BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: barbhalsell on January 28, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
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What is going to be the best bang for my buck when I buy a 50 amp surge protector for the coach. I know we can hard wire or go with a portable unit. I know we can spend anywhere from $100 to $500. But do I need to spend $500 to be protected? I would appreciate your views and experience with these.
Barb
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Barb,
Where did you find a surge protector for $100? I want one.
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The units for ~$500 are a lot more than simple surge suppressors. They monitor line voltage and watch for serious conditions like open neutrals. They have the ability to cut off the current flow when dangerous situations are detected.
As for hard wire vs portable, we had a portable when we had our Class C. It was just another thing to remember to hookup each time and I wasn't trusting enough to use it without securing a cable to it to prevent theft. We have a hardwired one now and it is far simpler.
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http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Industries-SSP50-Smart-Surge/dp/B002UC2UB8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327782119&sr=8-1
This is a simple 50 amp surge protector.
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http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Industries-SSP50-Smart-Surge/dp/B002UC2UB8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327782119&sr=8-1
This is a simple 50 amp surge protector.
This is nothing more than a surge suppressor. IMHO, this is not a good investment since it doesn't protect you against some of the most common CG electrical problems.
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I know I need more protection than what that would provide which is why I am asking what kinds other people have bought. And are they happy with the purchase?
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We have this one: http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard/hardwires-portables/50a-hardwire. I don't know how to judge whether it works or not, since if it works you probably won't know it. All I can say is that it hasn't failed us, yet.
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The portable Progressive WILL protect from campground improper wiring, it lets you know when you plug it in with LED warning lights. It is also a surge protector. It will NOT shut down for under voltage. I never leave anything running (electricly) when I'm going to be away from the MH so I don't worry about undervoltage. I've had my portable one now for 3 years and it has saved me twice from miss-wired power posts. Marty
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I installed the Progressive EMS hard wired system about 2 years ago and it has saved me from low campground voltage at least one time that I know of. The campground voltage dropped below the 104V setpoint and the unit shut the power off. We were in the RV at the time and I went to check why the power went off and found that one leg of the power at the pedestal had dropped to 90 Volts! It is hard to say what would have happened if the EMS was not there to protect us but we are glad it did its job.
We travel in the NE often and we often find campgrounds where the voltage at the pedestal is marginal with not much occupancy at the CG early in the day when we usually stop for the day. As the CG fills up the voltage will only drop as more rigs plug into the power pedestals.
We are very happy with the Progressive EMS system and now are not afraid to leave the RV with stuff like the AC's running, knowing the EMS will do its job and shut down with low or high voltage and then turn the system back on if/when the power returns to the proper voltage.
Check out their web site WWW.progressiveindustries.net
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I agree with Paul. I use the progressive EMS unit (EMS-HW50C). It runs about $425 and comes with a remote that allows you to monitor individual line voltage, amp draw by leg and error codes remotely. The same unit without the remote, if memory serves me correct is about $375. This is a hardwired system. They also sell a "portable" EMS. I started out with a portable TRC unit that I purchased at Camping World that failed in less then two years . The TRC cost about $250 and didn't provide as mutch protection as the Progressive Industries EMS. The later is not only provides surge protection but also reverse polarity, open neutral, open ground, frequency issues, high/low voltage and 240 volt protection. You can also determine cause of problems by reviewing the error codes available on the unit itself or the remote if equipped. I am very happy with this unit and would not hesitate to recommend it.
Tim Westman
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Thank you for your input on this question. This is why this forum is so valuable. When I am surfing on other forum sites and see a question on anything Beaver, I steer the poster to BAC. Beaver questions answered by Beaver owners. I know of at least one that has joined because of this.
Barb
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One air conditioner went out on our old Pace Arrow a couple decades ago. The symptoms indicated it probably burned out from low campground voltage someplace we'd been. As the guys indicate above, pedestal voltage can vary more than people think. Owners new to the game and unfamiliar with the following basic concept are most vulnerable: in midsummer when the heat is on and the campgrounds are full, the voltage available to any one campsite is most likely going to be less than optimum. The more people that turn on their air conditioners, the worse the situation gets. You can park your lawn chair next to the pedestal and check the voltage every 10 minutes, or run out and check it everytime someone new rolls into the park and hooks up. Or you can have protection already in place monitoring things 24/7.
When an electric motor first starts up it requires far more current to get up to speed than it does after it's fully running; much like a car requiring more fuel to get its weight rolling off the stopline than after it's up to road speed. The air conditioner compressor motor especially fits that bill. If it only has 90 volts to work with rather than the 110-120 volts it's designed for, the motor has to work much harder to "get off the line" and up to speed. At 90 volts it may never get up to speed, but rather overheat trying to. This is the number 1 cause of AC failures. And its likely to happen to you if you don't have protection in place. Even then, nothing's perfect - stuff can happen.
Since we've owned our Monterey, we've had several instances where our power went out. It ultimately turns out it was our built-in power protection shutting everything down. At least once in Dillon, MT, it was in a relatively nice, new RV park... and our air conditioners weren't on. It was just a bad campground circuit, going out at midnight, and requiring the c.g. owner to get out of bed and reset. Even parked by the side of our house one day, in storage with nothing particular on electrically, I kept hearing a clicking on the roof. Turned out it was the automatic satellite dish going on and off; and we've never even used it. I couldn't get it to stop, so I knew something was haywire electrically. Feeling the 15 amp minimal cord going to the coach from the house, it was warm. For 27 years I've used 15 amp cords to my RVs in storage, and it's been fine as long as you understand their extremely minimal function. I could hear the power unit in the cord reel bay snapping on and off too. Immediately unplugging, I checked the cords and found the small cord and 15/30amp adapter had burn marks. Apparently the adapter was bad. The power protection was trying to do its job in response, and it worked, but there still was risk of fire at the adapter laying on the gravel next to the coach. I bought a 30 amp extension cord ($$) to resolve the issue and all is well.
