BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Bill Sprague on November 05, 2018, 03:03:10 PM
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Bill,
Where do you go to get 5% bio every fill-up?
Steve
Steve,
So far, every fuel station I've been in has B5 or straight. But, B20 is not a problem if there is no other choice.
The Mercedes information is written by marketing people or lawyers. In other words, it is a little fuzzy. They try to explain that you should avoid anything above B5. Then they say not to worry about for the occasional fill up if nothing else is available. After that, they say if you are stuck using B20 (6% to 20%) consistently that you need to watch your oil level more closely, change your oil more often and change your fuel filter more often.
So far (since July) we've only seen B20 in one town at the car pumps. It was a Safeway in Madras, OR. Every other station in town had B5. We've not yet driven through California or any of the midwest corn states.
Another odd (to me) thing is that Mercedes has the oil change at 20K miles! If you use a little B20 you are supposed to change oil more often. Twice as often is still 10K miles. Dave Atherton does it every 7500 miles. The German engineered oil filter is a PITA, but I'll get used to it!
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Bill,
Must be an OR thing. I normally see up to 20% (Petro/Flying J seem to be the worst). Loves says they limit content to 15% max. .....
Steve,
Returning from Farmington to Washington, we drove through New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada and Oregon. All the diesel pumps we stopped at had the B5 sticker. Only in Madras did we see an exception.
It is probably not a surprise, but I'm participating in some small rig forums where the chassis is a Mercedes Sprinter. (Winnebago Navion/View, PleasureWay, LTV Unity and Tiffin Wayfarer) Many small rig buyers have never pumped diesel before, have read their owners manual and panic when they can't find B5 stickers!
Reading between the lines on those forums, the "problem" states are California and a corn state, maybe Wisconsin.
Maybe it is different in the truck lanes, but the car lanes don't seem to have much B20.
Are you finding B20 is more common than B5? Where?
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Bill,
I'm seeing it at the large truck stops. My rig is too big to use an auto style station and pumping 75 gal through their pumps takes forever.
Steve
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Oregon’s as well as many other states’ mandate is 5%. Portland tried to regulate at 10%, but I don’t think it passed. Some Portland outlets carry only 10%. Vehicles under 26000lbs avoid the 34cent excise tax when buying 20% biodiesel. It’s very possible the accepted standard at some commercial pumps is B20, which is why Steve ran into it so much, but I didn’t see any regulation to that affect. At Pacific Pride I’ve only seen B5, and a brief search of their statewide locations shows no B20. The link below is exemplary but certainly not complete, given there’s a lot more than just 4 PPride outlets here.
https://biodiesel.org/using-biodiesel/finding-biodiesel/retail-locations/biodiesel-retailer-listings?ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder2_C001_RadGrid1ChangePage=106
Joel
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Gentleman, Bio-fuel 5 % yes I do understand few states have good fuel and they even pump your
fuel great. With my little motorhome I do not use the truck pumps. And guess what bio fuel 5 %
To 20 % that all you can find. I do not have a problem changing engine oil and filter along with
fuel filter and oil sample. The objective for myself I’m not parked along the side of road changing
a fuel filter in heavy traffic or rain. Oil,samples come back clean. Yes I do all my own service and
changing fuel filter at every service. Understanding electronic engines the fuel system is the heart
With any Diesel engine for trouble free operation. Again today’s diesel fuels has slipped into dark
ages. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave I come down from New Hampshire to Tennessee so far and have changed my fuel filters three times so far.I'm too big to use anything but truck stops and getting good at changing filters much to my chagrin.After the second one I buy two at a time and the Cat dealer near where I am is about to make another sale for two more.It's getting frustrating because I figured by the second or third fill I would have burned any crap out of the tank by now.I fill up when half a tank because it takes so long so do you think thats why I am still fouling filters because I don't let it get low enough to get all new fuel.
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Joe,
Daves the authority on this but 3 filter from NH to TN is not caused by bio IMHO. I suspect you may have a deteriorating fuel line that is causing the filters to clog so quickly. http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,5329.msg39993.html#msg39993
Steve
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Joe, your problem may not be the fuel filter, I see you have a C-12 engine . Before I rule out
The fuel filter did you change out your primary water/ fuel filter that is the first fuel filter that
Is located between the fuel tank and fuel transfer pump on front of engine. That fuel filter that
suction before transfer pump your secondary fuel filter 1R-0749 is under pressure I assume is what you been changing.
