BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: David T. Richelderfer on September 09, 2015, 04:13:55 AM
-
My research locally in Hermiston, Oregon (295/80R22.5, 16 ply, mounted & balanced, H rating) per tire:
Les Schwab Toyo $546.06
" Bridgestone $777.15
" Michelin $943.16
Commercial Tire Yokohama $550.42
" Bridgestone $669.74
Hagerman Yokohama $500.11
" Michelin $866.00
Tire Factory Goldway $428.65 (18 ply, J rating)
(Firestone)
Obviously, the Goldway is tempting due to price and higher load rating. But I define the Yokohama and Goldway as Tier 3 tires... or worse. I would define the Toyo as a Tier 2... and I do not want to go lower than a Tier 2. Soooo... in the next week or so, baring a revelation, I will likely order up a 5-pack of Toyos from Les Schwabs. I put new 315/80R22.5 Dunlops on the front last year, and two years ago I damaged and replaced an outside dual.
-
David,
I moved from Michelin XZA2 Energy Tires to Toyo M144s due to price. I would not call a Toyo tire a tier 2 tire, they are engineered in Japan and made in Japan which has excellent engineering and quality control skills. They weigh about the same physically which says they have the same amount of material in them. They are rated at 80MPH and carry similar loads. The Michelins were made in Germany. The Toyos have just a touch stiffer ride but that stiffer sidewall provides a little more stability in tracking and steering so it is a tradeoff.
I would say there is no fundamental reason to call them a tier 2 tire. If they were made in China, Korea, or Vietnam then I would put them down the list as a tier 2 because of where they are sourced. I'm very careful regarding tires and this is just my two cents...
Later Ed
-
Dave, Ed,
Please define the"tier" ratings for those of us that are tire selection novices.
Thx, Steve
-
Dave, is that L.Schwab Michelin price FMCA program? I thought I'd go down to Junction City's Les Scwab (aka Bob Dickman Tire Center) for tires this fall, as they are about as experienced with motor homes as anyone. They participate in the FMCA Michelin thing, but Toyos seem well-reviewed and available at the same place as you note.
Joel
-
Ed - This is what I found on defining the word "tier" regarding tires. It's not tightly defined, but this is copied and pasted from this link:
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/channel/retailing/article/story/2013/11/what-is-a-tier-two-tire-tier-three.aspx
"1. Tier One is made up of the major tire companies’ premium brands. “They carry the highest price tags and have the highest profit margins for the manufacturers.” Examples: Bridgestone, Goodyear and Michelin.
"2. Tier Two is made up of the tire companies’ mid-market brands. “The marketing effort for these tires is not as extensive as for Tier One tires.” Examples: Firestone, Dunlop, BFGoodrich, Continental, Yokohama and Toyo.
"3. Tier Three is made up of “value” brand tires. “These tires are marketed to consumers who are more concerned with price than a brand name.” They also have the lowest profit margins. Examples: GT Radial, Runway, Primewell, Douglas and Riken."
No, Joel, I have not looked into the FMCA-Michelin buying program for this purchase. I tried looking into it two years ago when I replaced that one damaged tire, but never figured out how to access it. Anyways, the buying program would have to be available to my Les Schwab's or better yet, to my golf friend's truck shop, Brad Hagerman. Relative to my Les Schwab's the buying program would have to save me $400 per tire, and to Hagerman's the buying program would have to save me over $300 per tire. I doubt that much savings is in the buying program, but I don't know that for sure. Perhaps someone can clue me in on how to access that buying program.
-
I replaced the 10 year old Goodyear's with the Toyo's as soon as I bought the coach. The little bit I drove on the Goodyears I wasn't impressed , but when I first drove on the Toyo's I could tell a major improvement right away.
LaMonte
-
David, thanks for clearing up the tiers which I hadn't seen before. Interesting is that the tiers have nothing to do with quality but profit and how much is spent on marketing.
I put Hankook tires on my PT which I guess falls into the tier 3 category. However, if there was a "satisfaction tier" they would be in tier 1.
-
Dave,
Ditto Dick's thanks re tiers.
Steve
-
I just put a set of Toyo's on the front of our Marquis in July. After a trip to Yellowstone and about 2600 miles later I can say that I love them. They are an excellent tire at an excellent price. I took off Michelins that were causing the coach to pull to the right. New Toyo's corrected that problem and now the coach goes down the road as straight as a string. I am very pleased! Just my 2 cents.
-
David,
Thanks for sharing the article and the rankings by the author. If they ranked these tires using data by quality and failure rate the results might be quite different, hard for us to know. It is good that beaver owners are sharing their tire history, it helps everyone.
Later Ed
-
David we just replaced our Goodyear G670 with Michelin xza2
295-80r-22.5 through the FMCA advantage program, phone #1-888-532-6435. The price is $663 plus install and balance. We have used this program at Kaiser Brake and Alignment 541-344-5887. The reason we switched to the Michelin tires was the added tred depth and customer reviews. Also note most oem's use the Michelin tires
-
$663 for Michelin is still $120 more than for Toyo at my Les Schwab's, and the Toyo price includes mounting and balancing. That would make the total difference, including mounting and balancing, upwards of $175 per tire.
It's becoming more likely I will go with Toyo tires at my Les Schwab store... especially since every opinion here on the Forum has been positive regarding Toyo tires.