The point is that you never know, so it's best to be protected not just from surges, but from the more likely bad circuit or low voltage situation. Unless you'd rather pay the $500+ for a new air conditioner instead of new built-in whole-coach power protection.
Joel
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Darn good point Joel!
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Joel,
My replacement HVAC unit was $1,300! I've been trying to detrrmine the most effective power management system. Just another must do task.
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http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard We hard wired one of the 50 Amp Surge Guard Units about 8 years ago and it has saved us from low power and improperly wired sites many times. Includes state parks , and some well maintained parks like Ft Wilderness (loose neutral) and some overloaded places like the ORA on I75 just South of the FL/GA line with 10 "50" amp sites on a 70 amp sub panal.
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Good discussion - I never really thought about this all that much. Now I am. I hate to spend $ on a portable right now before leaving on a trip, but don't have time to get a hard wired one installed - maybe look into getting it installed while away.
Where do you install the hard wire units? I'm certainly not going to do the install, but curious where it goes - after the power cord reel but before the other electrical "stuff"?
Jeff
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Where do you install the hard wire units? I'm certainly not going to do the install, but curious where it goes - after the power cord reel but before the other electrical "stuff"?
Our hardwired unit is in the basement near the transfer switch. The cable coming from the power reel goes to the suppressor and then to the transfer switch. We had to move the switch a bit to make room for all of it.
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It has to be after the cord reel but can be anywhere else.
I saw a picture of one after a big power surge and it was melted and blackened. So I would reccomend in be a hopefully hard to ignite something area.
My son got a portable on to plug into power pedestal. He unplugs it first and puts it up before rolling up his power cord so he does not forget it.
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I saw a picture of pne after a big power surge and it was melted and blackened. So I would reccomend in a hopefully harad to ignite something area.
I'm not denying that could happen but it had to have been an extreme case like a lightning strike. Normally you don't even know that a surge suppressor has done anything at all. Obviously, if it does something like cut the power off because the voltage is low, you'll know if you are around, but if it operates as a surge suppressor you'll never even know that it has prevented a voltage spike from entering your circuitry.
Personally, I think the picture you are referring to is manufacturer's "hype"--"you better get one of these before this happens to you" sort of stuff. I wouldn't let the picture dictate where I put the device.
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I just looked at my Contessa and will be mounting it next to the transfer switch in one of the storage bays.
I intent on installing it on the output of the transfer switch so it's providing protection for both commercial and generator power. Does anyone see a reason not to install it after the transfer switch?
It looks like PPL hss the best price. As anyone found a less expensive source?
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Amazon $272.88 Surge Guard 34560 hardwired.
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I hard wired a 50 amp Surge Guard in my 1998 Patriot. I moved it into this coach in 2003. I think it works, because there have been no electrical problems in the coach. The initial coast is worth the peace of mind and expense of repairing circuit boards. The hard wired model is safe and dry compared to the portable.
Larry
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Barb and Jack,
Thanks. On order and as an Amazon Prime member, shipping is free.
Gil
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Gil and Jeff, are you positive you don't already have one on your coach? Many came from the factory already to go, like our Monterey.
Gil, you are correct. I haven't priced a new AC for awhile. They're a lot more than $500+ nowdays.
Joel
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Joel,
I've crawled through most nooks and crannies and have looked at the wiring diagrams and can't find one in my '08 Contessa. It may be hidden somewhere, but I don't think so.
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Joel,
I believe you are correct. I was pretty sure there was a "surge" protector in the MH, but wasn't sure if it monitored voltage,etc. So after banging my head a couple of times today, I found the unit and iit is in back of the bay compartment - a Surge Guard by TRC.
Reading the literature more closely, it does protect against high (>132v) and low (<102V); in either case it disconnects the service. Also monitors faulty wiring, reverse polarity and open neutral.
Lesson to me: READ THE MANUAL MORE THOROUGHLY - DON"T JUST SKIM THROUGH IT!
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I have been using a TRC Surge Guard that is hardwired into my coach for over 10 years. It has paid for it's self many times, because it has saved me from faulty campground wiring several times.
I am now on my second coach with the same Surge Guard because the last time that I traded coaches, I transferred the Surge Guard to the new coach. I would not be without a surge protector that also monitors voltage and wiring issues, because if you have not had one of the problems yet, you will if you travel enough.
Gerald
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OK, you folks have convinced me. I'm going with the EMS-HW50C by progressive because of the remote read out feature.
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Gil I installed a surge protector in my 08 contesst and I could not find one installed from the factory. About a week ago the unit shut down the power to the coach and had the park check it and found #2 line open sure glad i had a surge protector. Wayne
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I just installed the TRC device on the output of the transfer switch. It was easy! Just an hour labor and less than $20 in wire and parts.
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Im only mentioning this as an alternative approach for placement of the surge protector. When we had problems with the power transfer relay in June I wired in a TRC surge protector on the shore power side of the 50A power transfer relay rather than the output.
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Keith, are you saying your transfer switch problems were a result of not having the surge and voltage protector on the input to the transfer switch? It is true that my placement doesn't protect the the one electronic board in the transfer switch and your placement does. Your placement doesn't protect the coach if there's a power problem with the generator. FWIW, your placement is what TRC recommends. I'm not sure if that recommendation is due to the fact that's the only place you can install their shore power plug-in version or that there's little liklihood that the generator can put out bad power.
You do bring up a decision the owner has to make on where, electrically, to install the surge and power protector. Either placement protects the coaches systems from shore power problems.
Gil
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The factory installed our Monterey's Surge Guard on the back wall of the cord reel compartment, so the cord runs immediately through the device before anything else.
Joel
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Gil,
Low voltage at the pedistal can trigger failure in the power transfer circuitry. if the voltage level drops far enough the contactor points will “chatter” and sustained contact chattering can and will cause damage.
Low voltage can be caused by low voltage conditions like an RV park with inadequate wiring or crowded camper conditions where everyone’s electricity suffers (brownout). Low voltage may also be triggered by using an extension cord which is too long and too small for the load.
A spike in voltage can also trigger a failure in the time delay circuitry.
