BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Steve Huber Co-Admin on January 11, 2014, 09:37:39 PM
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A number of folks have asked about making adjustments or alignments to their slides. I recently made a height adjustment on my bedroom slide so thought I'd take a few pictures to help explain what I did. I used the same method to adjust the front slide on our 01 Contessa. My experience has been that the rear of the slide drops or sags. This is normally due to the weight of the closed slide causing the outboard roller to indent the floor. The floor is normally panels of luan or OSB sandwiching a styro-foam type material. In any case, the fix is to give the roller something to ride on that won't give. Looking at the first pic, you'll see that I was dealing with about a 1/4"+ sag. First step is to lift the slide enough to give you access. I use a High Lift (farm) jack as shown. (For the front slide, I had to use 2 jacks). Lift the slide just enough to be able to slide the new plate in place. Then locate the roller and measure the distance from the inside of the outer slide wall to just inboard of the roller. The bedroom measured 19". (Finding the roller was a bit of a challenge as they are inside the nightstands and covered by the carpet). If you are dong the front slide, BE SURE to measure to the inboard side of the inside roller as there are 2 holding the rear of the main slide. I selected a 36" x 3" piece of steel, 3/16" thick, cut it in half and "glued" the 2 pieces together with Lexel, yielding a 3/8" lift. 18" works because the roller does not contact the very inside of the slide outer wall. If you take this approach, be sure of your measurements as the last thing you want is for the roller to come off the new metal pieces. Drill 3-4 countersunk holes in the metal plate to keep it in place. Align the plate and mark the holes on the slide floor. If you locate the holes near the outer edges of the slide, you'll be able to drill into the Al frame. Apply Lexel to the plate where it contacts the slide floor and screw the plate in place. That's it if you've measured correctly. If you have ?s, post here or email me.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I have this issue also. As you looked at options did you see any way to get to the roller and modify the height by spacing it upward with plates underneath. I think it is buried too deep to get to but thought that you might have had some ideas having just been there. I do not love the steel idea from a cosmetic and rust point of view. How are you going to deal with finishing the new metal?
My thought is if spacing has to be done that I would probably do it with Corion or Starboard material in white as long as mechanical fasteners would hit some slideout framing. Lexol would probably have limited adhesion to those materials. What are your thoughts on making a spacer out of these materials. I can router edges with roundover bits and blend it in better, it can be milled for thickness, plus it is white.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Moving the roller upward for the bedroom slide would be ugly as access is very limited. Besides. that approach would not resolve the issue of a weak floor but would only put off the problem for a few more years. Adding a plate to the floor resolves the problem once and for all (unless your roller mounts are sagging). As to rust, coach spends much of its time in AZ so not too concerned. Will paint if rust starts. Didn't develop any on the Contessa, even thought it spend a number of very went months/summers in the SE US. Paint would delay the onset somewhat. I could have used Al but was pricier and didn't like the idea of a steel roller running on an Al plate. Corion may work. Not familiar with Starboard. Just keep in mind the weight involved and that it is supporting a steel roller. If it fails when you are on the road, it could get ugly as the slide may not operate. The plate is under the slide and not visible from the outside so my vote would be steel.
Steve
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Steve,
I was under the impression that the main problem was that the roller that is inside the coach has sagged due to the inadequate structure strength of the material and framework that it is mounted on. I was thinking of plates of sufficient size below the roller spreading the load of the roller mounted to the interior floor. Your plate fix eliminates the gap and maybe that is the best that can be practically achieved here given the access.
I have not checked or felt if I have much of a dent in the roller area of the bottom of my slide but I will get to that in the not too distant future. Starboard is a very dense polymer and I think the slide weight may not be such an issue with that material but I would have to operate, watch and listen, to be comfortable with all this.
One thing that might help us all is some dimensions of your plate, the spacing from the inner edge of the outer slide wall to the end of your plate once mounted, and the locations that you drilled the plate to hit the slide floor framing. That would save a lot of time retracing your steps. Again thanks for all of this, it is a big help.
Later Ed
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Consider POR-15 coating on your steel plates. I've found it to be pretty tough stuff. It likely could take the roller pressure.
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Ed,
You're right re bedroom slide, not very heavy. However, main slide is a monster. I had 2 use 2 jacks on Contessa and still had a heck of a time getting it up far enough. Don't even want to think about the weight of a marquis slide. I'd probably employ a hydraulic jack(s).