-
HI Dave
I know the Michelin cost $120 more than for Toyo. I would like to add my two cents at times you get comfort knowing that you have done all you can to be safe. I don't like to take any chance with tires and run the Michelin I know I could save but IO learned many years ago youget what you pay for Schwab is not a national chain you can get support for Michelin everywhere.
I am sure the toyo tires are good we have member that use them but we have many member that also run the Michelin rubber.
I am sure3 both would do the job I just like the blanket of the brand.
-
No, Jerry, it's closer to $175 difference per tire, not $120. For a set of five tires that would be about $875 difference.
-
David, thanks for clearing up the tiers which I hadn't seen before. Interesting is that the tiers have nothing to do with quality but profit and how much is spent on marketing.
I put Hankook tires on my PT which I guess falls into the tier 3 category. However, if there was a "satisfaction tier" they would be in tier 1.
Let me jump in on this discussion. I had several sets of Toyos on our 99 Marquis and then on a trip across country about 10 yrs ago, pulled into a tire dealer on the FL panhandle due to weird wear on the Toyos and purchased a set of Kumho (korean) tires which last me much better than any of the Toyos and handled just fine. About 3 years ago now, I was In Las Vegas and could not find the Kumho's so based on Forum endorsement, opted for the Hankook (korean) A112 tires which have performed just as well as the Kumho's and certainly WAY better than the Toyos. Have about 30K miles on this set (170K total miles) and going strong.
No question that Michelin's are fine tires ... have them on my Jeep and Pickup ... and I know that others have had good results with Toyo's ... just not me.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
-
I have done more research. I stopped by the Tire Factory shop, Nelson Tire, in The Dalles, Oregon about 1 1/2 weeks ago. Nelson Tire is an approved Michelin Advantage tire provider in the FMCA program. Matt at Nelson Tire answered all my questions and found ten tires in Portland that fit my needs - Michelin XZE2+ tires. Matt also suggested I use the Tire Factory shop in Pasco, Washington due to mileage from my residence.
Today I called the Pasco Tire Factory shop and was again greeted by Matt; a different Matt but every bit as helpful. Matt found three tires in Reno, NV that he would recommend. Next I called the FMCA and registered my credit card anticipating a 5-tire purchase from Matt in Pasco. Next I went through the FMCA tire/price list on the FMCA website to find the tires I wanted. I found five good choices:
X COACH XZ my cost: $683.70 part# 28798
X COACH HHLZ $670.80 31078
XZE2+ $687.65 69619
XZE2+ $688.00 81993
XZA2NRG $666.50 76807
The two X COACH entries, the top two on my list, have slightly higher load ratings and allow 123 psi maximum cold pressure as compared to the other tires on the list with 120 psi maximum. I asked Matt to find for me five of the X COACH HHLZ tires. He soon called back to inform me he has five of them in his warehouse in Pasco. The problem is their DATE CODE is about 18 months old. Damn, now what? I can accept six months... but 18 months? Should I ask him for a 10% price reduction?
-
Thought you were inclined to the Toyo's, David. If now zeroing in on the Michelins, I reckon I'd ask Matt if he can't find and transfer in newer date coded tires from another Tire Factory warehouse.
-Joel
-
Joel - I was and I did. But since we are not quite ready to make like a snowbird until mid October, I decided to use the time to do more tire research and consideration. One item was Nelson Tire's opinion of Toyos. Matt's opinion is Toyos are a step down from Yokohamas. Plus, now Mr. Sprague put that 5,000 mile U-joint and drive line notice in the Forum.
It's been two years so I was going to take the coach out to Eagle-Freightliner before departing for a lookover and mention these specifics - inspect/adjust brakes, inspect/lubricate wheel bearings, analyze engine and transmission oils, perhaps change some filters - and now I will add greasing the U-joints and drive line. I printed the U-joint and drive line greasing directions provided by Mr. Sprague so Eagle-Freightliner will have them if they don't already.
Another thought/question... I am thinking it's unrealistic to assume we can normally get tires with a date code within a few weeks or even months of purchase. So... does that time from manufacture date to installation date count (much) on the 7-year clock to get tires swapped out? The five tires I am wanting to swap out have date codes that are now just over seven years. Can I make the assumption that these tires were likely installed, say, 6 1/2 years, ago. And therefore, I could reasonably wait until after Winter to swap them out?
-
As I understand it, the clock on RV tires starts at manufacture, because unlike automotive tires that are on the highway all the time squeezing protective chemicals to their surfaces, RV tires sit parked a lot; protective chemicals aren't circulated much without the regular flexing of the rubber compound. Automotive tires wear out, RV tires time out - although I guess different chemistry is used to help compensate, that is the general rule.
I know you already get that, and others here are certainly more versed in tire technology than I am. I'm anxious to not spend the money right now, but our '06 is riding on factory tires - 9 years old, but only 16,300 miles on them. They've spent a lot more time parked, which is why, if we ever can get away from here yet this year, I mean to get new ones, probably at Bob Dickman's in Junction City, before many more miles are put on the rig. Then a chassis checkup and Safe-T-Plus at Henderson's. I'll feel a lot more at ease. The Goodyears have been pretty good tires; they ride and handle good, show very little wear, and pretty much have held their air with rare addition over 9 years. They look almost new, which just makes it more difficult, besides the expense for such few miles gleaned, to change them out. As an aside, last week I finally swapped the original Goodyear Wranglers at 36,000 miles out for Michelins on our '97 F-150; 18 years, mostly parked in the garage.