The problems we encountered in June were, i beleive, triggered by a low voltage and a chatter condition in an older RV park.
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Keith, gotcha. I need to look at the specs/features of the transfer switch. I'm not aware of a timer on mine, but that seems reasonable. Although relay chatter will lead to premature contact failure, my placement of the surge/voltage protection device should guarantee that there's no current load on a chattering relay.
I'd like to better understand the likilhood of generator related power problems that this device could protect against. I'm always reminded of an Air Force comm site I ran in Turkey when we had a run away generator that raised the voltage to disasterous levels.
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Gil,
I do not seen any likely hood of transfer switch failure from low voltage because the TRC Surge Guard will disconnect the power for 2 minutes and 15 seconds at any time there is low voltage and will not reconnect until voltage returns, so there will be no current flow through the transfer switch.
If you are in a park were the voltage is below 102V (the TRC disconnect point), you need to disconnect from shore power and move or run on your generator.
The location that you chose for your Surge Guard is the same one that I was going to use until I decided that I did not want to wait the extra 2 plus minutes for power every time that I started the generator. If the extra wait for generator power does not bother you, I see nothing wrong with your installation.
Although a generator related power problem is a possible, it is very rare. I think that your coach has the variable speed 8KW Onan, so overvoltage from an over-speed condition is not a concern since the generator produces DC current and uses an inverter to produce 120V AC. On the other hand the 10KW and 12.5KW units are constant speed units that produce 120V AC current with the generator and over-speed is a real problem if it happens.
Gerald
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Gerald, I do have the 10KW Onan generator. It's good to know the differences between the 10K and smaller units.
When I tested my installation using the generaor (the only power I have at my storage location) I noted that thet transfer switch had already selected the generator power before I could get from the generator start switch to the bay were the transfer switch is. I'm guessing the transfer switch provides priority to generator power. That guess and the generator power being the only power, I'm again guessing the transfer switch did not introduce any timer function.
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Gil,
The transfer switch should have normal contacting to the shore power side and does no do any switching to the generator side until the delay circuit timer is satisfied. That tmer is usually 60 to 90 seconds to allow the generator to stabilize. The timer starts when AC voltage is sensed on the generator side. I'm thinking you were moving slower like I do today or time was flying while having fun..... You may want to check your transfer switch timing, it is possible that it is defective and switching too soon.
Later Ed
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Does anyone have pictures of their install of the hard wired surge guard? We are going to try to get this done this weekend and would appreciate anyones advice.
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My Surge Guard is underneath in the basement near the transfer switch and not something I can reach to take a picture of easily.
I didn’t do the work myself; I know they moved the transfer switch a bit so this could fit in. There’s nothing particularly interesting to see with respect to the install, though----incoming cable goes to SG then output of SG goes to transfer switch.
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I am so far behind the times with regard to this very important subject, but within a week or so of beginning a journey in my coach. I want to address this protection immediately. I see online that Camping World is having a big sale that ends Sunday, June 24 and acting now could save a bunch.
For instance, their Progressive hardwired with display EMS-HW50C (rating 240V/50A/12,000W) is sale priced at $300.37 and regular price is $432. This one comes with a remote display. Where does one install the remote display?
But, also found on Camping World a 50 Amp RV Voltage Regulator for $620.
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/surge-guard-rv-voltage-regulators/7507
Would the voltage regulator be a better solution to power issues and dangers than the high end hard-wired surge guard?
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The surge suppressors that many of us have installed protect against both voltage spikes on the line and excessively low or high voltage. They do the latter by shutting power off if the shore power is too high or too low. The voltage regulator is capable of raising or lowering the shore power voltage to compensate for high or low voltage.
In theory this is preferable, but I's not sure from the description of the product whether or not it also acts as a regular surge suppressor. IMHO voltage transients and miswired pedestals are the most common problems to be concerned about. I'm willing to have a system that shuts down when the voltage is too high or low (I can always run my generator, if necessary.) I would also hate to go back to a device that needs to be used external to the coach and which would have to be secured in place (unless you want to risk your $600 gadget).
As for where the remote surge suppressor displays can be mounted, "anywhere" is probably a good answer since you would normally only look at it once when you plugged into shore power. Mine doesn't have a remote display but I can see the LEDs if I crawl into the basement!
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Thank you!
This may be a stupid question, but it seems to me that if a cg pedestal is miswired -- why does this continue? Bad management I suppose, poor maintenance practices? It seems to me that if one is miswired that the prior camper at that spot may have told them about it and they wouldn't be renting that space until they fixed it. Of course, what is reasonable practice to me and you is one thing and to a cg mgr another.
Is there a device one can buy to "stick into" the 50 amp or 30 amp receptacle PRIOR TO going to the effort of backing into the spot, getting setup only to discover you are going to have to move? That would enable you to screen out a miswired pedestal. Perhaps the same device could detect power fluctuations too.
I am in favor of getting a surge protector --- in fact, I already have one, but it's one I paid $110 for. It's a SSP-50 from Progressive. I would like to get a hard-wired protector such as the Progressive EMS-HW50C. It's my bad timing but Camping World has it on sale right now for $300.37 + $6.00 shipping. If you put in promotion code 2756 it will sell to you for $50 less than that. This sale ends tomorrow. But the thing is that I am leaving on my trip in a week and their website says they ship from the manufacturer and they won't do express shipping. Shipping takes 2-3 weeks.
On the other hand I can get another hard wired one from Amazon and delivered for free in 2 days. The one they have is TRC 34560 Surge Guard 50-Amp Hardwire priced at $273. Would I be ok with this one? Has no remote for it though. Not as high joules rating as the Progressive either.
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Richard,
I have had a 34560 Surge Guard hard wired into my coach for over ten years and it has performed flawlessly. I would not be without it. The biggest problem that I have found that it safeguards you against is mis-wired pedestals (as a fulltimer I see a couple a year). It also has a delay feature if there is a power disruption that will give your A/C units time to equalize pressure to prevent compressor failure. I do not have a remote, and I see no need for one. It would just be another gadget and a waste of money. The Surge Guard does it's job without any input from you, and it does it well.
