BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: LaMonte Monnell on November 30, 2015, 07:58:18 PM
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Well, I just got a call from CAT Brooksville hoping the MH was finished today, been there since 30th of August.
Wednesday the foreman drove the coach after pulling the radiator loose and finding insulation and some debris at the bottom of the cowl sandwiched between CAC and radiator. He said 95% sure that's causing the overheat issue. Pulled out the junk and reinstalled it. Ran coach and temp was 200 degrees.
Said he wanted to keep it till Monday( today), ( 5 more days because of the holiday) and run it again to be sure. Now he states it is running hotter than before. wants to pull radiator out again and send to radiator shop. Said it will be next Monday before they get it to him and opened up. Another week to go now. Missed our trip for thanksgiving, Christmas trip the 19th not looking good now. Wish I had not taken it now and tried to do the work myself.
I have never had an overheat issue in the 4 years I have owned it, ever. Never been above 210 ever, and that was in the mountains of Tennessee in July!
Now since they worked on it they are guessing at stuff. I had a great opinion of their shop but now I am questioning it all!
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Monte,
IMHO it's time to get out of there and find another shop.
Steve
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If I do that then I will have to pay enormous amounts of labor out to someone else. Just came from there. They are pulling the radiator out and sending to local shop, they are not open again till the 7th...vacation I guess???
First they said it was the debris they found and 95% sure causing the overheat. Then put it back together without pulling radiator out to shop. Then last Wednesday he drove it, 200 degrees....Today he says its 217........???
I am anxious to see the radiator opened up and if its clogged up badly........if it's not then they may have a lot bigger issue to fix at their expense........
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LA Monte,
I understand. It could be a clogged radiator as the rear radiator design certainly lends itself to gathering debris and oil blowby, etc. I saw a 3126B radiator that had only about a 12" diameter area in front of the fan that was clear. The result was a blown engine. I cleaned mine after every long trip and had it steam cleaned about once a year.
What surprised me with your problem is the apparent sudden onset of the symptoms.
Good Luck!
Steve
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LaMonte, My suggestion as before all flags point to your unit is not heating other than
people selling service. ( do not take me the wrong way but you need to remove it from
there shop.) It is put all together at present and drivable. I have presented before with
all indications direction they were going. Think I can pin point to fault with heat indicator
as I incated before. Reason Mechanic ran unit on test drive and heat 225 F but failed to bleed
air from engine head. Where the flag popped up you indicated there was no loss of coolant
and temp again 225 F. Next they stated Radiator limed up and heating problem ( temp different
between top and bottom of radiator ). That was there last story pull radiator and send out.
than comes along the radiator clogged with insulation. Here is the point between the radiator
pulled and now radiator plugged with insulation. The really pugged up the radiator which
you said felt was the big problem. Again If this is there story told to you. Point to point out
to you in your favor, the engine is set up fan (charged air cooler radiator ) than the radiator.
with all the debris inbetween the charge air cooler and radiator ( debris stopping point ) let
look at the entry point the charged air cooler radiator that will catch first amount of insulation
being fan is pushing loose insulation into the charged air cooler and some made it way to radiator
core. Did they clean the charged air cooler radiator at same time because that is where the
most of the debris would plug first. Again every road we take is very hard to justify what they are
doing and heating problem going back to the begining was not present. I looked up your
problem on my Cat Tech information and things do not lean in what is going on. I myself would
suggest again remove your unit to a area away from that shop. I think we can round up some
fellow beaver members to jump in and I can provide all Cat tech Information off Cat SIS hard copy
and walk you through your difficult time that you do not need.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Jerry Emert, Answering Question about heating. the thermostat opening for your
Cat C-12. ( 208 F )
Full opening for Cat C-9 ( 208 F ) Begin to open thermostat ( 191 F ) This may shed some light
with LaMonte engine also.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, my engine runs at 188 no matter what. I don't think I've ever seen it different after warm up. It is the transmission that is running at 215 or so. Or am I misunderstanding?
Thanks
Jerry
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This whole overheat problem just doesn't smell right. Are they positive that the motor is actually at that high a temp or are they just reading the sending unit temp? Did they use a laser temp device to actually check the motor temp, radiator temp, top and bottom hoses. You can laser the thermostat housing and actually see the thermostat open. Is the coolant pump actually moving the coolant? Sounds like they (shop) is just throwing parts and labor at this in the hope they actually land on the problem.
I would hope because this is a Cat dealer shop that they would know what they are doing, I looked up reviews for this shop and did not find any bad remarks.