I don't know that I'd sweat the 7 year clock on your existing codes - that's a general guideline, not written in stone. Some say 6 years, some up to 10, although I don't subscribe to that. If we'd been able to get the coach on the road, I'd have likely sprung for new tires a year ago. I think I'd consider myself, if I were you, in the market for new tires anytime in the next year, and when I come across relatively newly minted ones at an acceptable price I'll jump. If you are more anxious, I'd certainly do a lot more calling around now for more recent date codes instead of waiting and fretting it.
From what others here have indicated, I'm not sure that Matt is correct, either, regarding the Toyos. They seem to be decent tires at a more reasonable price. Maybe Matt doesn't sell Toyos, and has that as a reason to be playing them down? If I recall your numbers correctly, 5 of them would be nearly $900 less than Michelins.
-Joel
-
Today I spoke with Robert Henderson of Henderson's Line-up, and got some new information. Admittedly I haven't yet spoken with Bob Dickman's Les Schwab at Junction City, but I'm a little more informed than before. Henderson's uses state of the art balancing equipment and orders tire's as needed out of a Roseburg warehouse. Regardless of where they come from, I'll be making a stink about getting recently made tires. They'll be putting a Safe-T-Plus stabilizer on at Henderson's, probably dong the oil and fuel filter maintenance I originally had deemed for Peterson's near Coburg, and running their chassis assessment program. Their reputation provides a good deal of confidence in Henderson's, albeit not necessarily in my wallet ;D.
Since the Michelin Advantage program essentially dictates the same price regardless of dealer, I may just have Henderson's do everything. That makes the main choice for me whether to go with the less expensive Toyos at Junction City or the Michelins. Tomorrow I hope to hear more from Henderson's office re. the actual Michelin cost, and explore whether they install Toyos and their opinion. I just put Michelins on my F-150 after 18 years of Wranglers, and of course new tire's feel nicer in all regards. This will likely color my decision, but with other big expenses ahead at BCS in Bend the middle of next month, my tire choices may ultimately come down to out-of-pocket.
Joel
-
I decided to wait until after this Winter to replace my five tires... which by then will be over 7 1/2 years old from their date of manufacture, vis-à-vis, their date code. Using the Michelin Advantage program I can get new Michelins NRGs (energies) for about $670 each plus mounting and balancing of $50 each.
The most significant factor in my decision was not being able to find five Michelins with dates codes less than over a year old already. I was told Michelin stops making coach tires during the Summer to start making winter tires. Then in late winter Michelin will resume making coach tires. At that time there should be Michelin coach tires available again with fairly new date codes. We'll see......
-
Good evening. I also am shopping for tires and have always purchased my tires from Les Schwab primarily because I love the service. I have always purchased Toyo's for my vehicles. I went there last week to seek information on Michelin's verses Toyo's. I talked to Dave at Milwaukie, Oregon shop asking him specifically about the FMCA discount and why Les Schwa does not participate with the discount program? He told me the people at FMCA would not approve them. So why is that? Why can FMCA embrace other tire carriers and not Les Schwab? I would like to know what you all think! :-\
KC Snellgrove
2005 38 foot Beaver Monterey
Olivia Jean
-
You may have been given misinformation, KC, or at least that franchise's interpretation. Bob Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City does participate, and probably has the most motorhome experience of all Les Schwab's.
I was going to go there on the way down to Henderson's in Grants Pass, but discovered Henderson's is a participant too. If I opt for the Michelins over Toyo, I might as well make just one stop - Henderson's. Why? Because the Michelin Advantage price is the same at all participating Michelin dealers.
Joel
-
My understanding is to qualify for the Michelin Advantage program the dealership must daily or regularly deal with all types of vehicles from autos to heavy trucks to motorhomes. Another example, the Tire Factory in The Dalles, OR is approved for the Michelin Advantage program but the Tire Factory in Hermiston, OR is not approved. All three Tire Factory outlets in the Tri-Cities, WA are approved... probably because all three have the same franchise owner. Of course, the tire dealership probably has to apply for approval too.
-
Joel I so look forward to meeting you - you are a fountain of excellent information. I appreciate all of you guys comments and hope to meet each and every one of you. I am also headed to Henderson's, but I did not know they supplied tires. My concern is if I do not purchase tires from Les Schwab and go with Henderson's what about if I have a problem? I would sincerely appreciate knowing whether you purchase Michelin or Toyo's, since it is my understanding they will need to be replaced within 5 years regardless due to less natural rubber and more synthetic used in production. By the way where is there a good scale to weight motorhomes. I live just off of Theissen.
KC Snellgrove
2005 Beaver Monterey 38 foot Olivia - Jean
-
A lot of State scales are commonly available, KC, especially those not on freeways but rather on State highways. With the old Pace Arrow, I used to regularly stop at any I happened to pass while on trips, but since getting the Beaver, I stopped doing that; our particular model has so much more carrying capacity than most, I doubt I could ever overload it. The only reason I'd stop at a scales might be because I was curious about the weight of a particular corner or side due to some change in my normal loading pattern. When we had the RVSEF weigh us in 2007, loaded to the ceilings, I recall we still had 3400lbs. to go, if we could find that much storage volume somewhere - short coach on heavy chassis is likely why.