Normally a voltage regulator is not needed nearly as often as the Surge Guard is, however since I am a Thousand Trails member and I see low voltage often if I am at one of their older parks that has aluminum wiring, I have an 50 amp Hughes Autoformer hardwired in series between the Surge Guard and the transfer switch.
Gerald
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I transferred the Surge Guard from our '98 Patriot to the current coach. The cost per year diminishes over time. After12 years, the cost for peace of mind is negligible. About 8 years ago I added a Hughes Autoformer hardwired as Gerald did. The only display is on the units in the bay. I seldom check them.
Larry
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Got it installed yesterday, seems to be working as it should. Will have to wait til we can hook up to 50 amp service to be positive tho.
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Got it installed yesterday, seems to be working as it should. Will have to wait til we can hook up to 50 amp service to be positive tho.
Even if you're connected via a dogbone adapter, you are feeding power down both legs of the 50A circuit. Therefore, as far as the surge suppressor is concerned you are connected normally. Therefore, there should be absolutely no difference when you connect to a 50A circuit.
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Well so far so good then! If all kinds of people can install these in just an hour (pshaw!), then we should have done OK.
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Interesting discussion. Yesterday, at a park in Whitehorse, Yukon, it was 28c so a lot of units had their air on. My Aladin was showing voltage (30amp service) around 104 - 108 a lot of the time; could not safely run AC - I guess too far down the line :o. In fact the surge guard kicked out once as voltage dropped below 102.
About how long (or is it always) does the Hugh's boost voltage? Today voltage is around 116-122 so far but the temp is rising again and we'll see what the voltage drops to as units start firing up their ac's
Jeff
Ps. Met another beaver owner at this park with a 08 Contessa also on their way to Alaska.
Pss. Fuel is $1.33/L
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Jeff,
The current model of the Hughes Autoformer has an operating range from 94 to 125 volts input. It has a sensing circuit that automatically boost the the output voltage by 10% when the input voltage is between 94 and 116. It will also boost the output voltage by 2% when the input voltage is between 117 and 125 volts. If the input voltage is below 94 or above 125 volts, it does nothing, and that is the reason that I installed the Surge Guard in line before it to safeguard against ultra low or high voltage.
There have been some changes in the Autoformer line over the years, but this model has been around for a long time. It is the same model that I purchased eight years ago, and it has performed flawlessly.
Gerald
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It sounds like something that may be on the to get list. Oddly today with similar temperatures, the park voltage has been running around 120 or so most of the day.
Thanks for the info Gerald. My wee brain is still trying to figure out how it boosts voltage - an amplifier of some sort?
Jeff
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Jeff.
For an autoformer envision a transformer winding around a conmmon core with some taps. No primary or secondary windings. At one end of the core you apply one leg of the 120v AC and for argument sake at the midpoint of the winding you apply the other leg. The entire core is magnetized and as the field does its thing it induces voltage in the rest of the windings on that common core. If we measure now from our end connections and not the midpoint we would have 240V. The autoformer taps at appropriate points steps up the voltage compensation that is appropriate. Doing this in an automated way is the trick.
A good example of how well an autoformer works is an ignition coil. The smaller segment winding using an end and a tap will see 12V and the end to end large portion of the winding will see an induce 20k volts. This is all from a single winding on a common iron transformer core. If you ever pulled a plug wire with an engine running you probably know how well an autoformer works...Hope this helps.
later Ed
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Thanks for all the great help on this thread.
I've just now ordered online from Camping World the TRC34560 hard wired surge guard 50 amp. Regular price was $330 before tax and shipping, but since I am a Good Sam member and they were having a sale this weekend I got it for $181 plus sales tax, but free shipping. Nice deal --- better than Amazon.
I'm having it shipped to me in care of my rv service center. What are the basic instructions of how I should have this installed and in what bay? Does it need a special installation kit or can the service guys install with basic materials?
I have a 2001 Marquis 40JSP.
Now -- need to sell my Progressive Industries SSP50 Smart Surge which is practically new having used it once.
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Richard,
I mounted the Surge Guard in my 2000 Marquis (very similar coach) on the ceiling of the basement, next to the transfer switch. The only parts that will be needed is a short (2 to 3 feet) piece of flexible 6/4 wire. It is a very easy installation and any competent technician can do it with no problems.
Gerald
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You may want to mount it on a vertical wall, so the indicator lights can be seen by opening the bay door without crawling inside.
Larry
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We mounted ours in the cord reel bay, after the cordreel but before the transfer switch.
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Re: Hardwired vs portable surge guards
I am having the Surge Guard model #TRC-34560 installed on my coach soon, but wonder about the "what if" it fails. I found this message on another forum and it makes me wonder whether hardwiring will present a problem down the road for me in the event of a failure.
Title: Re: RV Line Voltage Regulators
Post by: Racklefratz on July 30, 2011
I'll offer you two reasons I prefer a portable surge protector. 1) hard-wiring one marries it to your RV; at trade-in time, you just pick up a portable one and take it along with your other stuff; with a hard-wired one, not so much, and 2) These things are pretty dependable, BUT....if one fails totally, and power can't pass through it, with a hard-wired one, you're going to have a problem getting power into your coach. If it's a portable model, you simply unplug it and plug the coach directly into the pedestal.
Hook-up with a portable one is a trivially easy thing to do - just plug it in. I don't worry much about theft. Most people don't even notice it's there.
If I am out on a camping trip and my surge guard fails, is there an easy way to by-pass it? Or am I SOL until I can get to a rv service center. I am not handy with tools and installation.
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The current model of the Hughes Autoformer has an operating range from 94 to 125 volts input. It has a sensing circuit that automatically boost the the output voltage by 10% when the input voltage is between 94 and 116. It will also boost the output voltage by 2% when the input voltage is between 117 and 125 volts. If the input voltage is below 94 or above 125 volts, it does nothing, and that is the reason that I installed the Surge Guard in line before it to safeguard against ultra low or high voltage.
