BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Adam Hicklin on April 12, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
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Having not owned this coach since it was new I'm finding that I just don't know what is as it should be and what is a problem. So I turn to the BAC forum expertise. I think I'm having a battery problem.
The coach sat for a week, not being run and not plugged in. Only charging source would be the solar panels. I decided to throw a volt meter on the batteries and this is what I found. Nothing on, at rest, the two 12V chassis batteries read 12.3V The 6, 6V batteries read 6.1V individually and 12.3V for the bank.
I started the coach. Chassis group read 13.3. House group read 13.3 Interestingly, the volt meter on the dash read just over 16V, which it always reads (thats what made me start to investigate potential problem)
Plugged the coach in. Chassis group stayed at 12.3V House group was up at 14.2V
Multiple questions. Shouldn't the charger, while plugged in, be charging the chassis battery also? Shouldn't the alternator be charging at a higher rate? (I ran it at 1000 RPM for about 10 minutes, didn't fluctuate.) Do I just have a bad dash V gauge and is this something to worry about? Anything else I'm not smart enough to ask?
As always, thanks for your help.
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Adam,
The first thing that I can tell you is not to worry about the dash gauge as long as you know were it should run. The analog gauges in your dash are famous for inaccuracy. The common phrase is that they are for entertainment purposes only.
The next thing that you need to know is that there is always a drain on your chassis batteries unless you disconnect the cable or add a disconnect at the batteries. The ECM (engine control module) is always powered, even with the factory installed disconnect switches turned off. The normal current draw of the ECM will kill the chassis batteries in about a week on most coaches without the solar panels (stored inside).
The next thing is that the alternator was probably not able to produce any higher voltage with both of the battery banks discharged as much as they were. Your alternator can only produce 160 amps under perfect conditions. If the alternator will not produce more than 13.4 volts with charged batteries, it either needs the adjustable regulator adjusted or replaced.
The next thing is that the inverter does not charge the chassis batteries. The chassis batteries are charged by the Echo Charger on your coach. If the chassis batteries do not charge up after you are on shore power a few hours while the house batteries are being charged, check the Echo Charger.
Gerald
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That clears some things up. A fully charged battery should be at what voltage? Conceivably, once everything is charged, and the coach is started, the alternator should kick out just over 14 volts, correct? If I understand you correctly, the inverter will charge the house batteries first, then the Echo charger takes over? Not exactly sure how that works. Where does the echo charger get its power from.
Thanks Gerald. I appreciate your expertise.
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Adam,
The alternator on your coach when cold with fully charged batteries should produce 14.2V to 14.5V. The output voltage for your coach alternator will normally drop about 1/2 of a volt below that reading as the alternator heats up.
The Echo Charger uses the house batteries as a power source when they are being charged. You can go to the Xantrex website to download the Echo Charger operators manual.
At 8o degrees with the battery sitting for 6 hours without being charged or discharged, a fully charged 12V battery will have 12.73 volts. You can find a state of charge chart at; http://www.trojanbattery.com/batterymaintenance/testing.aspx
Gerald
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On our 1997 Patriot the chassis batteries did not have any charge source from the shore power or Onan generator. We found out the hard after using the Onan for a forced 11 day dry camp after hurricane Charlie. Beaver's reaction "our bad". We added an Echo Charger at about $90 and the problem was solved. BTY the Onan starts off the chassis batteries and has a draw on them when running .
Some owners use a Battery Minder" if they have a nearby 110 power source in the coach.
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Ok, this is starting to make some sense. Let me ask...if the coachis plugged in to shore power, should the charge function on the inverter be on all the time? I know it has three different level of charge, But does that mean it should always be on while plugged in?
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There is always some sort of parasitic load on the battery banks, and the inverter's charger needs to replace it. Once they are fully charged, float charge maintains them, so it is common to see the charge lamp on when you check it, even after having been plugged in for some time.
Joel
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Ok, this is starting to make some sense. Let me ask...if the coachis plugged in to shore power, should the charge function on the inverter be on all the time? I know it has three different level of charge, But does that mean it should always be on while plugged in?
I think I understand your question, but each coach can be different so I'll explain what I do. For me it is best to think in terms of two functions, although it is all contained in one box.
First, the three stage charging function was set up to match my batteries a couple years ago. Except when driving and occasionally dry camping, the motorhome is plugged in and the charging takes place as the charger function sees fit.
Second, the choice of the inverter function being on or off is off no importance when plugged in. It does not do anything unless the motorhome is unplugged from shore power -- like when driving or dry camping. That said, I leave my inverter turned on so that when I am driving our computers and cell phones can charge and all the lights work. Many see that as unnecessary and only and extra load on the engine alternator.