I might suggest the State scales just below me on Highway 212/224 between Clackamas and Carver junction, just east of 142nd Ave., on the north side of the road. I rarely see any trucks using it, and only about half the time is there an ODOT officer manning it. Just drive in from the east entry from the left turn lane (if coming from Thiessen across I-205). I've yet to pass an empty Oregon scales facility where the scales weren't left on for anyone to use; the digital screen is on a pole in front of you and easily seen. If there's a truck already there, just be patient and wait your turn. Then there's no hurry unless a truck comes in behind you, but I've never had that happen at the 212 location... it's always been empty. If it happens to be manned when you arrive, they likely will be happy to assist you.
If you have occasion to go over Mt. Hood, there is a scale near Brightwood as I recall. You could also check the State ODOT website - they probably list scale locations.
5 years timeout on the tires is a bit extreme. The standard seems to vary depending on who you talk to. A local mechanic the other day suggested that as long as there is no cracking, alligatoring, or other noticed flaws, he'd not buy new, especially with minimal miles (16,000 on mine) and very little solar exposure. He does a lot of business with the Clackamas Les Schwab's, and they are a good outlet that I've also purchased from for several decades. I've had more than one Les Schwab dealership, including Clackamas, run a routine inspection and tell me the same thing as the local mechanic. But most here follow a 6-7 year guideline I think, and my Goodyears are at 9. Most of that was parked here by the house, esp. the last few years; lack of travel and intra-tire chemical stimulation is a good reason in itself to get new ones.
As Dave discovered, the Toyos are significantly cheaper even than the Michelin Advantage deal. If you buy at Henderson's, that doesn't mean you can't get service from any other dealer of that brand anywhere in the country. Les Schwab has done free leak/plug repairs several times on tires I didn't buy from them, and I send my daughters and grandkids there for tire repairs. They've also fixed non-automotive tires for me at no charge. That's one reason they built such a good reputation and successful business when Les was running the show. If you are still concerned, I'd seriously lean toward the less costly Toyos from either your Milwaukie store or Bob Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City.
I'm still up in the air on which brand and dealer, but will have to decide before too long. Henderson's would have to order Michelins out of a Roseburg warehouse, and I'll want them to check the date codes at the warehouse first. Bob Dickman is a busy motor home tire facility, that likely has their own stock, and moves enough tires that perhaps they normally have newer codes; I haven't talked to them yet. Still trying to juggle our personal schedule. Henderson's has state-of-the-art balancing equipment, which after having Goodyear Portland use theirs to discover anomalies in our Monaco factory wheel weight installation that caused a slight vibration, is important to me. I'd think Bob Dickman's would have modern digital balancers also, due to their sales volume for large tires, but I don't know for sure as yet.
-Joel
-
Update:
6 Toyos from Bob Dickman Les Schwab (295 80R 22.5) are $3301.80 all inclusive. They couldn't give me a Michelin Advantage price because, as we've found out before, its a universal price set by Michelin to whom you pay directly - the dealers are only charging for their services and fees. They did give me a ball park of ~$4500, and mentioned they are around $1000 more than Toyos.
In discussing date codes, they said owners have become overly concerned about the issue, that it is somewhat of a myth that the mfr. date code is so absolutely critical, and that the more important date is when the tires are actually put in service. It can take months after manufacturing for a tire to be shipped, and longer stored in a warehouse, and perhaps then at a dealership. The fellow I talked to at Dickman's said that pretty much industry-wide is a first-in, first-out rule; so the oldest received tires are picked first out of a dealership or a warehouse upon ordering. This all indicates to me that it may be a fruitless effort to call all over the place trying to locate youthful tires.
Upon contacting Henderson's again to see if they sell Toyos, I was told no, because in their experience Toyos don't wear as well as Michelin's. That said, in our case we don't put a lot of miles down, so wear may not be that much of a factor.
Any further commentary from you guys will be welcome.
-Joel
-
Well Joel, I have had Toyo's on my Contessa for almost 4 years. I keep them covered when parked always. I put only about 3500 miles a year on the coach as I only part time right now....Still look as new as the day they were put on in January of 2011.
-
David,
I wanted to add a little info on the sales tax issue with the FMCA Michelin Advantage program. I know you live in Oregon and expect to pay no sales tax because of your residency. But the FMCA Michelin program does not work like that. They charge sales tax based on the rate in effect at the servicing dealership, not residency. In my case this worked to my advantage because my dealer was in Oregon which has no sales tax so I was not charged any by FMCA. That was the main reason I went to an Oregon dealer rather than my local dealer in Pasco. Even though the tire price would be the same, I would have been charged Washington sales tax by FMCA.
I know you have decided to wait, but you should consider the sales tax issue when you buy. It is not a trivial figure on this large of a purchase. You might talk them into an exemption for you based on residency, but don't count on it.
Larry
-
Well, as it turns out, Henderson's supplier in Roseburg only had 2 XAZA2 NRG Michelin's in stock, and when they called around they found no source aside from South Carolina, which they didn't consider a viable option for me considering the shipping cost. They suggested I call Bob Dickman/Les Schwab again and see if they had 4 or more; Schwab's warehouse did, and they'll have 6 in Junction City for me next week.