There have been some changes in the Autoformer line over the years, but this model has been around for a long time. It is the same model that I purchased eight years ago, and it has performed flawlessly.
Gerald
I found a post by someone on another forum about this type of device and would like your opinion of what this guy says. See below:
The device you're referring to is called an "RV Voltage Regulator". It operates the same way as other devices called "Autoformers". This one "seamlessly switches between Boost Mode, which raises output voltage by 10% if incoming line voltage is between 95 Volts to 110 Volts, and Bypass Mode which passes input voltage directly to the output when incoming line voltage is above 110 Volts or below 95 Volts. I would not connect such a device between shore power and my RV under any circumstances.
Why? Coupla' reasons. Look at what can happen: In a power brown-out, where campground voltage sags below 95 volts, the device will send that voltage straight into your rig. If there's a campground power surge, that's the voltage your rig will see. Do you want to have 85 volts inside your trailer with your appliances running? How 'bout a 150 volt spike? I don't. But this device will do that.
Also, when campground power is delivering a voltage between 95-110 volts, the 10% voltage "boost" this device will provide will come at the expense of campground power available to all the other rigs connected to the same campground power. Total power at any point in time is fixed; this device can't make its own power.
None of this has any appeal whatsoever to me, since there's real potential for serious damage to appliances from excessively low or high voltages which could be passed to the RV. In my mind, the way to go is with one of the several surge protector devices available, which, when voltages become excessively low or high, simply disconnect the RV from shore power, and provide reset-delay protection for appliances in the RV. Conceivably, the "voltage regulator" could be used in conjunction with a surge protector, but the marginal advantage is minimal, IMO, and is unfriendly to others in the campground, since it robs them of power that would otherwise be available to them.
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Richard,
Your post about your concern that a failure in the Surge Guard would leave you without power is unfounded in my opinion. First, there is a bypass switch if you want to bypass the unit, and second, failures of the unit are so rare that they should not be a concern.
Next in regards to your post were you quoted the guy who said he would never have a Autoformer in his coach. I agree that the unit that he was describing is not the one that I would pick. However a Hughes Autoformer has a much better voltage boost profile than he was describing. He was also complaining that the autofotmer does not do things that it is not designed to do. In short this guy does not know what he is talking about.
Gerald
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I agree with Gerald. The guy does not know what he is taking about. The use of an auto-transformer does not affect anyone upstream in the park. It increases the voltage you use and reduces the current available to you. Your power (voltage times current) does not change. Read his post as an opinion, not a fact.
Larry
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In short this guy does not know what he is talking about.
LOL I bet you run across that a lot. :)
I'm running everything through you and the other Beaver guys.
What do you know about the PowerMaster VC-50 -- as it's both a power booster and surge protector in one. Too good to be true?
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I read that post also and my immediate thought was that the doctor slapped him at the wrong end at birth.....
Later Ed
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Richard,
The PowerMaster VC-50 is a good autoformer, however it can not replace a Surge Guard because it has no protection against mis-wired pedestals. ultra low or ultra high voltage, and it does not have a built-in delay when power is interrupted to protect your A/C units. Surge protection is just a part of what the Surge Guard does.
I am confused here, Why are you looking for an Autofomer? If you are like most Beaver owners who stay in modern RV parks, you rarely run into the low voltage conditions that an autoformer is designed to correct. So why are you looking to spend $500 to $700 on an autoformer?
Gerald
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Like you -- I'm a member of Thousand Trails and I've experienced their old run-down campgrounds in Florida. I'm thinking I won't renew my membership next February, but would like to use it this summer and fall.
Otherwise, I don't always seek out the modern and more expensive campgrounds. Perhaps I should though, huh?
The best pricing I've found so far on the Hughes Autoformer RV220-50 is $509. Do I need the installation kit too?
http://autoformersdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28
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If you get a 50amp service in a park, it tends to be newer installation and in my travels I have only had one experience of a low voltage condition with a 50amp service panel. It was due to a grid issue with a large manufacturing facility with machines next to the camground. Very rare. You may consider always taking a campground that has 50amp service and the upcharge as opposed to an autoformer. If you use 30 amp campground service a lot, the autoformer is proabably a good idea. The surgeguard is a good idea no matter what service you use.
Later Ed
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Richard,
The Thousand Trails system is a great way to RV at an inexpensive rate if you use it a lot. The system has some nice up to date parks as well as some parks that date back to Barney Rubble, an believe me that the Florida parks are not the worst. I was at a TT park in central Washington State on July 4th weekend a few years ago, and with the park at capacity, the temperature at 105 degrees, the old aluminum wiring was unable to deliver adequate voltage to at least half of the sites. In fact my neighbor had to run his generator at least 12 hours a day because the pedestal voltage for his 30 amp site was at 95 volts. I was at a 50 amp site next-door with 112 to 115 volts under load.
As for only staying in modern, up to date, and expensive parks, not my style. I guess that I am to cheap or something but an older park in an area that I want to be in is much better than a new one somewhere else.
Your question about whether or not you need the install kit depends upon how you plan on using the Autoformer. If you are going to use it at the pedestal only when you are in a park with low voltage, then no you do not need the install kit. However if you are going to hardwire the unit into your coach so that it is always online, then yes you will need the installation kit or you can buy the same parts and makeup your own kit from a large hardware store for about the same price.
Gerald
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You probably have a TT membership that allows you to camp all over the US. I've considered that and perhaps buying one on Ebay or something. Perhaps that's another thread here? All I have is a one year southeastern membership. I've already gotten my $500 cost back with staying 30 nights for free. Each night here after until the membership expires is supposed to be $3. It's a no brainer to me, but I imagine that availability of spaces this summer will be quite limited. I always ask for 50 amp spaces --- one time I got 30 amp, but did not have to run air conditioning for it.