Let us figure out both primary and secondary fuel filters are changed out and are Caterpillar filters
and new, but problem is still present. There is a check valve on the bottom side of the secondary
1R-0749 filter housing that is not seating and not allowing fuel pressure to stay constant pressure in
Fuel manifold ( how this valve works excess fuel in manifold returns to fuel tank by opening but does
not seat back fully because build up of diesel fuel fines in system over time ). If you go to Ask Dave
Technical section or maybe some can help you, there is a picture of the secondary filter base showing
this check valve and the part number of which there is a service bulletin on upgrade of this valve
as I have posted. Bio-fuel problem on C-12 is very unlikely because the way fuel system is set up.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Hi gentleman,I have only been changing the secondary fuel filter since I saw no water in the primary so I will try that also and have installed a new secondary filter.I will read the referenced post on Ask Dave and do that as well whether I need to or not to eliminate that possibility. Thanks for all the info I learn on this site. Great bunch of people here👍
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Joe, forget one more thing and again in troubleshooting problems I try to suggest doing all
simple things first. What I forget to mention fuel tank vent, did you notice at anytime when
you stopped for fuel after this problem started opening fuel cap and hearing a whooshing
sound once fuel cap loosen up. Reason I mention this if fuel tank vent is plugged the engine
power and shut down in just like a bad fuel filter. Again how this happens the excess fuel from
engine to fuel tank via the return line will pressure the fuel tank with vent plugged and the
Fuel transfer cannot draw fuel with vacuum over coming the fuel transfer pump and engine
slowly run out of fuel. Sorry I forget to mention this but is more common than a person would
think. Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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Dave I read the post on check valve in fuel related posts and did not see the picture or part replacement number for a new check valve.I am in Sevierville Tennessee near a Cat Dealer and would like to get that part while here can you tell me the part to ask for or will the dealer know by my engine serial #? which is 2KS59180.Also I don't believe I have ever heard the sound you mentioned regarding the vent line.I do have a hard time filling fuel but from what I see on this forum I have what almost all others have said is a common problem so just take it slow as others do.
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Joe the information on Ask Dave location page 2 under heading heading C-12 Won’t Start
January 27,2018. Has picture so you you can see location and what check valve looks like.
This is the Cat Part number 238-0296 Check Valve, need also 6V-4589 O-Ring.
Note: this problem is also related to hard starting or no start, the old part was called a check
valve and the new updated part is called a valve which has been improved.
Dave Atherton Reired Cat Mechanic
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Joe,
There is one more possibility for your problem, and that is microbial growth in the fuel tank. You can usually identify this issue by looking at the pre-filter screen (plastic column just before the primary filter) on your Racor primary fuel filter. If there is a dark film covering the stainless steel screen inside the pre-filter, you have a microbe (diesel algae) growth problem. Another method of identifying this issue is to cut open the old fuel filter (especially the primary), and see what is causing the clogging issue. If you have this problem, you either need fuel polishing (common in marine applications with high humidity and very large fuel tanks), or pour a biocide diesel fuel additive in you fuel tank to kill the microbes, and change fuel filters as needed until they are all gone.
To let you know what level of fuel filtration you have, the primary pre-filer is 200 microns, the primary filter is 30 microns, and the Cat secondary filter is 2 microns. So as you can see if you get fuel with fine dirt in it, it will go right through the primary filters and end up trapped in the secondary filter, but microbes will usually clog the primary filter.
Gerald
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Thanks for that information gentlemen I have ordered the new parts and they should be here today and Gerald I will put the fuel additive in also since that might very well be the case along with the check valve and since it’s also eliminating another possibility I will elect to use the advice which will probably all combined fix my issue. Thanks all again
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Good to see you are moving soon but appears we will not get to see you at Quartzsite this year.
In regard to the microbial potential that is quite a rare situation with the fuel we get today, even if it is stored over time. You should take the filters and analyze what is actually causing your particular situation so not only do you know but can give us insight. Cut away pictures can be sent to Dave Atherton for his review and comment and if filters are not indicated then the check valve can be singled out as the culprit for your situation.
Have a safe trip south.
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Joe, check into the Power Service products “Bio-Kleen” and “Clear Diesel”. Power Service is a good company with great customer service and advice, and I’ve used their products for years with no fuel problems. You’d use the Bio-Kleen first to kill existing algae, then the Clear Diesel to help disperse and remove it. There are other brands of similar products available. But a fuel polish like Gerald speaks to may be necessary regardless, if the situation is very bad.