Dickman/Schwab's still were pushing the $1000+ cheaper Toyo option at that point. When I again pressed Henderson's for their opinion of Toyo, they still vehemently held to the notion that they wear relatively quickly, at least the ones they've seen in their business, and one of their fellows was actually quite upset that I might get Toyos. They made the point that Schwab moves a lot of Toyos like it was their brand, likely a profit leader for the company. Keep in mind that Henderson's has nothing to gain with those opinions, since they had no Michelins to sell to me except the 2, and encouraged me to get all 6 in one trip at Schwab's. Schwab's noted that the latest built Michelins were from early 2014, no way around that, and the Toyos are from earlier this year, but both they and Henderson's indicate that has far less meaning than the date put in service. Schwab's mentioned at one point that the Toyos had undergone a recent redesign and reformulation, which hints to me that they were aware of past wear issues theoretically now resolved. Henderson's hadn't heard of any Toyo redesign, but didn't discount the possibility.
I don't recall which of the two dealers told me that Michelin had overproduced these tires in 2014, and backed off this year's production accordingly, thus a shortage overall this fall; as Dave I think had mentioned here, they produce so many of one type tire, then switch molds to accomodate seasonal demand, etc., and may not go back to the other for many months even if the stock overall runs low or out. Now, that said, one would think with an industry-wide warehousing policy of first-in/first-out, that the remaining stock would have 2015 codes, not 2014. Go figger.
Henderson's mentioned there is a new Michelin factory in Canada, to more fully service North America, but they aren't yet fully operational. Perhaps Dave will benefit from that by waiting, but my Goodyears will reach 10 years by then. Speaking of which, Henderson's mentioned that though the Toyos they are familiar with (likely not the new design) have a stiffer-riding rubber formulation, that even they would ride better than my Goodyears from 2006 - although my old ones show little wear or deterioration, I'd notice the difference regardless of which I go with, Toyo or Michelin.
-Joel
-
You want more info. Look here: http://www.michelintruck.com/tires-and-retreads/selector/#!/info/xza2-energy
-
I might throw this one out to Ed and Gerald who've, among others, commented in previous threads rather positively about Toyos. It would appear the M144 is an improvement wear-wise over its predecessor, a "truck" tire which, much to Toyo's chagrin, I take it was often overloaded by coach manufacturers, resulting in wear and failures. Posts here and elsewhere allude to Toyo pulling support for the prior model in Motorhome use. So I'm not sure the wear concern that Henderson's and others report is assignable to the M144 and its recent design more specifically aimed at the RV market.
My question is regarding the somewhat stiffer ride you've noted on the Toyos, even Ed's M144's. The tire weighs more and the sidewall flexes less than the XZA2 Energy, thus the firmer sensation I take it. If the Michelin sidewall bulges more, do you believe that translates into the coach sitting a bit lower... even if it's only a half an inch? I ask because our particular model scrapes the back end occasionally, often even when I hit the air raise switch to compensate. I put a Roadmaster roller on the hitch years ago, but still drag sidewalks, and my own driveway entry despite angled crossing, etc. - kinda tired of terrorizing my mudflap and my concrete. Every half inch counts. I don't need to get new tire's that may actually drop me lower than the current G670's do.
I had leaned to the XZA2's because one of my goals for some time has been to maximize the ride, which has approached but never quite reached the "floating down the road" impression I'd always associated with such coaches as we drive. It's the main reason we're going to Henderson's.
There are so many good reports here and elsewhere re. the M144's, the build dates are so ridiculously more recent... and think how many rallies we could afford to go to or camp fees paid with $1000-$1200 in savings... that I may yet go with them. The consideration that they could ride a smidge higher than the Michelins may just overcome my endeavor toward the ultimate "Cadillac" ride. And Henderson's may discover another reason I haven't achieved it yet anyway.
Joel
-
Ed, yes I am also very tired of damaging my mud flap to the point it is now mangled. I am considering Toyos because they are fresher then Michelins tires you can get. Also it only takes about 5 days for Toys to be ordered and received. My question is will you purchase tires from Henderson’s? If no where? When I talked to Henderson they told me to put the tires on prior to coming to them for their assessment of my coach. I am looking forward to your comments ED, since this is the first diesel RV that I have owned.
Thank you, KC Snellgrove
2005 Monterey Olivia Jean
-
Hi KC. Just spoke again with Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City. They said that the Toyos they've been getting have just started showing 2015 codes, so they're a bit older than I'd originally thought. But January/Feb. 2015 Japanese Toyos is better than German Michelins from 18 months ago. They still downplay the importance of the date codes, and wouldn't be overly concerned until the tires were 2 years old. Seems to me the Michelins are approaching that closely enough. Dickman's keeps their Toyo stock up so they're pretty much on hand when needed. They ordered in Michelins for me last week, but still encourage the Toyo M144. Your Milwaukie dealer probably doesn't move that many M144's to keep them in stock like Dickman's.
Like David R., it's tempting to wait until Spring after winter production schedules have upped more recent stock levels; but we want to do a little off-season traveling, and though they are in good shape externally, Monty Rae's tires are well over 9 years old. They may not be so pretty on the inside.
When I asked Dickman's about ride height, he indicated the Toyo's may ride a little higher due to the stiffer sidewall, but he couldn't say how much higher - even a half inch may be a bit much to expect. I doubt anyone's ever broached the question before such that comparison measurements were worth the effort to take; easy enough to understand that. I might measure my hub center to ground before and after, whichever make of tire I get, so I know the difference from the Goodyears at least.
Like you, I'm hoping Ed and/or Gerald replies here before we boogie off on our endeavor. Like most here, I value their input. If you search "Toyos" here on the forum, you'll find good discussions from earlier this year.
-Joel
-
As a guy with little experience with these big diesels I've got to chime in that my Coach rides like a dream with Hankook AH 12s. Never driven any other so my opinion is worth what you paid for it! Hankook 275 X 70 X 22.5 are about 310.00 on line before shipping (about 30 per tire.)
Jerry
-
Thanks Jerry. That as it turns out is less than half the cost of Michelins.
I finally got a number from the FMCA program, and the difference between the XZA2 Energy and the Toyo M144 for 6 tires is not around $1000... it's over $1400. The Toyos just keep looking better. If I weren't so deep into those two brands already and up against my deadline, I'd give Hankooks more of my time.
Joel
-
To those looking for some Toyo M144 comments.... I put over 6000 miles on a new set this summer and they gave a slightly stiffer ride then the Michelin XZA2 Energy tires I had in the same size. I had put over 30k miles on the Michelins. The Toyo stiffer sidewall difference translates into a little more secure control feeling steering. This all goes hand in hand, the more compliant the sidewall of Michelins flexes more so it is less precise in its tracking feel at the wheel. These are not huge differences between the two tires regarding ride vs control but they are there to notice when you switch between the two brands. They are both excellent choices.
My Toyos were manufactured in Japan and the Michelins that I had were made in Germany at the time and I consider both of those to be good quality sources in general for manufacturing. I felt safe traveling on the Toyos and just did not worry about them this summer.
I did not measure the hub to ground distance between the two tires but I would guess based on the sidewall bulge of the Michelins vs the more upright M144s that some ride height was gained. I do not have the dimensional info at hand of the two tires but if they are the same diameter before mounting then the Toyos should be taller when inflated. You would have to compare the dimensions of the tires you are replacing vs the Toyos to see what to expect.
There is some comfort in knowing that one of the design applications for the M144s is for urban bus travel and the sidewall is very durably made for the expected sidewall curb scrubbing issue. Any fail I have had in my RV tires so far has been an inner dual sidewall zipper fails (2 of these on my 89 Contessa which were not underinflation related). This is my second set of Toyo RV tires and I have not had any issues or fails with any of them.
If my prime concern was ride softness, I would pay for the Michelins, if it is price and or the need for a more precise feel at the wheel then I would have no reservations buying the Toyos. Regarding dates, do not accept tires that are older, maybe 8 months old would be the max in my mind. The rubber ages whether it is on your vehicle or not and 7 years max from the tire date you should consider the limit. It takes some time to import from Germany and Japan and get through the warehouse system. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
Ok here is the load down as I know it regarding RV tires. I have decided to go to Henderson’s Line Up shop for the tires, alignment and anything else my “Olivia Jean” rig needs perhaps Saft T-Plus?
Les Schwab: FMCA DISCOUNTED PRICE
Michelin 295/80R-22.5/16 ENERGY XZA2 $ 872.24 $ 666.50 cost savings $205.74 EACH
Toyo’s 295/80r-22.5/16m-1444 $ 475.13
**Add: Plus wheel spine balance $30.00, metal vale stem rebuild $ 4.25.
-
We're at Henderson's currently, KC.
Given the totality of the input here on the Forum, the fact that the Toyos seem to sit a tad higher giving us at least a little more clearance (especially evident that it's needed after pulling out of our driveway Tuesday and leaving a new groove in it 😤 ), they turned out to be a mix of date codes some as recent as August, they are a new version meant for motorhome's and not trucks, and were nearly $1500 cheaper than Michelins (at least 18+ months old), I ultimately chose Toyos. Henderson's don't sell those and didn't like their wear history, but admitted their experience wasn't with the more recent M144 Toyos like we got, but rather the older truck Toyo model.
I did register for the Michelin Advantage program before we left, because until we got to Bob Dickman's Les Schwab in Junction City, I still wasn't sure which brand I'd go with. Les Scwab did haul in some Michelins just in case, but they weren't needed. Henderson's tried but couldn't find the Michelins without shipping in from the East Coast, and they didn't think I wanted that cost. Schwab already had some in their warehouse or somewhere. I can say the Toyos ride about the same as the Goodyears, maybe a smidge stiffer, and handle a bit better, as Ed has mentioned here. I can see they bulge less at the bottom. The Toyos were $3324, but that's with newer style valve extender kits.
While parked afterward overnight in Schwab's lot, a gully washer pooled water on the roof and it found its way in via the solar cable hole. We came home at night to a lake on the galley floor, adjacent rugs, dinette, and rain out of the lights and AC ceiling ports mid-coach. Hard to see and work to find the darned leak source on the roof in the dark and rain, but I temporarily plugged what I could see with 30 year old Permatex stuff I had in the old Pace arrow. Thought I had Lexel but didn't, so the next day I found Lexel at True Value a couple blocks away and properly plugged the friggin hole, that when I could see it in daylight was the diameter of a pencil hidden by the wires. Can't figure how a relatively new coach has a roof low spot up front between the front AC and curbside. But the "lake" used the solar wire port as a tub drain! Gad, what a mess. Took 4 hours to sop up and remove light and AC ceiling fittings to try getting ceiling panels dry... an ongoing effort yet.
We are spending arm and leg here for testing, weighing, and upgrading the chassis for a more pleasurable and less stressful ride and improved handling, engine service (specified CAT filters thanx Dave A.), chassis lube, Koni shocks, motion control units for the airbags, K&N air filter (I know, that's a controversial move, but they don't use the oil bath technique they used to and stock filter isn't a cartridge type and is hard to come by apparently), new surpentine belt, Safe-T-Plus stabilizer, and steering adjustment to compensate for a little wear. The air system was leaking pretty good after leaving home, and wasn't lifting the rear adequately to ride height every time nor was the back responding to the Raise function, so they are still trying to track that down, but seem to think its associated with the brake side. The secondary tank (orange needle) dropped a good piece in only a couple hours, with the green close behind.
Noted our toad's front tire's wearing inside and scrubbing noises bad since towing this trip; they are checking its alignment here later today so we'll have it and can drive it around sightseeing this weekend while coach is here, and not ruin tire's more... 'nother couple hundred $. One darned thing after nuther, ain't it?
Even this time of year Henderson's is busy. One thing I didn't anticipate: their service manager is a man of all trades, thus there is an incessant flow of technicians and office help streaming in and out the area behind his desk, not to mention customers, and his phone gets little rest. This results in kind of a haphazard interaction where you try to discuss your issues and service history, etc., constantly interrupted. He's good at what he does or he wouldn't be there, but they almost need two of him. It can get a little frustrating trying to explain something to the point you believe he fully understands. Fortunately we got who arguably seems to be one of their best technicians, Eric, and on our test drive and afterward it was easy to exchange information with him.
I must say though, this family operated business is pretty thorough and efficient. We've enjoyed talking at leisure with Robert and Barbara Henderson in their nice customer lounge, and listened to one side as they threw a birthday party lunch for an employee, and a weekly company meeting, a great insight into the nature of this enterprise, it's history, inspiration and longevity, and why it's successful. We were kindly invited to participate in the provided lunch and cake.
You don't get something for nothing, KC, but at least it's definitely a pretty good something here.
-Joel
-
Well, been here nearly a week, and Henderson's got a lot done until running into the air leak problem Friday. Red needle still goes to 0 overnight, with the green settling in around 50 psi., otherwise we'd have been to Diamond/ Crater Lake by now. They've repaired several likely culprits, but red tank ain't holding, and they don't think the back end is airing up quite as well as it should.
If they haven't isolated the problem today, we will be on our way and let the techs at BCS see what they can find next week in Bend.
Gotta love air leaks 😂 .
Joel
-
WOW! What a lot of information on RV tires! I was just just checking my tires the other day and covering them and discovered this on the front right tire, in two different places.
These are BF Goodrich and the date code I found was 2310, I think they are all about the same age so they would be about 5 years old. This is the only tire that shows anything like this. I probably already know the answer to this but I don't know how serious this is, I'm assuming this tire should be replaced? and given the age, should they all be replaced at the same time?
Anticipating that, I got a quote from a Les Schwab here in Renton for $3491 for 6 of the Toyo M-144, mounted and balanced. I have a friend from Spokane that got these tires on his Tiffin and loves them so I'm thinking about the Toyos as well.
-
I had Goodyear's on my 2001 Contessa when I bought it 4 years ago but they were 10 years old. So the first stop was a tire shop. Toyo's were suggested over Michelins by them for a better ride.
They have been very good tires for the ride and I have no complaints at all. No wear that is noticeable to my eyes anyway.
-
I know this topic is controversial, but after some research, here's my take.
Both Bob Dickman's Les Schwab and Henderson's, as well as the Les Schwab in Grant's Pass, told me essentially the same thing; most of the worrying by motorhome owners over tire manufacture dates is unwarranted. One even referred to the concern as a myth. What we should be more serious about is the "date put in service". Up until then the tire's are unpressurized, laying flat or on racks at the mfr., ship container and truck trailer, warehouse, and dealer, unexposed to weather or sunlight, and unstressed by vehicle axle loading. To most, they wouldn't bat an eye at a warehoused tire up to two years old. And I have to say I have respect for the managers that gave me that opinion; they were experienced and convincing.
Two of the Toyos I just got are a year old and four are from this August. I was at first concerned about the difference but not now. And rather than run out for new tires at 6 years from date code, I'll heed the notion of annual dealer inspections starting the 5th year after installation (NOT 5 years after mfr.), and start thinking replacement in the 9th year, assuming wear isn't an issue before then. That's not to say I won't regularly inspect the tires as always myself of course, or have a pro look at them before the 5th year if I have a particular reason to.
I just think that automatically putting money into new tires at the 5th year after a mfr. date or installation, regardless of condition, is unfounded; and that 5 year auto-replace thing is a notion I've heard put forth more than once of late. Below find a couple of links for reference.
http://www.michelintruck.com/assets/pdf/bulletins/TB_Service_Life_RV_Tires.pdf
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/article/312312/final-words-on-tire-aging
Dean, that looks like curb or road hazard damage. I'd check the warranty on your Goodrich's and have one of their dealers inspect all your tires. Given that outcome, then consider a trip to Les Schwab for further opinion.