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This whole overheat problem just doesn't smell right. Are they positive that the motor is actually at that high a temp or are they just reading the sending unit temp? Did they use a laser temp device to actually check the motor temp, radiator temp, top and bottom hoses. You can laser the thermostat housing and actually see the thermostat open. Is the coolant pump actually moving the coolant? Sounds like they (shop) is just throwing parts and labor at this in the hope they actually land on the problem.
I would hope because this is a Cat dealer shop that they would know what they are doing, I looked up reviews for this shop and did not find any bad remarks.
Well Lee, they did pull the thermostats and rechecked them for opening. Also used the laser method on radiator and hooked up a gauge of theirs to check temps.
First time out it was 225......then they started pulling radiator, found the insulation debris in front of it. Then he said I am 95% sure this is the overheat reason, so I said ok, I guess put it back together. Then he ran it again....200 degrees....seems good he says....I agree...He wanted to wait till after the four day weekend and drive it again to be sure. He drove it and now 217 degrees.
Now he thinks the radiator core itself is clogged, going to pull it this week and take to radiator shop to open it. But they are closed till 7th...so we wait....
They said if radiator is not the issue then they will take care of removal and installation expense. And they are already a month past when I needed it back....
Never have I seen it above 210...and that was in Tennessee last July when it was 100 degrees out!
All they did was:
rear wheel bearing seals/both sides
thermostats
serpentine belt
water pump belt
new a/c compressor
receiver/dryer
section of a/c hose/leak replaced section of hose
replaced both high and low a/c ports/leaks
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It just doesn't seem right that all this started after they did the work the first time. I remember a overheat issue once where a mech placed a shop rag in the upper rad hose to keep it from dripping and when he put it back together he didn't remove the rag and bingo washed in to the rad and overheat problem, they found it when they took the rad apart thinking of re coring it.
I had a tech leave a rag in the air intake on my 77 Freightline removing the rad cap and it got sucked into the air cleaner, had to jack up the cap and remove the air cleaner to get it out. I installed the gear upside down on a Chevy distributor and took awhile to figure out why it would not seat properly in the motor.
One little slip can cause so much work.
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Well , I am hoping it is not a rag, but they are supposed to call me when the radiator guy opens it up for me to see the core.
I have doubts that this is the issue, but I am kind of stuck here now. I just want it repaired so I can use it again..... >:(
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I feel your pain, hope they actually find the problem.
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Lee, I think many of us have the same thoughts, but we, at this point LaMonte is at there
little gig and Has spent many sleepless nights on this subject. This is why this beaver forum
is ever so important to make membership having problems with real cross of experience and
many different thoughts. Let give LaMonte our support like everyone is doing and how he can
get back on the road a minimal expence. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I feel your pain, hope they actually find the problem.
Update.....Radiator and CAC removed from coach, picked up by radiator shop this afternoon. He is going to call me once he gets it opened up to look at.
Service manager did allow me to enter the service bay. I spent the day removing the old insulation and replacing it all with new. I found one area that a rat or squirrel had dug thru some pressed board into the foam insulation. I am going to cut a new board and replace that tomorrow and finish up the engine bay areas. Get a look at the radiator and press on from there. They keep using a charger on my batteries as all they have is 110 outlets in there.
Hopefully we will be able to get to the next step soon as I am tired of the stress and aggravation to say the least! Thanks for all the support along the way, it has really helped me keep me from my boiling point!
Radiator out and at the radiator shop on 12-3. Went by there today 12-4 and they say that the radiator is fine, no sediment and only a small amount of outer corner areas that need cleaning. Did pressure check and very good. Not causing any overheat issue. I picked up the CAC and took there today 12-4, they are going to pressure wash and do an air leak test on it since it is already out too. Probably be done with both by Tuesday or Wednesday next week.
CAT pulled the new thermostats back out this afternoon, not sure what they are going to do, haven't told me anything. At least the compartment is done now and ready to reinstall everything. Not sure what they have planned for the overheat condition now. The saga will continue next week....
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LaMonte:
I have been following your post on your issue and can understand your frustration. Going back to what they had originally worked on, did the Fan Belt get checked for Proper installation (path). I know this might sound ridiculous, however, my first attempt at replacing my fan belt, I had routed it incorrectly using my memory. Once I compared it to my photo I took, my thoughts were, how could I mess this up. I never started the engine with the fan belt miss routed, so I don't know what the result would have been. What I do know, is that it was miss routed and it looked right but had a little too much slack to my liking so out came the photo.