Roller is ~5" in width.
Plate is 3" in width.
I tried to center plate on roller (as best as I could by feel).
Plate edge is 2 3/4" from edge of slide.
Plate end is 3/4" from inside of slide outer wall.
Screws on outer end of plate are 2 1/2" from inside of slide outer wall.
One of the screws closest the roller will contact an Al frame if it is 3" from slide edge. Other screw will hit flooring mtl only.
The roller is 2 3/4" -3 1/2" from the inboard side of the slide wall when the slide is in. I mounted the plate so it extended about 1/4"-1/2" inboard of the roller when the slide was out. The outboard edge of the plate extends about 2" beyond the roller when the slide is in.
Since plate is effectively held in place by weight of slide, Lexel and screws are to keep it from shifting.
Steve
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Ed,
Regarding use of Starboard or Corian for the purpose you mention I would caution you that these might not be suitable materials. Corian will likely crack or crush under sustained weight and vibration. Starboard, while a long lived product in certain applications, is fundamentally soft and will flow under pressure when the pressure is applied as a point load from one side only.
You may find that Delrin is a better plastic to use in this type of load. I have used it in a number of loaded marine applications and it beats hell out of Starboard. It is available in sheet form. If you are near a good boatyard they may have some stock left over from another job.
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Marty and Steve,
Marty, thanks for the insight, I will look for some and check the properties.
Steve, thanks for the dimensions.
Later Ed
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"On A Roll Again"....
My rear slide had dropped enough that I was concerned that it would start to hit the outer frame on the bottom right when closing. It was also quite apparent that the slide was skewed top to bottom in the frame due to the right side dropping. My paint lines were even on the left and 1/4 inch off on the right side. My roller was a full 1/4 inch below the slide bottom in the full out position and at no point did the slide hit the roller at all in its travel. There was no support at all on the right side as viewed from the outside.
After some deliberation I also concluded that getting the roller repositioned with a spacer is not possible. The roller is held with four fasteners and the outboard side fasteners are under the slide in the full out position with no real clearance to get to those fasteners. Steve highlighted this problem along with his fix and this is another spin on his approach of applying a spacer on the bottom of the slide.
I took Marty's advice and used Delrin for the plastic material. The advantages of Delrin over steel is that it is worked fairly easily so you can shape it as you desire, it is very slick and smooth, it is white and will not rust, and although it is very strong it can also be flexed some if need be. More on that later...
The Delrin (acetal sheet) was a little hard to find locally but I found a 5 inch by 3/8ths thick by 4ft left over piece for $25. I drilled a series of minute holes in a row on the slide bottom where my Delrin would be mounted to sort out the framing location in the slide. If you have to do this job you can use my hole pattern but check with a small drill and see if your framing seems to be the same. I was able to hit substantial material and frame in 5 out of 8 holes and three screws ended up going through just the aluminum sheet and 1/4 inch ply but still seated well.
The Delrin piece for this job was 19" long by 5" wide by 3/8" thick. I slightly rounded the outer end,then 45 degree angled the sides on my table saw so it would mate better with the seals. (the seal will not conform to 90 degrees and tapers to an angle less than 45 degrees). I softened all the sharp edges with 120 grit followed by a quick sand of all edges and exposed surfaces using 220 grit. It was all very smooth and slick and should be very easy on the seals. I hit what would be the underside of the spacer with 80 grit just briefly to give the Lexel a little mechanical surface to mate with. The flat Delrin sheet surface that mates to the roller ends up 4 1/4" wide and the roller face is 4" wide so they mate well.
The screw hole pattern that works is inset 7/8" from the outer edge on both sides for all screw holes. My first hole is 3/4" from the outer end, the second is 5 3/16ths, third is 9 5/8ths, 4th is 14". You will end up with two rows of 4 screws each. The last 5 inches of sheet will be recessed in the opening and no mechanical fastenings are possible. I used ceramic coated hex head fasteners that I like and recessed the screw holes 1/8th with a 1/2" Forstner bit and then drilled fully for the screws. Stainless may be your fastener of choice with a countersink which is fine. The making of this Delrin part is about a 2 hour job but would be faster with all the dimensions provided. There should be enough information here to have one fabricated if you do not have the tools.
I then used a two ton car floor jack and a 4x4 T arrangement to lift the slide, dry fit the sheet and drill the holes. The slide lifts quite easily with a floor jack.