Joel
-
Dean,
I think you need to see a tire expert in a reputable truck tire shop.
From the photos it looks like the sidewall material is failing and coming apart. It does not look like sidewall scrub damage to me, but anything is possible. I would be very concerned given the steel cables rely on the sidewall to maintain a barrier for moisture and to encase them. If you had a catastrophic front tire fail, it is life threatening due to the likelihood of loss of control. If those were front tires I would not drive very fast or far before having them pulled and fully checked.
No matter what anyone tells you about these tires it is an opinion, even at a tire dealer. I personally do not think it is worth the worry and risk while driving to not just have them replaced.
Later Ed
-
Regarding the Toyo and Hankook tires.
When I bought our 2000 PT it still had the original Toyo tires that were 10 yo and replaced them with Hankook tires that served us well until we bought the Marquis. I liked them a lot but it did take a couple of thousand mile before the were perfect. For some reason there was a bit of tire squirm at first that eventually went away. No idea why.
Our Marquis came with 12RX22.5 Toyo that are now 5 yo. The stiffer sidewalls do make the ride a bit rougher on bad roads but not something that I find objectionable....just noticeable. I believe that the stiffer sidewall construction is more robust and give better protection against road hazards. When time comes to replace the tires I will look to Toyo again but the 12R tires are not the most popular and harder to find. The so called replacement is a 295R80 but is a bit shorter and have a slightly lower load rating neither of which is desirable.
My plan is to replace the front tires in the next year or so than buy a pair each year for the front and move the year old front to the drive axle and tag.
-
I perhaps need to clarify a bit; I entirely agree with Ed here, Dean, though all we can offer is opinion based on photos and not personal inspection. Whatever the cause, if the apparent sidewall damage is as severe as it appears in your pix, I certainly would be replacing the tire right away, and probably both front tires to preserve a wear and age balance up front. At 5 years though, that is your call to replace both or not. I sure wouldn't be using a freeway to get to a dealer - maybe even see if he can come to you.
Regardless, a Goodrich rep. should be consulted in case the nature of things provides any warranty benefit in the process. And take advantage of the opportunity to have the other tires inspected, if not strictly for the advisable timeline noted in the links from my previous post, but also in case the damage is from a road hazard that impacted the rears in a hidden manner.
Joel
-
@Joel: did you get your air leak resolved, either at Henderson's or BCS? Our red tank is also emptying much faster than it should. Had it into Bend RV repair and he found a few leaks, but not the major culprit. Thinking about taking it into BCS, and wondering how many hours it took them to find your problem. At their labor rate, I know it's going to cost me a few $$ to track down and repair the leak.
-
Bill-
Henderson's found a cracked fitting, but fixing that didn't do the trick. BCS found a bad air horn connection, but the red needle still tanks overnight. Don't know where this leak is, but it's not making itself obvious and is costing some in the labor dept.
I have noticed that the back of the coach doesn't seem to go down when air leveling, or when I dump air; hard to ascertain as I can't hold the dump button and watch the back end, and potential helpers so far are always busy. On leveling, the front is inevitably low on sites I've been to so far, and it airs up in lieu of the back dumping. When I deliberately (manually as opposed to auto-level) try dumping the rear, I get a repeated psst, psst, psst, psst rather than the usual steady air release. No one that's heard it so far has explained it, which is a bit discouraging since the sound I'd expect to be revealing to someone in the know. Hate to think I have to travel back to HWH to resolve it. At least it levels and seems to stay there for awhile.
Whether this has anything to do with the air loss from the secondary tank, I have no clue.
Joel
-
Soooooo... here's the deal.
I have access to new Goodyear 505D Fuel Max tires. They are 295/75R22.5 and they are a really good price. They are a long haul commercial truck tire.
Here are the specifications as best I can determine:
Load Range G - I think that means 14 ply
110 psi max cold
Rim 8.25 inch
Max speed - 75 mph
Single max load - 6,175 lbs at 110 psi
Duel max load - 5,675 lbs at 110 psi
I have 315/80R22.5 Dunlops on the front. If I bought these Goodyear tires, then I would need six. I have 295/80R22.5 Michelins on the duels and tags, and one of them was replaced two years ago. I had been thinking I would get five new Michelins or Toyos or whatever - all 295/80R22.5. I could not run five Goodyear 295/75R22.5 tires with one Michelin 295/80R22.5 on one of the tags? I am thinking not!
The difference in price between getting five Michelin Advantage (FMCA) and six of these Goodyears is about $1,500. But I am afraid the Load Range G / 14 ply rated Goodyears are not heavy enough, meaning weight bearing capacity, for my coach.
What y'all think?
-
David,
If the weights of your coach are similar to the 00 Marquis we had, it is too heavy for the Goodyears. My front corner weights were ~6200 and ~6400 lbs on that coach.
Steve
-
I thought my post was clear in that I have 315/80R22.5 Dunlops on the steering axle. What I need to replace is five of the six tires on the duel and tag axles.
-
Sorry about that. In any case, unless you post the weights on the corners of your coach, we're all guessing.
Steve
-
I just replaced my Toyo tires with Double Coin tires. I had never heard of them but truckers use them and they have a very good reputation among truckers. Another very tire is Hankook tires.