BAC Forum
General Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on May 31, 2015, 04:56:08 AM
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Traveled from Bismark, ND to Great Falls, MT yesterday on I 94 and MT200S, which was quite rough in some sections. About 20 miles east of Great Falls we hit a construction zone with a 35 mph speed limit. I happened to glance in the mirror and saw my toad (2002 Jeep Liberty) pulling out like it was going to pass me. It headed across the oncoming lane, down a small incline and onto a flat area, then started up an embankment before running into the incline and stopping. Talk about a helpless feeling watching it roll. I was surprised the breakaway system didn’t stop it until I got to the back of the coach. The baseplate and bumper assy of the Liberty was still attached to the towbar. The Liberty frame had failed, tearing away where the baseplate was attached. Jeep is drive-able. Today I rigged some temp front turn signals and Monday AM will head to a welding shop to get baseplate remounted.
The frame metal is VERY thin. I mounted it per Blue Ox instructions (verified today). Liberty uses a box frame channel that is probably strong enough for normal use but not when you mount a baseplate that is stressing only one wall of the frame (IMHO). If you have an early Jeep Liberty, you may want to check your baseplate connection. Mine let loose with no warning or noise, etc. Had I not seen it I probably would have driven into Great Falls before realizing the toad was missing. Backup camera stays on from now on. Mounted baseplate in April 2009 and probably have 55K+ miles on it. And the adventure continues…….
Steve
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Steve, glad things turned out ok, for the most part. That is why my breakaway switch and attach point on the moho are mounted to separate places. Meaning, that if my hitch is torn off the moho or the tow bar attach points fail on the toad, my breakaway will still work. Food for thought. Marty
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Steve,
So glad that this was not worse then it was. That is an experience one would not easily forget. Hope you get this all back together and you can continue your trip.
Later Ed
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Wow, what an eerie experience you had. This is a great reason to always check everything.
I had my disconnect pin stop working when pulling it, I had to replace the box as it had rusted inside and wasn't disconnecting and opening the circuit.
Glad it wasn't much worse for you....
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Glad it turned out OK .. Wow ... something similar happened to me 6 years ago when the base plate bolts came loose. I had it welded on to my 2001 JGC. I didn't think Jeeps had thin frame members.
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You can never let your guard down when towing anything. Lost the left bracket of the baseplate behind the bumper on a Blue Ox. Installed on a 2011 Traverse when car was purchased. Metal fatigue on a10k lb towing assy. If we would have called and reported it right away they would have replaced it at no cost to us. Procrastion has never worked for me. Happened after 2014 Xmas rally. We can all count are blessings that there is no injury to the public that I'm aware of.
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Steve,
It seems like a drastic measure to pull the toad quick release just to see how far away the new toad tire sensors will communicate with the base unit. My guess is once the toad headed up the embankment you no longer knew or cared what the tire pressures were :-) Hopefully this memory is fading fast and you are ready for a smile, .....
So how are you are coming with getting things back together. You have been on my mind during our 400mile run to Raton NM today. It was windy with some showers here, so we had to stay on our toes a bit...
Later Ed
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Ed,
Darn! I forgot to look at the TPMS monitor. Guess I was to engrossed watching to see if the front end alignment on the Jeep kept it rolling straight. :)
Will follow up with another reply covering status and pictures.
Steve
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I got all the wiring repaired this weekend so the brake system and toad lights are working when attached to the RV. Also rigged some clearance lights from WalMart as front turn signals so am legal again. A lot of the front end trim is held together with zip ties but it's all plastic anyway..
Went to the welding shop today. Was recommended by a number of locals as the best shop in Great Falls. My thought was that they could possibly weld a couple of plates to the frame and beef them up so the baseplate could be re-attached. No joy. They were very concerned that the resulting brittleness of the metal around the welds coupled with the thinness of the frame material would result in a similar failure waiting to happen. We looked at the Roadmaster baseplate and found that it had a totally different and much more robust mounting system. I decided to have it installed as the alternatives were ugly (leave Jeep here and fly back to get it or have DW drive it which she was not about to do). So, Jeep stays here and we'll pick it up on our return from Canada, where we will be "toadless".
I spoke to Blue Ox briefly today, Will follow up with them once I send pics to them. My biggest concern is that this appears to be an intrinsic problem that may happen to others. In other circumstances this failure could result in injuries or fatalities.
If you have an 02-04 Jeep Liberty with a Blue Ox baseplate, please contact Blue Ox or your installer to see if they can offer any alternatives to strengthen the system. Mine failed after 6 years and 50K towing miles.
Steve
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Steve,
Good photo summary. Cleary this is not an issue of loose bolts working sheet metal, the car metal sheared that was part of the Jeep frame. Not sure if welds broke and that began to work the metal. It looks like a pretty robust mounting system but obviously not up to the task..... scary.
I have mounted two Blue Ox units on Hondas and felt good about the attachment system. I have to say that I followed that up with mounting one of their Blue Ox baseplate units on a Mini Cooper which utilizes some small bolts that the Mini had as bumper attachment points that I have never been comfortable with so I limit my towing of that car to short trips. I questioned Blue Ox engineering and they quoted tensile strength of the bolt size used on the Mini and said they had not had any issues with the mount.....I do not want to be the first.
Hard for any of us to know if they have pushed things too far.
Good luck with the new baseplate, hopefully it does not need any of the damaged mounting points. I wonder if you could get your insurance company involved in this, I know that has a down side, but it could be possible that they total out the car and have you get a new toad. Not sure they would want the liability of trying to weld in frame there or even add a new baseplate as a repair given the damage. Just a thought....
Later Ed
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Ed,
I had same thought once I got past being 100% consumed by getting the unit to tow again. I'm concerned about the loss of strength at the front cross member where the frame rails attach since 25%+ is missing. Called the welding shop this AM and discussed strengthening the area but they were adamant that they would not weld to the frame due to the thiness. So, I put them on hold until the ins adjuster looks at it and decides on status.
Still raining. Left AZ on the 19th and have seen about 4 days w/o rain (I'd never make it as a Portland resident). 8)
Steve
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Steve, this may be an opinion you don't what to have, ... but I think the welding shop is correct about not welding on the remaining portion of the frame. From looking at your photos I believe the frame broke in a brittle manner. A good quality steel should bend & stretch before finally failing, iron will fail in a brittle manner, steel shouldn't. Even in a localized brittle failure you should see evidence of stretching and pulling in some areas away from the initial brittle failure. I see little indication of bending in your photos, only a series of brittle failures, as confirmed on the flat portion of the cross member. That member should have torn and than bent before finally failing in tension, inside it broke without bending at all. The frame simply fractured (brittle like glass). The frame is obviously very thin and the slight bending action of the tow bar with time could make it even more brittle. Now, repair welding could easily make the remaining thin frame members even more brittle. In addition, the remaining frame member just looks too thin to receive a good quality weld. Think of it as putting super glue on tissue paper. Probably fish plates bolted to areas of the remaining frame members that could allow reassembly of the bumper and use the car would be fine for normal driving, but I wouldn't recommend pulling it again with the towbar.
Sorry, just my opinion.
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Grant,
I'm thinking along the same lines. I'm going to try to get a body shop frame guy to look at it prior to ins adjuster.
Thx, Steve
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Steve,
Know you must be busy so no rush on this, just get to it when you have some down time. I have been pondering and have no answer why the breakaway brake control did not take over and stop the Jeep? We might all learn something from the answer...
Later Ed
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Ed,
Because I had it hooked to the baseplate. The brake system instructions (just checked) said to be sure it was mounted to metal. The front of the Liberty is all plastic so the only metal attach that gave me a point that I could access the breakaway for hook up was on the baseplate itself.
Steve
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Steve looking at pictures of face plate and cannot agree more with the welding shops thoughts.
Today's tow vehicles are made different from years ago. Thin metal running gear and unit box
welding. High tensil steel very thin really leaves nothing to get a strong weld. Your type of repair
leaves few options and would suggest fab with T-1 metal plate .250 and rebuild from from inside of the frame tube and sandwich metal plate to the out side of frame, going back along motor to motor
mount. Just a suggestion to think about. At Quartzsite I have repaired many toad hitch face plates
with our snowbird coming in for winter. Would be happy to assist you with your problem if you
choose to repair unit. ( I have a very complete welding / machine shop setup at Quartzsite )
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave,
Thx for the info and offer. Will decide on next steps after adjuster looks at it today. Spoke with him yesterday and he noted that frame repair on airbag equipped vehicles is interesting since air bag deployment timing is dependent on the crumple rate of the front end. If, after repair the frame is too strong, deployment is delayed and too weak deployment is too early.
So, we'll see after he looks at it.
Steve
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That is very true with toads behind motor homes and a very good point for all people thinking
About pulling with wheels down. Company's building and selling base plates I do not think under
stand just removing bolts and add on there product, all that is ahead. Your pictures really point
out a real problem that has caught everyone attention. With the air bag safety a feature as selling
vehicle, now pulling a vehicle wheels down with a add on base plate also presents just if not
more a safety problem having a toad come loose at 60 mph in traffic. That is where repair comes
in to play ( keeping toad connected to motorhome and beef up connection point, yes a welding
shop can fab something. By doing so will shut down the air bag safety feature.) Again this is a
problem insurance company will have to pay out or have base plate mfg. build to there standards.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
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I've not been following this thread because its title referred to Jeeps and I didn't figure it would be relevant to me, not ever having owned one. But this a.m. curiosity got me and I checked it out. It is relevant to me after-all, at least as a fellow highway user.
I too have always figured a Jeep would have a stout frame given its reputation for off-roading. A couple of relatives had Liberty's at one time or another, and they did seem a bit less attuned to much 4X4 activity as compared to a Wrangler, but then so does my Explorer Limited. I've noted my Roadmaster brackets, however, are fastened to some pretty thick frame members under the Explorer, at least compared to what's in your photos.
I would think that beyond alerting others here about the issue, Chrysler/Jeep should be sent the information and pix, and perhaps the NTHB. If Jeep is going to continue touting its vehicles as tough and tow-able 4-down, perhaps they need to consider a design change. Admittedly yours is an older model, but I'm not sure any manufacturer is building new ones with any thicker and less brittle steel these days.
Joel
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Joel,
Good idea re Chrysler/Fiat.
Got some good news today from ins co. Adjuster is from body shop industry and appears very knowledgeable re frame issues. He verified that the Roadmaster "baseplates" could be safely attached to the car as is. They have multiple mounting points on each side, none of which are near the tear out areas of the frame. This will get me back to SUNNY AZ where I can get the rest of the work completed. 8)
Steve
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That's great news, Steve. Keep us clued in on any further developments.
Joel
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Update;
Picked up Jeep from Specialty Iron Works in Great Falls on the 12th. The Roadmaster "baseplate" attachment looked very secure. No problems towing it back to AZ. Found a bumper in FL (in right color!) and will pick up tomorrow. The Roadmaster "baseplate' provided support for the frame but I decided to have the torn crossmember repaired anyway. (Would have had a hard time sleeping it I ever sold the Liberty). Removed baseplate today to enable frame repair. It was tied into the Jeep frame structure in 7 different locations, vs the Blue Ox that had 4 bolts in 2 locations.
On the home stretch...
Steve
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Question and update;
Does anyone have a 2002-2004 Jeep Liberty with a Roadmaster 1422-1 tow bracket installed? If so, any info on the amount of bumper fascia trimming would be appreciated. I'm ready to mount the bumper and it looks like a bit of trimming will be required but I sure would like to see what a completed unit looks like before I begin "hacking" away at the bumper.... :)
As noted earlier, the Roadmaster bracket has a much more robust mounting approach IMHO. While the Blue Ox utilized 4 bolts in 2 locations at the junction of the frame rails and front cross-member, the Roadmaster has 10 bolts (4 of which are existing sub-frame and cross-member bolts) that tie into the front end at 7 different locations. It looks to me like Blue Ox could have easily run braces back to the existing sub-frame bolts, increasing the strength at minimal cost.
Thx! Steve