and though I might yet get one for my other vehicles, I determined that not even a "truck" one is appropriate for my CAT. Your admonitions back up my conclusion. Thank you! Such a unit may not code me down a proper path just because I have an on highway engine. To me it's not worth the cost or risk of a misguided clue.
Just my 2 cents.
Joel
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I, in no way, wish to be a Cat diesel shade tree mechanic. Such is not my reason for needing/wanting to know which code told me to check my engine. But I am a thousand miles from home (and Peterson Cat) and I have a check engine
light which will not reset. There are no Cat or Freightliner shops within 75 - 100 miles and I have engaged a mechanic, who says he can decipher the warning, to come to my location to let me know if I can return home without either damaging the engine or expecting additional related issues. It is interesting that manufacturers provide these basically blind warnings which certainly concern an operator but from the operators stance provide nothing practically useful beyond that. And it usually hits on some mountain pass smack in the middle of nowhere. And for what its worth, a service call down here runs between $125 and $250 before the clock starts and check engine lights a not an infreequent occurance on a C9S.
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Robin, I can help you with your question. If the diagnostic light starts to flash durning normal
engine operation and lights shuts off, an intermittent fault may have occurred. If a fault will be
logged into the ECM. In cases like this, it is not necessary to stop the engine because of an light
On/off intermittent. At later time should retrieve the logged code and should review the information
in order to see the nature of what was happening. At same time a person should take observation
what could have caused light on/ off . First checking low power driving, limits of engine speed and
excessive smoke and color of smoke. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Gentleman, forgive me for taking up so much space but there has been great input on a very
important subject that affects all of us. Clearing of diagnostic codes many thoughts on this subject
an well understanding diagnostic codes. With cars and pickups many codes come and go so a cheap
AutoZone code reader will clear codes and many people do just that. With your motorhome Diesel
engine I would suggest not clearing any codes until knowing for fact code is not active. Good case
in point end of BAC Farmington Rally. One motorhome had work preformed about month before
coming to Farmington and started to leave and check engine light came on. Owner returned back
to rally grounds and Dave connected Cat ET to his engine and pulled several logged event codes
that required attention. Owner talking with service shop that preform services month earlier and
the shop foreman wanted me to clear all codes so he could return home 500 miles away. In talking
with owner I really did not want to clear the code that I printed out because I would remove for
the next Cat service shop what had been overlooked with earlier repair. Long story short by not
Clearing the codes present and owner could return home, service at different Cat shop by having
Not cleared codes found several issues over looked and saved lot of money because information
was not cleared. Gentleman the point is our engines require trained mechanics to understand what
to do and yes information is not available on the internet as some may feel they can find.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Gentleman, hate to keep adding problems but again everyone should be made aware of.
Aftermarket parts believe we touched on this subject but may we need to touch on this again.
Quartzsite, AZ. Camping on the BLM land and owner working on his motorhome and getting
caught up on repairs. Caterpillar C-9 replaced 2 injectors results of some generic code reader. Ordered
The injectors from Amazon and installed injectors says he saves a real lot of money. Dave got
called out on service call to that motorhome because the motor would start and run but run it
down the road at 45 mph engine would shut down to idle like it running out of fuel. Going through
fuel system troubleshooting problem it was determined problem had to be in the injectors just
installed.( this is where the look alike part comes into play.) that when I found out injectors were
Non-Cat. Removed 2 injectors from my Cat C-9 engine that I have for instruction and installed
In this owners Cat C-9 engine went for test drive runs out fine with the used Cat injectors. Removed
my injectors and suggested to owner to buy the correct Parts from Caterpillar. Going deeper into
What is going on, the diesel fuel go through the fuel rail and around each injector and returns excess
fuel back to fuel tank in front. ( cause of problem the screen at the injector opening Was about
half the size opening as the caterpillar injectors which would starve Engine of fuel above 45 mph.)
To this gentleman from up north he felt the savings out weight Caterpillar high cost. Than owner
wanted to buy my used injectors that I would not sell them because conflict of interest telling a person what is wrong but just happen to have a part to sell you. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Very well said Dave, don't be fooled by any engine part that states: "Just Like OEM Cat" the only OEM cat parts come from Caterpillar. I wonder what the end cost was for this guy installing two non OEM injectors in his motor?
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Here is a follow up to my post on the Cat C9S Check Engine light and related issues. To review, the yellow check engine light came on about 500 miles into a trip 920 miles south to Indio, CA. The light would not reset, indicating an active issue. Then, about 300 miles out at an elevation of 7,300' the engine lost power 3 times in about 15 seconds but regained full power and ran fine for the balance of the trip down. (At no time did a red check engine light illuminate.) I had a diesel mechanic, not from Cat, come to the RV park and run the codes. The first was an inappropriate response from the #2 fuel injector. It would not reset and the light remains on. He found a second code that would have given a yellow check engine light had it not already been illuminated from the first issue. The second code was an inappropriate response from the turbo actuator. ( the power loss issue at the high elevation) That situation resolved itself and the light went away. The closest Cat facility is about 75 miles away in Riverside, CA. That was in mid October of this year. So now we are back in Bend, OR having driven our tow home for the holidays. This morning I visited with the Cat dealership in Redmond, OR where the coach is routinely serviced. They were most helpful and told me the specific code I gave them was related to the fuel injector monitoring system and would have no bearing on the operation of the engine, which runs fine. The actuator code was related to the geometry of the tubo blades and may or may not be a continuing problem. But in any case I was given a green light to drive the coach back to Bend in the Spring and have it checked out by them at that time. That's what I know at this time. Thank you all and particularly Dave for the great input. And to all, a very Merry Christmas and safe travels in 2019.
Robin G