For this size Delrin sheet you would make a parallel line 2 1/4 inch from the edge of the slide and align the edge of the Delrin to your line. Fasten the sheet with the screws and lower the jack. I worked the slide in and out and checked the paint lines and they were within 1/16" and the spacing of the slide all the way around in the opening now looked as it should be.
I jacked the slide up a bit and removed the sheet. I used some small beads of Lexel stopping the general application about 6 inches from the outer end of the Delrin. I also applied a little in the screw holes and on the screws. My reasoning for stopping the adhesive for the outer 6 inches of the sheet is to allow the use of composite shingle pieces under the last 5-6" of the Delrin sheet to allow for later adjustment and tuning if you need it. The roller will be at the 2 inch point from the end of the Delrin with the slide in the closed position.
If you need another 1/8th inch of lift later due to settling you can remove the outermost 4 screws and flex the Delrin sheet with a stiff putty knife and put a "ramp of shingles" in place to add lift at the end of the slide travel. The black composite plastic shingles are rated at 16,000lbs breaking strength and will easily handle this job. Having this ability will save a lot of future headaches and allow an ongoing means of adjustments that never existed in the original roller system. Being within a 16th on my paint lines I called it a day without using the composite shingles for now.
I dreaded this job some, but it was quite easy with a nice reward in outcome at the end. Photos below. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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To test the adjustment capability of the Delrin sheet I placed some of the composite shingles under one end of the sheet and clamped it so that I added another 1/8th inch of rise where the roller would be parked with the slide in the closed position. I then clamped it down to my saw top. It conformed to the ramp slope without excessive pressure from the clamp so the screws should work just fine for any future adjustments.
I think this adjustable option will probably come into play given I am not sure where the first 1/4 inch of support structure went. My slide bottom has little to no depression but you can see a roller mark. The roller could have settled some into the floor but there is a block of material under it.
Later Ed
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ED,
thanks for a brilliant fix and wonderful pics. Jeremy
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Thanks Jeremy, hopefully along with Steve's info this will help some other Beaver owners tune their slide alignment up.
I also notice that the seal rubbing noise is much diminished from areas where the clearances were tight due to misalignment. The whole slide mechanism seems to travel out and back in better with much less strain. Amazing what riding on a roller will do...
Later Ed
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Ed,
Nice job, As we thought, 3/8' was the right thickness. I'm also at a loss as to where the "loss" of spacing occurs on the bedroom slide. On the front slide it was obvious that the slide floor had been impinged by the rollers but there was no evidence of this occurring on the bedroom unit.
Steve
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Steve,
3/8ths thick was the right call. It is now sitting very close to the original slide alignment position. It will be interesting to see in our travels if the roller settles more. The 5 inch wide plate worked well because it overlapped the width of a frame member that you could screw down to for its full length. That kept the Delrin plate flat and well aligned. I cannot see how the slide bottom can compress with the Delrin now directly over the square tube slide frame.
My wife did point out that it was my side of the bed that was sinking and not hers....she thinks that is telling me something :-)
Later Ed
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Ed, and all who commented on slide sag problem, I too am having to repair my rear slide. In reading your posts I was wondering if 1/2" thick Delrin would work, as my rear roller has dug into wood bottom of slide. Ed had mentioned a provision for an additional 1/8" lift for a total thickness of 1/2" inch lift. Anybody done this and what were results? Was thinking about filling gouge spot with bondo or some other kind of filler to level out before installing Delrin strip. Also any ill effect on seals with 1/2" thick strip? Also, front roller has indented metal sheet but has not worn thru to wood bottom. Looks like front could use a strip as well. Any help, comments, appreciated!!! Thanks, Frank.
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Frank,
Thickness of the delrin or metal strip (whichever you decide to use) should be determined by the amount of sag you want to correct. I used the paint borders from the fixed wall to the slide to determine thickness needed. Not sure why you would need to fill in depression made by roller in bottom of slide as the delrin will cover it, unless you are concerned about moisture ingression from high humidity environments. I used 2 different thickness strips on my 01 Contessa front slide to get it level (paint borders aligned).
Steve
Steve
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Frank,
Like Steve I think you tailor the thickness to the offset in the paint striping difference. As the Delrin material gets thicker there may be some clearance issues with the slide seal, not sure. I like the Delrin approach and over several years of use I had no issues with it at all.