I recently joined Passport America. I am like you too in that I don't want to pay a lot for camping spots. I don't have kids traveling with me and thus, a swimming pool and playground are not on my priority. I like 50 amps, clean, quiet, even shady campgrounds that can be easily gotten to and out of. A semi-level spot would be nice. :)
Following your lead -- you've got your hardwired Surge Guard first in-line followed by your hardwired Hughes autoformer. That configuration protects you as best you can from older cheaper campgrounds.
I got that correct about which comes first, right? Surge Guard and then Autoformer? Some people do it the other way around. I'm not sure what is right until I hear what you have done. 8)
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That is a good question. I would probably do the autoformer first so that the low voltage cut out of the surgeguard is not invoked as long as the autoformer can still compensate voltage enough to meet spec. When that system can no longer support the low voltage requirement, the Surgeguard would then disconnect you. The only downside I could think of is that the voltage drop would be greater when pulling current, so you might get into a scenario when the Surgeguard kicks out, then the incoming voltage rises enough to go through a reconnect cycle. Then the voltage falls out of spec with current demand during the reconnect cycle and then it disconnects you again. That could happen in either wiring configuration but may be more likely with the autoformer first. If you get repeated disconnects in either configuration I would disconnect for awhile until the grid was back delivering the voltage that is needed.
The Autoformer folks should have thier answer for that installation order question also.
Later Ed
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I wonder what Gerald's response to the order of surge guard with autoformer is.
Here's a timely article in FMCA on this subject:
http://www.fmcmagazine.com/motorhome-articles/7075
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Richard,
The circuit arrangement that is recommended by Autoformer manufacturers is the Autoformer first, then the Surge Guard followed by the transfer switch. After some careful thought, I chose to change that arrangement and place the Surge Guard first, then the Autoformer followed by the transfer switch.
The reason that I chose the arrangement that I did is the fact that I was trying to protect my coach from low voltage, especially the A/C compressors, and since the surge guard does no cut off power for low voltage until it sees voltage below 102V for 8 seconds, I thought that the threshold was to low . So I placed the Surge Guard first and the Autoformer next to basically raise the threshold by ten percent with the Autoformer increasing the voltage after the Surge Guard. If the incoming shore power is below 102V, I think that it is to marginal and undependable to be on line anyway.
The engineers that designed these things chose to recommend wiring them one way and I chose another way. I am sure that there are merits to wiring the units the way that was recommended by the manufacturer, but I am very happy with the way that my system performs and I am not changing it. However I am sure that some of the engineers on the forum may have different opinions.
Gerald
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Gerald's considertaion in wiring the autoformer second is a good one. It is a matter of priority how you choose to wire these units. If you want your coach systems to stay online as long as possible in 105 degree heat with a low voltage issue, the autoformer would come first then the Surgeguard. If you want to have a more conservative higher voltage cut out point than 102V, more like 112V for 8 seconds then the Surgeguard would go first.
Usually these low voltage problems are driven by air conditioner load due to very hot weather and you may opt to have the air conditioning online as long as possible given that scenario. I would guess that the Surgeguard folks were diligent in getting the low voltage cut out limit about right to protect air conditioners but I am not sure of that. I did look at DuoTherm specs but I did not see a low AC limit listed. I guess the question might want to be posed to SurgeGuard as to how they came up with that 102V limit and was it derived with adequate testing to protect air conditioning compressors. If so you have a choice, if not Gerald's configuration adds a margin of safety over the SurgeGuard alone or the autoformer followed by a SurgeGuard.
My gut feel is that 102V is sufficient to maintain a running compressor online without an issue but it is insufficient in hot weather to get by the starting current issue of a unit trying to come online. The 8 second window is the main protection given it is the probablility of your air unit trying to start sometime within that 8 second window and failing to be able to start. A few seconds is probably not enough time to burn the compressor motor out before the Surgeguard takes the coach AC line and disconnects you. SurgeGuard should be able to justify the limits they chose. One of you folks looking to buy a SurgeGuard should have that conversation and post the results.
Later Ed
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I've read this entire thread, concerned because soon we will be "long timers" and subject to various camp grounds. I'm attaching a picture of my electrical bay. I don't see a surge protector in line with the transfer switch. Also, my manual on the 'new to us' Beaver only lists Surgeguard as the supplier of the transfer switch, and says nothing about a surge protector. I'm guessing I don't have one.
Can someone take a look at this picture and confirm what I think, please?
Thank you.
Stan
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I think you may have surge protection but you cannot read the model number. Can you post that number and the information can be looked up. Your manual may include the literature for that Surgeguard unit and that could also provide the info that you need.
Later Ed
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Woo Hoo!! Like someone said earlier, read the manual! I dug through the box of manuals on all of the components in the coach, and found out that we have a Surge Guard Plus, model 40250, which is a combination transfer switch and 50 amp surge protector.
Thank you Ed for the impetus to check further. :)
Stan
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I took my new TRC34560 hardwireable surge guard (50 amp) to a RV service dealer in the city where I am camping this week. The owner said it would take about 3 hours to install it plus materials for extra wire, etc. so I can see it. I got the impression he wasn't very familiar with this and so I backed away from it. In a few days I will begin my journey which will last perhaps 4 months taking me up as north as Toronto and back. I don't have time to check around and find someone competent around here. I bought the surge guard from Camping World online, but they don't have a store here. I'm not sure even they could be trusted to install it correctly. Frankly, I wouldn't really trust anyone but one of you active members here. But then you are way far away from me and well.....
So..... I've opted not to spend $300-$400 it would cost to install this hard wirable surge guard. I certainly don't know how to do it myself. I'm an accountant and number cruncher. I can do a large corporate tax return, but I sure as heck don't know my way around electrical components. I would either end up getting fried myself or burning something down.
I've just ordered another surge guard -- this time the 50 amp portable one -- TRC34750. I just spent $350 for that. Now I will own 3 surge guards. Rarely do I end up making such mistakes in judgement as usually I ask questions from this board and research it over and over. But this time now I feel foolish. Thus, I need to sell the 2 I don't need and pray no one steals from a pedestal the portable one I'm about to get and start using to protect my rig. Life is a pain at times.