One more bit of info: I have used this Cat Company several times, and Every time, there was an issue. My trust with this particular Cat facility, (St Augustine & Daytona), has been diminished.
Larry D
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Sorry that you have had issues Larry! I know that I try to do what I can myself, but this was beyond my capabilities so I put my trust in them.
Of course everyone has told me to take it to the Cat service if you need anything done to the engine. That is why it is there. They have had the new thermostats out once and late yesterday they were pulling them again. I did ask them about the belt routing, also the fan being correctly installed.
Radiator guy wanted to know if they replaced the new thermostats a second time? I think they are going to do that now. Radiator is clean and they are going to eat the cost of cleaning and labor costs for the R & R of that.
I still say something they did: thermostats , belts, or fan has to be it, but they are the experts they told me and will get it done at their cost now.....
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Sorry that you have had issues Larry! I know that I try to do what I can myself, but this was beyond my capabilities so I put my trust in them.
Of course everyone has told me to take it to the Cat service if you need anything done to the engine. That is why it is there. They have had the new thermostats out once and late yesterday they were pulling them again. I did ask them about the belt routing, also the fan being correctly installed.
Radiator guy wanted to know if they replaced the new thermostats a second time? I think they are going to do that now. Radiator is clean and they are going to eat the cost of cleaning and labor costs for the R & R of that.
I still say something they did: thermostats , belts, or fan has to be it, but they are the experts they told me and will get it done at their cost now.....
I had this issue with a Harley back in 2004...they could not get a bike repaired so it ran correct, ended up replacing that bike with a newer one, and custom painted the sidecar to match the new one and installed it free of charge......then after all that they refused to work on it......
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Lamote, sure glad to hear things are going back together and you now reniforced your point
on the radiator, ( cost is on them ). I would suggest, being the radiator was ok all along and they
choose not to send radiator out first time as indicated to you and spending additional time removing
Charged Air Cooler of which would have been cleaned when the radiator first was to be removed.
Being cards in your favor, there is a lot of labor that was not called starting when they told
you the thermostats needed to come back out to check if problem. There is also a Cat Hot Line
Number you can call if they try push heavy on the pencil on your billing. I do know one thing
Caterpillar Hot line does not like hearing something that you have just went through. A little
food for thought on your motorhome being in there service shop for a month on a very simple
repair. From Cat business stand point that service bay has to generate X amount of money daily,
and having your motorhome in that bay someone has to account for what is going on. This also
tells me being retired cat mechanic, business work must be very slow on the earthmoving side.
Hope to see you at some of the rallys in the south in the spring and can recheck your engine
with Cat ET to make sure you do not have something over looked.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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LaMonte,
This has been a trial for you and I agree that there is something in the mix of repairs that they did that likely caused this. Thermostats are top on my list but that is just a somewhat educated guess. I had my last motorhome go down in Denver due to a faulty cat fuel filter redesign and they treated me right after I had to be towed in. Hopefully they will do what is right here also...
Later Ed
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I forgot about the Cat Hot line, I'd have lite it on fire by this time and the manager at that Cat dealer would know me personally by now.
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[ There is also a Cat Hot Line
Number you can call if they try push heavy on the pencil on your billing. I do know one thing
Caterpillar Hot line does not like hearing something that you have just went through.
[/quote]
What is the number for the CAT Hotline? I'm going to call tomorrow and talk with them.
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Lamote, Call Caterpillar Factory Customer Services ( 24 hour service )
800-447-4986. this is the process Step 1, Discuss problem with dealership.
Step 2, appears problem cannot be readily resolved at dealership contact,
Step 3 , Caterpillar Factory Customer Services 800-447-4986
Cat Office of Business Practice 309-494-4393
first may be very helpful 800-300-7898 open 24 hour and indepent service that will write down
all information and push it up ladder
E-mail: Businesspractices@cat.com
Been awhile since had to use this information but would suggest in contact first 800-300-7898
any Questions that I can help you with will help out. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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LaMonte
Not to take away from what others are saying.
If I understand correctly you have a rear radiator? There is an inline transmission cooler? Built into the coolant hose? If this is right has this unit been checked? Any chance it could get hot and begin restricting coolant flow?
Something simple has been overlooked in this story somewhere.
If there is no restriction in the coolant flow in the engine, ie the thermostat. If none of the hoses are collapsed and the radiator is not blocked inside or out then something was overlooked. Perhaps the waterpump. I have had one go on a car that was turning properly but the impeller inside the pump was hit and miss.
Best
Keith