It appeared to me that as time went on the stripe offset started to increase a small amount again meaning there probably was some continued sag in the roller support structure but not enough to warrant going thicker. The shim shingles would have been my adjustment method at the outer end of the Delrin strip if it became an issue. It only has to "park" the slide height where you want it at the full in slide position. I used a 45 degree slope along the long edge of the Delrin (table saw cut) and then rounded the point where the 45 cut ended using a sander. The more shallow the taper the better the slide seal will conform and follow the Delrin edge. If my saw could have made a shallower cut I would have gone to 30 degrees or so. Delrin is a perfect material for this given it can be milled, won't rust, very smooth and easy on the seals as it travels against them.
To sort this out you could get a base measurement and then gently jack up the slide, measure to a reference point like the trim molding below, and see if raising it a half inch still provides the necessary clearances and the seals have reasonable contact. If not go to 3/8ths inch. Things should fit OK given you are basically going back to what the original fit was. It does not have to be perfect, just the best compromise.
Frank as far as adding bondo, I think I would just use a bed of silicone to fill the gap under the Delrin and then let it cure before putting the weight of the slide on the repair. Because the Delrin is a bit wider then the roller (you could add a bit more width if need be in the Delrin) it should go beyond the depression width wise. (Don't forget to allow for the tapered edge in the Delrin when you come up with the appropriate width of your Delrin sheet repair stock)
As far as the front slide, that is very heavy, I would probably consider a thin metal plate there if it was bad enough to require a repair. In that case I think you are preventing a wear point and not trying to build up thick material for a roller structure sag issue. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Steve, Ed, thanks for reply. I have taken some measurements on both the front and rear roller sag of bedroom slide and decided to try 1/2" thick delrin on the rear, which has sunk approximately 1/2" and 1/4" on the front, as both sides of slide rollers have worn into plywood. I am hoping to get tapered screws into front piece as thickness will not accommodate a standard screw head. Again, thanks for input and will inform about outcome. Frank.
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Frank,
Consider adding a 1/16" to the thickness of the delrin runners. With the 2 coaches I've done, the offset of the paint edges plus 1/16" ensures the paint edges will line up when completed. See the before/after pictures in the first post in this thread. The floor apparently sags somewhat with the weight of the slide.
Steve
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Hello Steve,
Our 2000 Marquis Jasper has a 3/8 sag at the rear of the front slide. We jacked it up and added a 3/8 aluminum plate. When we activated the slide the gear that engages the track became disengaged allowing the slide to rack. We had to remove the plate in order to reengage the alignment gear. We could not figure out how to adjust the pillow block to support the mechanism with the gear properly engaged. Any suggestions?
Richard and Judie Crane
2000 Marquis C 12
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Richard,
The rear of the front slide rests on 2 rollers, one near the outboard edge of the slide and the other inboard near the inboard edge of the cabinets that jut out toward the reefer. If the installed plate isn't long enough to engage both rollers, the slide will rack when bringing it in the first time. (I know from experience / kind of exciting to see it ;D). I had to pull out my first plate and reinstall a longer one that engaged both rolllers. Measure to get the exact length. I added a bit to ensure the front roller would never jump off it. (Memory is foggy but I think it was around 22" or so).
Steve
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Steve,
If I understand correctly you believe the alignment gear disengaged because the short plate allowed the inner part of the slide to descend a bit when it passed the inner roller, thereby tipping the outer edge up. Is that correct?
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Richard,
Yes. Having the plate contact both rollers will level out the slide, inboard to outboard and it should then re-engage (at least mine did).
Steve
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Hello all, have completed delrin runners on front and back rollers of bedroom slide. The rear runner ended up being 3/8" thick, 5" wide, and 19.5" long. The front runner ended up being 3/16" thick, 5.75" wide, and 19.5" long. Screw holes were drilled with Ed's measurements. The extra width on the front runner was required as to hit the aluminum framing with the screws on edge of slide. Paint lines on front runner now match perfectly, rear runner is about 1/16" high, to accommodate future sag, which was suggested by Ed in previous posts. Also as Ed suggested, cut long edges of runners at a 30 degree angle to accommodate seal over runners. All in all, project turned out very well and am very happy with results. Thanks to all who helped with project!!! Frank.
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So, question.......Where do I install this shim??? i can't seem to find out where it says to install it! I have the same slide out sag issue!,
Ah, I found it, i was on the wrong page. My issue is on the front curb slide out, same issue but i don't think the rollers are even in there, and i don't think this post pertains to that.
Well its pushed to the front now!