All of you guys who have advised me in this forum are very blessed to have the ability, experience, and confidence to do all the things you do. As for me, I have to find someone to do it and pay them. One thing I've observed is that you don't want just any jack leg working on a Beaver.
Someone recently posted that there is little opportunity for finding competence in the south. And that it seems the better sources for Beaver repairs and maintenance are in the NW of US. I feel stressed about that too because I can't just go drive to Bend, Oregon to get something done. It's tempting though. But, no, not this year.
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Well Richard, that is a shame that you bought a hard wired surge guard and do not feel capable of installing it. Honestly, I personally would not feel capable either. However, my husband Jack has done the usual handyman electrical jobs around the house and installed ours. Of course I scoured every post on surge guards I could find in all the RV forums that I read, also studied all the images that google brought up. In the end, I did have a good idea of how it should be done and of course filled Jack's ear with all this helpful info LOL!
If you could hang on to it until you camp next to someone who has actually installed one, then you would have the confidence to do so and probably lots of help.
In the meantime, buy a lock box like this
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/surge-guard-universal-lock-hasp/44333
to protect your portable.
Barb
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Someone recently posted that there is little opportunity for finding competence in the south. And that it seems the better sources for Beaver repairs and maintenance are in the NW of US.
Richard,
There are competent repair facilities across the country including the South. A good source to find local repair facilities is http://www.rvservicereviews.com/ . This web site is also a good place to post both positive and negative comments about a facility. We live North of Atlanta and RV Service Reviews is how we located the facility we use in Auburn, Ga. However, we don't take the coach to the repair facility for everything. I do some of the work myself like replacing the power transfer relay and installing the surge protector. If it happens to be a task I am not comfortable with or don't want to do myself I will evaluate the task to be performed and determine where to take the coach. Why pay an RV facility over $100 per hour labor to perform tasks that can be done professionally for significantly lower labor rates. For example rather than having an RV repair facility changing engine oil and filters Speedco will do the same job at a significantly lower labor rate.
the installation of the surge protector is a fairly straightforward process and all of the additional parts needed (wire & connectors) can be obtained from Lowe's or Home Depot. If you want to wait until you return to Atlanta I will be happy to help you with the surge protector.
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Richard,
Don't feel foolish. You changed your mind given some time constraints and the issues at hand. That job of hard wiring the surge guard could be done by anyone who is reasonably competent, so if after this trip you find that you would a prefer hardwired version, get it installed and sell the portable.
I think we all have the issue of who will do some servicing when we do not live near Bend. If you ask around and find who is competent and build up a confidence in their service then over time you will feel better about ownership. You will need a shop that can handle filter changes, general engine and transmission service as well as brake and suspension work over the years. Freightliner dealers with a good reputation may be a good source to start with.
There are some specialty things like the air conditioning system, some of the leveling systems, monitor systems, slide problems, where it would be best to go to Bend or the Wildwood Facility in FL which would be closer to you in Atlanta.
You either have to service the coach yourself or find the better resources near you and trust them to handle what they know. Avoid the jack legs the best you can. The folks on the forum do not want anyone to be paralyzed regarding getting service, if something really needs to be fixed or it is something that is not unique to a Beaver and general knowledge exists. Atlanta is a big enough area and there must be some good service folks around there. If you see other Beaver or Country Coach owners in your area it would be worth asking. Have a safe and fun trip.
Later Ed
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Richard,
I think that the estimate of 3 hours labor that you received to install a hardwired Surge Guard is ridiculous. I have installed three of them (for myself and friends) and it has never taken more than one hour to accomplish. It is very simple, it is not brain surgery. If we cross paths in the future, I will install it for you, free.
Gerald
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Dear Barb -- thank you for your post and the link to the lock. I considered that lock and thought it would be ideal, but was influenced by the 3 negative reviews on it at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/34590-Surge-Guard-Lock-Hasp/product-reviews/B002OUQI3W/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
All these people say it's a waste of money and provides no security.
I need a better solution. Does anyone else secure theirs in any particular way?
I thought about using some of those long plas-ties that lock in place and secure the portable protector to the pedestal. And I read one post in another thread in which someone said something about covering the pedestal with a waterproof bag or cover of some kind (which may even hide the surge guard hanging down). But when you are ready to break camp you use a whatchamycallit snipper tool and remove the plas-ties of course being careful not to damage the surge guard. Geesh, I need to learn the terminology.
I know some of you think I am a green toad, but hey, I was raised in a home that had no screwdriver, no hammer, nothing. If something needed fixing my dad call someone to come do it. I have more tools now than I've ever had in my life. I can do things --- I would love to learn to do lots more.
As for competence in the south -- I know there are some good places, but I was referring to places familiar with Beaver. Or is Beaver not that special? One thing about my Beaver is the brakes which cannot be lubricated like other brakes --- requires a special clay based grease. How would a mechanic know that or not? Do they research a rig model number and year prior to lubricating the brakes? Because if I had not learned it from Gerald last week I would not have known myself.
The gentleman from near Atlanta referred me to the rv service in Auburn, GA. I am familiar with them. I would like to discuss this with you sometime.
Thanks for all the replies and help.
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Thank you Gerald. I would love to meet you and your wife Glenda (who also contributes greatly to the operation of BAC). I don't think I will be able to make the rally in NY, but if it wasn't so dang hot I would drive to Texas and try to pay you to educate me. 8)
Richard
Richard,
I think that the estimate of 3 hours labor that you received to install a hardwired Surge Guard is ridiculous. I have installed three of them (for myself and friends) and it has never taken more than one hour to accomplish. It is very simple, it is not brain surgery. If we cross paths in the future, I will install it for you, free.
Gerald
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As new full-timers we have had to get service, quickly, in several different parts of the country. By asking locals for recommendations we have done pretty well; only one time have we later found the work to not have been done properly. One thing we find effective is not going to RV service centers when the problem we have is not related to an RV-specific issue. For example, I'd much rather have my engine serviced at a CAT dealer or my generator by a Cummins shop than I would hope that an unknown RV center knows how to resolve my problems. Similarly, most chassis issues can be dealt with my major truck repair centers.