There is one caution. If you leave the inverter on while driving elect to take a break and run things like the microwave you will be converting battery energy into 120 volt energy. The house batteries will be in a discharged condition and the relatively small engine alternator will have to replace that energy. If the amount is significant the engine alternator will have to work pretty hard for an extended time. It can get hot and have a shorter life! The solution is, when the house batteries have been discharged, run the Onan. It has far greater capacity.
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Thanks Joel and Bill. I guess I was expecting the charge light on the panel to always be on when plugged in, assuming at a minimum the float function would always be on. What I'm hearing is that may or may not be the case. Correct?
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Adam, on my rig when fully charged and plugged in, the Magnum screen says float charge or full charge always, but the chg lamp is usually out. I wouldn't be concerned if it was on or not. It is mainly for when you manually hit the Charge button so you know it is on, but use of the manual button is rare.
Your inverter/charger may not be a late model Magnum, but the principle idea should be the same.
Joel
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4 Solar panels with a good controller and all AGM battery's will make life some muck easier. Plus it will solve wear on your alternator and extend its life. Expensive yes, but well worth it.
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Tying this thread to my genset starting issue, I am looking for assistance as I try to figure out my battery bank.
It appears that I have 2 Lifeline GPL-4D as chassis batteries. These are AGM, deep cycle but have 1100 CCA. I also have 2 of these same batteries as part of my house battery bank. There are 4 Lifeline GPL-4CT 6v as well. I believe the GPL-4D are correct and think the 4CT are correct from the dimensions and from the electrical schematic book.
If I change the house batteries (so I can start the genset and have reliable house power) should I stay with these size of batteries. I have physical room to but bigger batteries (not taller) where the 4 small batteries are located. I see from the Lifeline page, these 6V batteries are better than the GPL-4D in discharge rate.
I don't have a Lifeline distributor near me (closest is 2.5 hrs and I'd have to cross into North Dakota and then pay possible duties/fees when import back).
It is somewhat confusing to me that I have 6 and 12 volt batteries in the same bank, although I understand how it is done. Lifeline does suggest equalizing them if they do not hold charge well but given they are 6+ years old I don't know if that makes much sense to try.
I know from past experience the battery store in Winnipeg is a Trojan fan and will likely try to convince me to use Trojan. Good batteries, although I am now partial to the 0 maintenance aspect of the AGM, albeit more considerably more expensive (last year the Trojans were $165 and equivalent AGM was $335 - I know we are gouged in Canada but that seems quite a difference in price.) I will contact the Lifeline dealer in Grand Forks ND and see what their price is for replacements - may make the drive worth it.
I guess I'm not sure what I am asking, just looking for thoughts and suggestions re. batteries.
Jeff
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvdeepcyclebatteries.php
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I just was reading my solar manual the other day, and not being a fan or owner of AGM's I was newly informed when it said you have to reset the solar controller for AGMs since they aren't ever equalize charged like wet cells. My solar controller apparently automatically equalize charges once a week or so, but only for wet cells; which is why you have to reset it if AGMs are used.
I know there is plenty of controversy here, but I would not put out the extra money for AGMs, mostly because having grown up on and run a farm, maintaining wet cells is not a big deal to me - especially if it saves money, and my units are original to our '06 coach and doing just fine.
The fact that you have such a mixed bag of coach batteries is certainly notable. I'm not sure how you'd set your charge controller for either the solar system or your inverter. Mine need to know which type they are charging, AGM, Gel, or wet cell - but only one. I'd consider reconfiguring your coach ones all alike and the same age.
Joel
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Where would I find my solar charge controller? Also, will usine my equalizing feature one my Prosine inverter only equalize the house batteries or both the house and chassis?
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Adam,
I am not sure where the solar controller is located on your coach, but it is probably either on the rear basement wall or under the bed.
Equalizing the batteries with the inverter on your coach will only equalize the house batteries.
Gerald
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Joel,
The batteries are all the same age and are all AGM; There isn't any marking on the batteries to identify the model - at least not that I can see - so I am guessing the small batteries are 6v based on Lifeline's page of batteries. I have attached pics of the lower bank (4 batteries) upper bank (2 batteries) and the schematics showing (1) the optional arrangement for batteries - mine is not the same as I have 2 up top, (2) the schematic showing wiring from the battery banks. Maybe somebody more clever than I can deduce it.
Gerald stated that my genset starts from the house batteries - so I need to upgrade my house batteries to ensure good starts. I did contact BCS but they thought that the chassis batteries started my genset - I think Gerald's response is the correct one.