Algae forms on water in the tank. The water usually comes from the coach being parked for long periods with the tank partially full, especially in humid areas or where temperatures have changed a lot daily. The water condenses out on the tank walls when ambient temperatures cool them, then the condensate goes to the tank bottom where algae can begin and thrive. The best preventative is to always store the rig with a full fuel tank, so moist air can’t occupy any room in it.
Joel
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Joel I did make the mistake of sitting all summer with a near empty tank and thats why when Gerald brought that up I thought it makes sense so I am trying all remidies. I am sitting for a few weeks waiting for some veneer and cabinet work so I won't know for awhile how it all pans out . In the meantime I will change the filters,check valve and put additive while I sit and see what happens,as to Doug's suggestion it's too late to cut out the old filter since I have disposed of it but that's good info,never even crossed my mind to do that but no one ever said I was the sharpest knife in the drawer either. thanks to all and I'll report my progress when I get to Arizona in a few weeks(fingers crossed)
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Just in case anyone was interested I ended up after changing all filters including air filter and check valve still having fuel problems so went to Premier Freightliner in Oklahoma to have a tech look at it and he discovered I had so much metal flakes in the pre filter the screen was slightly collapsed.I never knew you were supposed to be able to see inside the plastic column or that there was a screen inside as Gerald alluded to in his post.Really showing my ignorance here.Since it's a part they don't stock it they put me up for the night while they overnighted it and installed it in quick fashion so I was on my way.Only $30.00 for overnight shipping I thought was very reasonable and they were great to deal with.Tech said it was a wonder it ran at all.Spoke with Dave Atherton and he told me to get rid of the Racor which is in my plans.So a happy ending which I thought I would share for all who helped me and thanks.As to the metal flakes the tech said it must be coming from the tank so whoever had the coach before me must have had rust in it from not keeping the tanks full and told me to keep an eye on it and get a spare preflight.
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Joe, it is my suggestion with your Caterpillar C-12 Engine. The engine was built and tested and
shipped with all OEM Caterpillar filters and builder removed the OEM Caterpillar filter setup and
replaced with a aftermarket filter setup. this subject has been around the block with very good
Pro and Con input ( which is better OEM or Aftermarket equipment ). As I suggested to you stay
with OEM Caterpillar parts. There is a misunderstanding about just how the fuel system on the
Caterpillar C-10 and up which includes the C-12 is different than the Caterpillar C-9 engines and
down. I have posted several concerns on preventive maintenance because of the extreme high
repair cost that can be reduced. Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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Joe, When you replace the filter to a CAT first listen to the engine run and then listen to the engine run after you change to CAT filter. Our C-12 changed from very noisy pops, clicking, sucking sounds to run without any of those sounds. I always thought that was due to the way a diesel sounded when it ran.
Found out that all that music was actually coming from the engine when it was trying to get fuel to run properly - that is air does not run well in a diesel engine and was why it was making so much noise.
Not sure of your fuel line set up from tank to filter, then filter to engine, so talk to Dave in that regard if you have not. We on our 2004 only had to change the hose from filter to the engine, little over 2' of hose, as it was originally a hydraulic line that Dave felt was deteriorating and needed replacement along with filter system. I have learned to always take Dave's suggestions as he has the CAT data to back them up and that always has given us a full piece of mind on a very expensive part of our coach.
The CAT water fuel separator unit is a much simpler set up and eliminates a lot of future problems and maintenance. There is no maintenance to the CAT system other than changing the filter when needed. You will see how much simpler after you remove the existing one.
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Good morning and hope everyone had a very nice holiday. One thing I would to call attention to
as I read the forum and the ads at page bottom. The Caterpillar electronic engines which we run
in our motorhomes are rated at build for bio-fuel up to B-20 ( Ref Ask Dave in technical ection.)
Where this is going, seeing all these products on the market today, power boost, injection cleaners
on and on. Both Caterpillar and Cummins engines do not recommend any additives run in there
engines. The injection system on both brand engines and the injectors themselves run at a very
close tight spec., Change to diesel fuel by thinning will result injector wear or sticking. Injectors
cleaners etc. Power boost creates change in the burn in cylinder ( heat change ) creates many
different problem over extended periods of time and your injection system. Depends on who a
person talks to but information is clearly spelled our with both engine builders technical information.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic