BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Anand Shah on July 26, 2022, 05:28:04 PM
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Hi All
Still on the road now off the Cassiar highway… new problem that I have little ability to troubleshoot. Could use some help.
1. Last night all things worked fine.
2. We have rattled everything possible for many miles through terrible roads for the past few weeks (won’t bore you with the detail of how many things I’ve been fixing ;)
3. This morning tried to use the tea kettle on the MS2812 while inverting, it power cycled and we stopped. In case relevant.
4. Tried to start generator, runs fine. Aladdin first said one leg voltage was high, then shut it down and restarted and now says both leg voltages high at 134.
From searches people suggest it is a loose neutral or fuel starvation. Doesnt seem to be running lean though clearly purring with no load.
Any advice on where to start would be helpful as I’m trying to diagnose on the road with extremely limited internet.
Generator is 12.5 HDk-B and inverter is Ms2812 running lithiums
Anand
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Anand,
Have you checked generator output with a meter to see what it actually is? Have you tried to reset inverter if it is not working? If geni output is OK on meter, problem may be with Aladdin sensing torids in transfer switch.
Steve
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I also have Lithium's (600mahr) and 12.5K genset and set my charge current at 140A. When bulk charging and with additional load on the inverter charger leg of generator I find the unloaded leg voltage is high (about what you're seeing). Turning on A/C's will drop it. Not sure if there's remote voltage sense that causing the generator to want to regulate the highly loaded leg a higher "no load" voltage resulting in the unloaded leg high. I've not seen both legs high. But I would try disabling the charging and see where your voltages are at with little load on each leg and then try some loading experiments. Or you might try turning the A/Cs on and see if the higher voltage leg drops while charging on the opposite leg.
At 134V (just over the default upper limit of 132VAC on my SW2512) I'm not sure it's an issue. I've sort of been ignoring it but if you find there's a problem/fix please share.
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Another possible issue is a bad neutral connection which can cause voltage imbalance between the 2 legs when under different loading. There's a good description of why this happens here --> https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/changing-to-a-230-volt-water-heater-252931-3.html#post2633182
Next time I get out to my coach I will try to find where the neutral is bonded on the generator. Maybe I shouldn't have been ignoring what seems to be a similar problem as yours.
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Hi All -
Updated with a hope for some more precise help.
We got to shore power and had a similar problem, plugged in, everything worked fine until I tried to turn on an A/C. As soon as the compressor load started the Aladdin said low voltage (dropped to 90 ish) and the A/C died and everything 110 sort of went kaput, but it came back in a few seconds (sans A/C). I think I heard what sounded like a breaker resetting behind the wall near the transfer switch.
The generator started working at a normal voltage, but the same thing happens with a load (in yesterdays case with the microwave and kettle) but the voltage says too high (135). It seems that the generator with no load does that - measured at the terminals in the transfer switch. So Gene - I think this is normal.
I haven't opened the wall yet, will try that tomorrow. The wiring diagrams for my rig that I have with me doesn't show anything in between the transfer switch and electrical panel, nor between the plug and transfer switch or generator and transfer switch. Does anyone have any knowledge on what it could be? I'll hunt for what I thought I heard, but maybe one of you know something magical, or maybe I should be checking something at the electrical panel?
Regardless, given the issues on both shore and gen, it seems like it is in the transfer switch or after it; Even when it is running without heavy load, the microwave standby power seems to power cycle every 15-20 minutes (it plays a tune when it starts up) too.
Steve- the voltage measurements seem to be correct on the Aladdin from my readings at the transfer switch. The ammeter seems to be off but catches up. I'm also on a 30A dogbone so I'll cut it some slack. I don't think failing sensor board would cause this, but I'm pretty ignorant on electrical / AC electrical - though I'm useful on DC :)
Any and all help appreciated. This is becoming a problem as we get south.
Anand
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As I read more, I wonder if it is the transfer switch itself, or the solenoid? Though I hear the thud quite clearly when I connect to shore power. I wonder if the sound I heard was the solenoid opening and then closing again? Is that a potential issue?
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Anand,
Is your transfer switch a "Surge Guard"? That will make a thud when closing. I would also try and be plugged into a 50amp service to help trouble-shoot the situation. If you are using a 30amp dogbone adaptor, you are giving up 70amps of power and at the same time combining both 120volt legs together. Marquis's with all there 120volt requirements really struggle on 30amps. Please advise, Fred
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That’s what I was thinking; an adapter cheats you out of power on its own, but also if an additional length of cord goes from the dogbone to the park box you’re coughing up even more voltage. And not all adapters are quality, or yours may be damaged inside. Been there, dun that. When connected and using an appliance, how hot does the adapter get? As voltage at the appliance drops it needs to draw more current to meet it’s rated work (watts), and more current draw means heat that cords, adapters, and appliance components weren’t made to tolerate. Breakers and surge protectors can guard against that, but you don’t want to keep pressing them.
As Fred notes, find a (quality) 50amp parking spot and see what ensues.
Joel
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Fred, Joel, Steve, Gene -
Yes, it is a surge guard - I haven not found an RV park available yet with a 50A connection in the past 1300 miles to try. I'm going to go to the only RV shop near Calgary that will see me in the morning to see if it is the transfer switch, I'm sure they have a 50A connection to test. See below.
I *think* the heating up cable is an unrelated problem. It was happening when I had a crumbling plug, which I replaced. I replaced the dogbone today with a better one and will report back tomorrow. I'm at a park now with 30A.
Generator works, provides 125V each leg until I give it load. The Aladdin cycles through "Shore Power Selected" a few times before it says "Gen Set Power Selected" - it seems a few more times than it used to. If I turn on the microwave the transfer switch drops out and the voltage jumps on the Aladdin to 135V on each leg.
On shore 30 A - Aladdin only shows AMPs on one leg. It drops out every few minutes. The AMPS drop to 0, everything on it dies for a second, and then comes back. If I give it load it drops out and says under voltage.
Inverter works fine, though it not charging very well with the intermittent shore power. Currently recharging with Solar and the 60A DC-DC on 8-9 hour drive days.
My best guess is the Transfer switch. Tracing back steps, it seems that the failure started when the generator was started while there was a load - I think the Tea Kettle was running on the inverter but inverter wasn't happy and we started the generator; that seems to be consistent with what I've been able to gather causes Transfer Switch issues. There is nothing behind the wall - cable comes straight from the spool to the transfer switch and from generator to transfer switch.
Will report back on what I gather - feel free to share any input you might have and feel free to call or text. I need all the help I can get. About to boondock for a few days from Friday and it is going to be like a hot tent without power working :)
Anand
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Is your inverter remote set for the actual 30 amp input, or is it on 20 or 50?
The single active leg you see on your Aladdin is correct for 30amps. It’s feeding only one 120v wire set into the Coach. A 50amp source feeds two 120v wire sets so the coach can provide two 120v “legs”, which you then will see on your Aladdin. Commonly each can then carry an air conditioner, for example.
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Your comment,
"Tracing back steps, it seems that the failure started when the generator was started while there was a load - I think the Tea Kettle was running on the inverter but inverter wasn't happy and we started the generator; that seems to be consistent with what I've been able to gather causes Transfer Switch issues,"
leads me to remember that about a year ago our Transfer Switch was acting wonky so I replaced it. Over several years I had neglected to shut off the ACs, for example, when changing between the generator and shore power. I read in the Forum that forcing the Transfer Switch to switch between power sources (generator to shore, and vice versa) while under a heavy load will scar the contact surfaces in the Transfer Switch. The scarring can lead to inconsistent connectivity between the contact surfaces.
After the Transfer Switch was replaced about a year ago, we have had very few issues.
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Thanks all, and for educating me.
New dogbone solved plug issues. Shouldn’t have gone cheap in the first place :)
Replacing transfer switch. Nothing seems to speak to the Aladdin. Will be missed. Going to go with simple that works and try to figure out Aladdin version later - I think there is a way to get the TRC 40350-RVC to do so.
Anand
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Anand,
Mountain View Farming RV Park in Chestermere, just east of Calgary had 50A when I was there in 2015.
Steve
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Steve - thanks, will try them. This is a long weekend here and really hard to find spots, but will try on my way out of Calgary next week as we will need a place to stay.
Worked with Tech to test the transfer switch. Gave it load while on Generator, if worked for 5 mins and the switch popped and showed 3v on the output side to both legs.
Replaced the switch with what they had - 41260 - and tested on 30A at the shop for 30 mins running two ACs and then on Generator for 30 mins. All seems to be working now though I keep tripping the pedestal breaker at the RV park I’m at if I turn on a single AC. I don’t think the pedestal can provide a full 30A. But will have to make do for now. At least I can run the generator and used the roof ACs when needed and charge batteries when I’m off the grid in Bannf for the next week.
Best
Anand
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West of Calgary is Cochrane, off 1A near the foot of the mountains and on the way to Banff and the parks. There are at least 3 RV parks there, and we stayed at Springhill RV Park in 2012. We also visited Bow RiversEdge RV Park, but didn’t stay there… it’s a pretty nice park. While driving through we stopped to jabber with owners of a nice Beaver and they invited us for an enjoyable evening of visiting. Both parks are higher quality with 50amp available. A third park is Triple Diamond. It’s got good reviews but I can’t speak to it personally.
Cochran is a nice town with full services; we had a Saskatchewan rock chip in our coach windshield fixed there, and enjoyed a walk downtown with pizza and waited in a long line on the street for delicious but popular ice cream.