I also received a quote from the Lifeline dealer in Grand Forks ND for a sum of $2600 for the 2 large batteries and the 4 small batteries - makes one think about using Trojans! Would have to re-wire the battery bank as the cables won't be long enough.
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apparently stupid iPhone sends pics and while they look ok on my laptop, they load up on BAC site upside down ....
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apparently stupid iPhone sends pics and while they look ok on my laptop, they load up on BAC site upside down ....
Mine do that too. I have to send the picture to my PC, then edit it, then post it. PITA.
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Not being a glass mat user, I have limited info to offer regarding them, except that not having cells means they don't need equalizing. A continuity check from genny switch, relay, or breaker to battery bank cable would verify which group starts the genset, but Gerald's theory's are usually accurate. There are several ways I can think of to affirm which bank connects to the genset, perhaps as simple as turning off one of the master battery switches or disconnecting a cable, and see if the genset still gets juice.
I'd seriously consider whether there isn't a cable format that would allow you to put lead liquid acid units in there and save a lot of cash. Glass mats to me are a heck of a price to pay for saving the "labor" of occasionally adding distilled water, and stats I've seen indicate they don't last longer than well-cared for LLAs. There are other opinions, but that's mine.
Joel
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So upon further inspection and cross checking, none of the RV deep cycle batteries are the same size as the 4 small ones in my coach. Consequently I started to check other batteries on the Lifeline sizing page(s). The ones that closest fit the size I have are GPL-1400T which are an RV starting battery producing 550CCA but limited discharge capability. As I found this info out after hours I sent Lifeline an email - may call tomorrow or Thursday.
In any event if they are starting batteries, I'd be better off with some form of deep-cycle battery. Also it would clarify 12v and 6v confusion I had. If the are starting batteries, then one has to wonder why - Monaco fitting in batteries that fit; using starting batteries as they are to start the genset?
More questions. In any event theyll be changed to more robust units - whether that is AGM or Trojans.
Jeff
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From what I can read of your schematics, and the text isn't all clear, it looks like Monaco intended 4 6v golf cart batteries for your house bank. One image seems to imply 6 cell batteries (12v) but the wiring and hard to read text looks like 6 v.
If you are not the original owner, then someone likely replaced them or the coach was ordered custom that way. I'm unsure why a 2007 coach would be needing a third set of house bats already. From the wiring in your photo, they used 12v AGM last time, and if indeed they are starting bats, then someone really goofed up and spent some money doing it. The smaller cable of the three (two positive, one negative) going to that bank may run the long distance to the generator starter solenoid +bat post. Such a cable is sized to minimize voltage drop over that run.
Consider reverting to 6v deep cycles this time since they have more overall capacity than 12 v deep cycles anyway.
Joel
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Joel,
I'm not the original owner. I should have sent clearer photos of the wiring diagrams; the page states "8 of GC-2 ,6v golf cart Interstate for domestic batteries".
Now stating that, the build sheet that came with the coach identifies with the residential fridge 4 additional AGM batteries as part of the package. The coach was ordered by a Canadian dealer for someone so maybe they did order it that way, seems unlikely or as you say someone screwed up by putting in starting batteries - don't know for sure if they are until I can talk with Lifeline.
Another page in the wiring diagrams discusses std and optional batteries. One option for chassis is the Lifeline 4D which I have. The options for house batteries are:
8 6v interstate
4 12v AGM 4D, or for an all electric
5 12v AGM 8D
So I have a combination either by design or incompetence.
As the 4D is 12v I assume the 4 small are as well, so I should either switch to all 12 v or go to the wiring suggestion of 8 6v.
Once I can pull the coach out of the shed I'll try to start the genset with one of the battery banks off to see if does use the house batteries. If it is the one cable you mentioned for starting the genset, is it possible to move it to the chassis batteries?
Thanks,
Jeff
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I don't want to belabor my issue, however I was contacted by staff at Lifeline and they verified that the small batteries on my coach are in fact the GPL-1400s which are STARTING batteries. :-/
This likely explains (most of) the poor performance and stamina of the house battery system.
From Lifeline, the Capacity 20hr rate is:
1400s have 48AH,
GPL-4D have 210AH,
GPL-4CT 6v have 220AH
my simple calculations suggest that at best I have:
(4x48AH) + (2x210AH) = 612AH
whereas 4 of the 4CT give 880AH or if I put 8 in the coach 1760AH
Interestingly the schematic suggested 8 Interstate GC-2 which have Capacity 20hr rate of 232AH or a total of 1856AH which is much greater than the 612AH that I have!!
So my thoughts, as Joel advised, are to replace these 4 batteries and probably the two big batteries with some other batteries.
So now my questions are, as the existing batteries are all 12v, is it much of a chore to switch to 6v? Can I use the schematic showing the 8 6V batteries? I believe the Magnum inverter can be reprogrammed to run any type of battery.
Anybody else have anything similar in their coach. Mine was built in (I assume) late 2006 as it has a 2006 engine. The coach number is 606318.
Jeff
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Your optimum setup would be eight 6v "golf cart" batteries, Jeff, as you can probably surmise from your own calculations. You can set them up as per your top schematic, although that schematic seems odd because the + and - posts don't seem to be in the same physical position on all the batteries.
Before you do anything, you need to verify that your new batteries will fit the trays. My factory-installed Interstate Workaholics are 10" long, 7" wide, and 11" bottom to post top. The posts on each are on diagonal corners from one another. You will need to be able to twist and remove the cell covers to check and add distilled water several times annually, so you won't want to route any cables over them - allow for that when planning the setup. I need to check the water in mine today anyway, so I will take a photo of my configuration for you. I don't have a second house tray, since I have no residential fridge, but the per tray arrangement could be the same, assuming your trays are both sized okay.
A pair of 6v batteries hooked together with one wire from the positive post of one to the negative post of the other will make essentially one 12v battery, and this is called a serial connection since it is additive (6 + 6 = 12v). Arrange each tray with 4 batteries, each pair of 2 batteries hooked serially as per the schematic.
Now that you have what amounts to two 12 volt batteries per tray, run a wire between the as yet unused negative posts of the four batteries, and a wire between the as yet unused positive posts. This connects the two sets of 12v batteries you created, and is called a parallel connection, which is not additive - it does not double the voltage to 24v, it just increases your amp hours.
The arrangement per tray, to me, is best illustrated by the battery diagram in your bottom schematic photo. The trays will then have to be connected in parallel, as they probably are now. Then you will need to go to the Magnum screen and tell the inverter/charger it is now dealing with lead liquid acid batteries, assuming someone programmed it for AGMs at the previous install. And the solar controller will need to have its dip switches set for LLA batteries also. If you don't have an owners manual for that, one of us will be glad to assist.
I would hope others here would join with some input, so you aren't going by just my 2 cents, and in case I've missed something. Ed? Gerald? Someone with a setup like what Jeff is looking to rig?
Joel
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apparently stupid iPhone sends pics and while they look ok on my laptop, they load up on BAC site upside down ....
I found 2 issues regarding iPhone orientation. The first article said always be sure the home button is down or to the right when taking a picture. However the orientation is correct on mine if I use the "up volume button" as shutter release. This is a known bug and may be addressed in the next update.
Second, some email and photo upload sites ( including forums ) not sure which ones strip the exif data from images when sent or received. Exif data stores device, f-stop and aperture data as well as orientation data. That may be a problem.
My 5 seems okay as I uploaded the same landscape shot to Facebook and Twitter yesterday, but my wife's 4s posted an image sideways. Software is always touchy.
Mike
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Jeff, my configuration is basically the same as your lower schematic.
The row on the left is the chassis set, parallel wired 12 v. The middle row is two serially wired 6v, making essentially one 12v set, as is the right row. Then the middle and right sets are paralleled together.
One note: when it comes time to disconnect cables, either pull the fuse on the solar controller or throw a dark tarp over the solar panel if the coach is outside. The panel can be pumping in juice to the batteries, causing a sizeable spark upon disconnect and connect. The solar system is independent of the battery master switches, and remains active even with them off - at least on mine.
-Joel
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Thanks for th photo. It looks like what was on my 05.
I measured the trays and while height isn't really an issue for the upper tray, I may have 10inches of height in the bottom tray, give or take. So the problem is Trojans or interstate batteries are 10+ inches tall. Have to think about this some more.
One battery dealer in Winnipeg has 200ah AGM batteries that would fit nicely, and although they are more $ than Trojan types but less than lifelines, they may do the job. One caveat is they are made in China! Not surre if I want to go down that path of potential inconsistency/reliability.
Jeff
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I think i made an error on the calculation of power/batteries.
Say the 6v battery has a rating of 220AH but really this is equivalent to a 12v battery having a rating of 110AH.
What this means is if I put 4 GPL-4D batteries (12v) the AH is 880
8 6v batteries will be 880 as well.
The electrical diagrams that came with the coach shows 8 interstate 6v GC producing (225AH each) which results in 900AH total, OR
4 GPL-4D producing 880AH.
A battery shop in Winnipeg has GPL-4D equivalent that produce 230AH each for a reasonable price. Total for them vs total for 8 Trojans is similar.
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on a separate thought I want to try the small positive cable to see if it the power for the Genset start. if it is there may be enough cable to move it to the back battery bay and hook up to the chassis batteries.
Jeff