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Are you saying your Onan generator is best serviced by a Cummins dealer?
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Richard...As I have walked around several campgrounds and noticed the portable Autoformers on the pedestals I've also noticed that many of them are chain locked to the pedestal. They must have an attachment to the Autoformer that will receive a chain and when you place the chain under the electrical box on the pedestal with a lock on it, it seems to be very well protected. Just a thought.
Mandy :)[size=14][/size]
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Richard,
Cummins owns Onan. So Cummins and Onan are the same company for all intents and purposes. Most Cummins dealers, but not all, are factory Onan service centers.
Gerald
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Richard...As I have walked around several campgrounds and noticed the portable Autoformers on the pedestals I've also noticed that many of them are chain locked to the pedestal. They must have an attachment to the Autoformer that will receive a chain and when you place the chain under the electrical box on the pedestal with a lock on it, it seems to be very well protected. Just a thought.
Mandy :)[size=14][/size]
I can see chain locking an autoformer, but I am talking at the moment about the surge guard portable unit. The autoformer is on my wish list. Or are we talking about the same thing? Now I'm confused. 8)
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Richard, I am in Atlanta as well and highly recommend Cummins South. They have serviced my generator several times. I also do alot of the work myself and am quite familiar with the systems.
I would imagine Cummins can install the surge protector. Speak with Bill Thomas at the RV service counter and tell him I referred you to them. I used to work with Bill.
If you need some advice or info give me a call I am located in Hampton by the raceway.
Of course we all would like to have Gerald handy he is the best!
Send me a private message and I will give you my number.
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Right now my generator is working like a charm. But I'm writing all this down so that if the time comes I'll know where to go.
Hampton -- that's where the road races are, right? I am on my trip right now and actually located in Augusta, GA until the middle of next week. From here I'm heading north --- in search of cooler weather. 8)
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Richard, try River Vista in Dillard very nice place and normally about 10 degrees cooler.
Safe travels
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Greetings,
I know this is slightly off topic but I'm absolutely amazed about the number of Beaver owners in the Atlanta area responding to this thread. If you hook up with Keith to do the install, I'd love to look over your shoulders (I live in Gainesville) as I view this as a tremendous learning opportunity. And if you organize a local "meet and greet" (mentioned on another thread) we'd love to attend. We are still members of the working poor, so a weekend would be best. I'll second the nomination of River Vista made by Tom and Pam as a possible location. If you decide you'd like professional installation of your autoformer, I've used Appalachee RV in Auburn and haven't had a negative experience. And if you want to go really nuts, maybe you would want to consider a trial visit with the Georgia Mountaineers (www.georgiamountaineers.org). It's a great group of folks though most haven't been enlightened about the Beaver brand.
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OK. Dumb question... I have a 2003 Patriot Thunder 505 HP Cat C12 I have recently purchased the Progressive Industries EMS-hw50C surge protector that comes highly recommended through this Beaver forum. In preparation of the install I have taken the time to watch the EMS-hw50C surge protector install video but the video did not show an installation of this unit into a coach that is equipped with an power inverter. That said does the power output from the EMS-hw50C unit go into the converter or the transfer switch ?
Attached picture of my transfer switch / power supply
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There are no dumb questions just dumb mistakes.
The surge protector would go in between your 50 amp shore power cord in and the transfer switch. One of those two contactors in the switch box is for the genie and the other shore power. There should be tech support with that unit call them for any pointers.
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Thanks for the information Lee. I will reach out to the manufacture and obtain some tech tips..
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I can confirm that their tech support is great.....give them a call. And the unit works as advertised-glad I installed one.
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Spoke with Ken @ Bend Beaver service today and he was very helpful as he explained which line was the incoming shore power. Once I determined which was shore power it was very evident that the EMS was wired differently that the transfer switch.
The EMS switch is wired with Black @ T-1, White @ T-2 & Red @T-3 whereas as the incoming shore power to transfer switch is wired Red@ L-1, White L-2 and Black @ L-3 so it left me very concerned. I'm assuming that the EMS is a passive system and if that is the case then the wiring would not work in this manner as it would have connected Red L-1 to Black T-1
I will have to reach out to Beaver for further clarification just to be safe..
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Would anyone have any pictures or video of the wiring setup coming from the EMS as it connect & runs into the transfer switch..?
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Jim, My shore power cable goes to the surge protector and then to the transfer switch. My setup looks exactly like your picture assuming that your pic is turned sideways. My Transfer switch is on the left. The bottom relay, on mine, is the shore side. The genie feeds the top relay. The colors on the incoming are a direct match up from one side of the relay to the other. From there the power, shore or genie, goes into what I call the Aladdin box because that is where the Aladdin picks up the AC legs, voltage and current to display. There are also 2 5 amp fuses in my Aladdin box. Sorry I don't have any pics but it's pretty straight forward in mine. I just matched color for color. If I can get in there tomorrow I'll take some pics.
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Jim,
The Black and Red are universally the two hot legs and the white is the neutral. You can verify that with a meter, you should see 120V from white to black and 120V white to red at the relays of the transfer switch. Those are your two hot legs coming to the transfer switch.
Regardless of how the protection device labels things as leg one or two is not an issue. You would follow their color code and maintain red to red, black to black, and white to white through the protection device and through the transfer switch. That is, wire the transfer device as it is now and the protection device as they show it in their literature and follow the color code black to black, red to red, white to white through both.
Later Ed
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Would anyone have any pictures or video of the wiring setup coming from the EMS as it connect & runs into the transfer switch..?
Jim, Easy way to find out which feed is gen or shore power is to do a voltage check in the transfer switch box with a volt meter with your shore power connected, red or black to grd/green or to white/neutral will be 120 Volts. Then make sure you unplug shore power and make sure the auto start for the gen is off and test the voltage again just to make sure the complete system is dead.
If you still are not sure what is going on, I would strongly suggest you get somebody with knowledge with electrical do this job.