I’d guess reservations will be necessary at Bow or Springhill; both parks were quite full. We used our toad several times between our coach there and a cousin’s retirees apartment in Calgary, and it was easy access to the Parks the other direction when it came time to vamoose. Proximity to the Parks is likely why Cochran facilities are popular among tourists.
As with most Canadian parks, RV sites are relatively narrow so they can pack ‘em in. You may already have noticed that, and Bow RiversEdge is no exception. But they have nice privacy hedges separating sites. Springhill wasn’t as bad as some, but is at the convergence of two main highways, so truck noise may bother some, and trucks often fill up at the park’s large and busy fuel stop. The RV park itself is gated, which caused a slight issue when one night we arrived home after-hours from Calgary.
https://bowriversedge.com/
https://www.springhillrvpark.ca/
There are a number of parks north up Hwy 22 you could check out.
Joel
aka Hafcanadian
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Updating this thread for future folks looking for answers. Turns out the transfer switch was bad and apparently I caused it with my Lithium install. Noticed that the power was fluctuating on generator and shore after putting a new transfer switch, and the culprit was that the inverter was sending as much charge to the 1200AH of Lithiums I installed would take. This was putting at times 150A+ at 12V, regardless of input Amps. Started removing individual loads to diagnose the issues and it was the charger on the inverter that solved it. I guess it isn't only the Alternator one needs to worry about.
Have limited the charging amps now to 60A on the Magnum 2812 and may have solved my problem. I'm pretty certain I damaged the old TS, but will have it tested when I get home.
On a side note, thank you for all the park recommendations. They do pack em in tight. We stayed at a nice amusement park campground called Calaway - only 30A but kids (10 and 7) loved it.
Anand
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Glad you figured it out! These kinds of issues can make your head spin and discourage the whole RV experience! Even better, thank you for sharing with us the whole adventure. Marquis do not normally like boondocking, but you have soldiered on and made the best of the situation and those who have followed this thread have learned from your experience. Blessings & Joy my friend! Fred
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Glad you were able to figure it out and also get the parts you needed. Not easy task, especially now, while on the road. Thanks for taking the time to update the forum.
When I installed my lithiums I disabled the alternator coach battery charge feature and set the AC input current limit to limit charger current to about 120A into my 600hr install. I've always had the habit of turning off the inverter when changing an AC input (on or off). It always seemed a little extreme to me (since it should be designed to be reliably able to operate that way) but after hearing your story I think you reinforced that behavior. Sometimes I also open the storage bay doors by the inverter to get better airflow at the inverter if batteries are very low and it's going to take several hrs to charge.
BTW, I recently completed a week of dry camping and was really happy with my lithium upgrade. I would run the geni 2-3 hr/day to charge batteries (usually mid day or late PM as it got warm outside so would also run A/C). I was able to easily run on battery until the next day running pretty much any inverter loads I wanted without issues (electronics, microwave, coffee pot, etc). Never used more than 300-400Ahr in a 24hr period.
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Thank you all for the input. New transfer switch isn’t working on Genset now (agh) and I’m boondocked for 5 days in Banff. On top of that limited hours allowed for using Gen sets anyways. Putting the Marquis to a boondock challenge for sure. I have 36 hours to go and have started regulating fridge hours and water… 1200 AH is not enough to last for 5 days without concern and Solar isn’t doing the job in the valleys.
@gene your advice is appreciated on both opening doors and limits.
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I'm not sure what the problem really is with the genset, because we boondocked in the Lake Louise overflow, and after I hurt my leg wet-wading and flyfishing the Bow, we were there for nearly 2 weeks while I healed. Yes we were in an open area, but our solar is only 100w so we ran the generator once a day for 2 hours, and managed just fine. That adventure was followed by several days at Mosquito Creek without hookups (photo below). Given the surroundings and the fun I had flyfishing, it made for unforgettable memories. Just wish I'd had my GoPro then, and maybe a drone ;D.
Learn to manage your appliances, i.e. know what each uses in amps, and relax; you can't beat the environment there. It's no place to carry worrys around in.
Joel
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Anand,
Did you check the circuit breaker located on the generator? Sometimes if the compressors on 2 or more air conditioners cycle on at the same time, it will trip the generator circuit breaker. Fred
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I did, also tested for voltage at the transfer switch from the generator. Sends 130v on both legs and the neutral to ground is also proper from what I can tell. No voltage at output when on Genny. I’m at shore power now and shore power works, just doesn’t switch to Generator. Going back to the guys that installed in on Monday. Survived 5 days of boondocking by running the engine the last two days for 2 hours and using the fridge for 8 hours a day. I’m using 20A / hour at minimal load with the fridge on, The Starlink and charging portable devices. That gets me 60 hours; it certainly worked well, But only for those 60 hours ;)